[COMM] Flusterstorm

[zimagic]

From: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329831

Flusterstorm  
Instant - Rare
Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless it's controller pays  .
Storm

Seems acceptable anti-storm tech. Who's going to keep an extra 5-10 mana open?

[DubDub]

Does the name of thread need to be changed?  Flutterstorm <> Flusterstorm...  I was expecting something to do with creating bird tokens like Flurry of Wings or Dovescape.

On topic.  That card seems good.  The instant or sorcery restriction may prove too limiting though.  For Legacy it's a 1CC counter against Show and Tell, Natural Order, Reanimate or Storm decks etc that Mental Misstep doesn't stop (or not completely).  For Vintage it seems decent because the storm count is generally higher in Vintage than elsewhere, though there are obviously bomb cards outside of instants and sorceries (Oath, Jace, artifacts).  I like that it keeps at least marginal usefulness against Chalice@1 as well (since the copies will not be countered, as they're not cast), though the decks that play Chalice@1 aren't likely to cast instants or sorceries.

This is probably better than Dispel in the majority of the situations you'd want either, due to the ability to hit sorceries.

[zimagic]

Does the name of thread need to be changed?  Flutterstorm <> Flusterstorm...  I was expecting something to do with creating bird tokens like Flurry of Wings or Dovescape.

Sorry. I was writing too quickly, it's changed to the spoiled name now.

[bactgudz]

This is way better than REB/pyroblast at winning counter wars, and is always at least a spell pierce against instants/sorceries since the fact that you are countering a spell means storm count >=1.  Additionally, unlike spell pierce, this cannot simply be force'd, pierce'd or misstep'ed back.

This thing is just so absurd.

I mean consider the following hands:
Me: Mana Drain, Flusterf**k
3 lands

Opponent:
Tinker, Mana Crypt, Force+blue card, force+blue card, Spell pierce, Mana Drain
4 Lands.

Isn't is absolutely absurd that I win this battle?

[Meddling Mike]

Assuming this card is the real deal, I think it's main competition is probably Spell Pierce. If I understand the Storm mechanic correctly, This spell should always have a minimum of two copies, they have the same casting cost and they both can't counter creatures.

Pros of Spell Pierce:
-Counters Planeswalkers, Enchantments and Artifacts.

Pros of Flusterstorm:
-Storm makes it more resistant to counters.
-Can hit multiple targets (i.e. Business Spell, opponent taps out for Mana Drain, Instant Business Spell, FoW, Flusterstorm to counter FoW and Drain)
-Severely limits the effectiveness of ETW, Mind's Desire, Tendrils of Agony and Brain Freeze as they can only resolve as many copies as they have mana available and they should need 2 mana to resolve the last copy since the number of Flusterstorm copies = Number of other storm spell copies + 1.
-Can easily require more than 2 colorless mana from an opponent for their spell to resolve.

The big problem with this card is that it's probably 100% dead in the workshop matchup, where Spell Pierce would not be and workshops lately make up too big a portion of the metagame to be ignored. I think this could still see some sideboard play as anti-combo card that could also be brought in for the control mirror to win counter wars.

[Daenyth]

This card will be in the "Political Puppets" deck.

[The Atog Lord]

Excellent analysis, Mike. If this card is real, then we can certainly add it to our list of Vintage mid-level counters to keep in mind for future use (like Spell Pierce and Annul). I think this is fairly powerful, though I don't know if it will see Eternal play. I'll note, however, that countering Storm spells, and being able to flat-out win counter wars with complicated stacks, are both quite strong.

[Daenyth]

What do you guys think about the utility of this card used by a storm player? As you say, it can win counter wars pretty well. Could it be used as an offensive counter when going off, or would the U be better used with Pierce?

[bactgudz]

What do you guys think about the utility of this card used by a storm player? As you say, it can win counter wars pretty well. Could it be used as an offensive counter when going off, or would the U be better used with Pierce?

it wins defensive counterwars...it's not much better than any other counter in an offensive one.
If you're forcing something through, aiming all the copies at their counters, then they can still aim a counter at the original threat and just ignore flusterstorm and the only value you've gained over another type of counter in this scenario is possibly some mana drain mana denial.

I wouldn't say it's worse than pierce for a storm player except against MUD, since the storm player is most likely only worried about instants and sorceries, it is at least as good as spell pierce in those cases.

[Smmenen]

This card is INsane!  I love this kinda card.

[DubDub]

What do you guys think about the utility of this card used by a storm player? As you say, it can win counter wars pretty well. Could it be used as an offensive counter when going off, or would the U be better used with Pierce?

it wins defensive counterwars...it's not much better than any other counter in an offensive one.
If you're forcing something through, aiming all the copies at their counters, then they can still aim a counter at the original threat and just ignore flusterstorm and the only value you've gained over another type of counter in this scenario is possibly some mana drain mana denial.

I wouldn't say it's worse than pierce for a storm player except against MUD, since the storm player is most likely only worried about instants and sorceries, it is at least as good as spell pierce in those cases.

I don't agree that it's categorically better for defense than offense.  It depends on what the stack looks like.  If the stack is (my spells in bold):

<Already resolved: Dark Ritual>
Necropotence
Response to Necro - Mana Drain - targeting Necropotence
Response to Drain - Ancestral Recall - targeting myself
Response to Recall - Force of Will - targeting Recall

Then I would 100% want Flusterstorm in hand and in my mana pool.  At such a point not even Mindbreak Trap would help me since the trap condition has not been satisfied by my opponent.

It's only better on defense than offense in a context with only sorcery speed offensive cards being playable (to some extent, including Gush, since you need four lands in play to facilitate two Gushes on the stack at the same time controlled by the same player).  If, plucking an example at random, an instant speed threat like Fact or Fiction were available unrestricted then more complicated stacks like the above might become more prevalent, and Flusterstorm would correspondingly be considered more powerful.

[Troy_Costisick]

What do you guys think about the utility of this card used by a storm player? As you say, it can win counter wars pretty well. Could it be used as an offensive counter when going off, or would the U be better used with Pierce?

Does a good job of countering Mindbreak Trap.

[TopSecret]

I think not countering Oath or artifacts is huge, but that besides those two this card is pretty effing amazing.

I could see this being a good sideboard card for control mirrors.

[DubDub]

What do you guys think about the utility of this card used by a storm player? As you say, it can win counter wars pretty well. Could it be used as an offensive counter when going off, or would the U be better used with Pierce?

Does a good job of countering Mindbreak Trap.

I don't understand this comment.  So does Dispel.  So does Spell Pierce if they can't afford the .  The value is in potentially countering other spells also on the stack trying to stop you at the same time it counters Mindbreak Trap itself.

[Eastman]

I think this might be better than REB as a sideboard option for control mirrors, for some of the reasons that have already been mentioned.  Cool card but as with anything new will have to wait and see how it plays. 

[DubDub]

I wonder if there will eventually be a way to get copies of this in foil.  I would say it could be an FNM promo (though, those are sometimes a bit ugly) except that it won't be standard legal unless it's printed in a future set (OMG, return of storm would be amazing).

[Daenyth]

I don't think wizards will ever return storm to expansion sets.

[DubDub]

I don't think wizards will ever return storm to expansion sets.

It was really just Mind's Desire that was truly broken.  That's the only one banned in Legacy or restricted in Vintage.  As far as I can recall Desire wasn't even banned in old extended.  Certainly the printing of Tendrils of Agony has had an enormous impact on the landscape of both Eternal formats, but not to the point of a ban/restriction.  Empty the Warrens has had lesser impact on any format, along with Dragonstorm.

It's not like categorically Storm spells are broken.  There's just a finer edge they'd have to walk to do them right.

However, given their stance on Combo more recently (as evidenced by the printing of Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm now, among others), I am inclined to agree with you.

[2nd_lawl]

i think it is pretty funny that if this becomes a staple sideboard card in legacy, everyone will have to buy 2x commander decks each.

[TopSecret]

It doesn't counter equipment, vial, or dudes, so I think it being super duper staple is missed.
But yeah, this thing is definitely not useless in legacy.

[honestabe]

I think this might be better than REB as a sideboard option for control mirrors, for some of the reasons that have already been mentioned.  Cool card but as with anything new will have to wait and see how it plays. 

Eh, it can't counter or kill Jace like REB can, which I find kinda huge

[Meddling Mike]

I think this might be better than REB as a sideboard option for control mirrors, for some of the reasons that have already been mentioned.  Cool card but as with anything new will have to wait and see how it plays. 

Eh, it can't counter or kill Jace like REB can, which I find kinda huge

I'm with Dave on this one. I certainly don't think that it's strictly better than REB, but I think when you consider all the upsides of Flusterstorm in the control mirror/storm matchup it's better.

Pros of Flusterstorm:
-It's blue, so you can pitch it to Force of Will.
-It's blue, so you can cast it with blue instead of red mana. This makes it accessible to some decks that REB would not be an option. You also don't need to open yourself up to wasteland by fetching a Volcanic Island rather than a basic island.
-It counters non-blue instants and sorceries. The list is extensive.
-It has the possibility of countering multiple spells, whether it be a complicated stack or a storm spell.
-Storm makes it more resistant to being countered itself.

Pros of REB:
-Counters the spell regardless of the opponent's available mana/spells played this turn.
-Counters blue artifacts, creatures, planeswalkers and enchantments. There are a good number of examples here, but the only one that really jumps out at me is Jace. I could easily be overlooking something, but there aren't many other notably relevant cards I know of that fit into this category.
-Destroys blue permanents that have already hit the board. Again, Jace is the standout.
-It's red, if you're playing a deck that wants access to red more than blue then this is obviously a plus.

For me, the situations necessary here of REB requiring the spell to be blue and the Flusterstorm requiring them not to have enough open mana is probably a wash. From there we're looking at REB's ability to deal with Jace v. Flusterstorm's ability to deal with Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will, Vampiric Tutor, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony, Mind's Desire, etc. Let's tack on that it's more resistant to counters, can potentially counter multiple spells, pitches to Force of Will and doesn't require red mana and I'm inclined to give it the nod.

[gkraigher]

Wow, first mental misstep now this.  This card is absolutely bonkers.  See it being played in 1-2 lots, over spell pierce or mana drain.  Will definitely see play in many blue decks and boards.  I'm very curious how much the landscape has changed in vintage with the recent printings of these two cards.  Workshop based decks do dodge both cards, so plan accordingly. 

Very good card in legacy too. 

[brokenbacon]

Eh. I'm not a big fan of this at all. I always found REB to do the job with extreme efficiency. Against Storm, if you want a more reliable counter, then play Mindbreak Trap. Spell Pierce is almost always going to trump this card, and Spell Pierce really isn't very good these days. Basically, if a card is really underwhelming against Shops right now it probably isn't worth a slot in the main (Thoughtseize is an exception).

[Stormanimagus]

Eh. I'm not a big fan of this at all. I always found REB to do the job with extreme efficiency. Against Storm, if you want a more reliable counter, then play Mindbreak Trap. Spell Pierce is almost always going to trump this card, and Spell Pierce really isn't very good these days. Basically, if a card is really underwhelming against Shops right now it probably isn't worth a slot in the main (Thoughtseize is an exception).

This card is heads above Spell Pierce in my opinion. How can you say this is better than REB or even Mindbreak Trap for that matter? First off,

Key cards that this counters that REB does not:

Dark Ritual
DT/VT
Yawgmoth's Will

Second,

This is Blue and can thus pitch to FoW

Third,

This card has storm so in the most obvious turn 1 example:

your opponent casts Ancestral and you respond with this guy. Storm is always at least 2 and thus your opponent would then need double FoW to protect their ancestral.
How you can say this is bad is beyond me. Niche yes, but bad it is not.

-Storm

[Ten-Ten]

Does a good job of countering Mindbreak Trap.

We can say the same about Nix  
Mindbreak trap does a good job at "countering" flusterstorm also.
I mean, up against a storm deck stifle would be better than flusterstorm, no?
This card* is like no other counter!(except FoW)...its way better
 I love this card. Allows craziness for a single  

edit: *Flusterstorm

[brokenbacon]

Eh. I'm not a big fan of this at all. I always found REB to do the job with extreme efficiency. Against Storm, if you want a more reliable counter, then play Mindbreak Trap. Spell Pierce is almost always going to trump this card, and Spell Pierce really isn't very good these days. Basically, if a card is really underwhelming against Shops right now it probably isn't worth a slot in the main (Thoughtseize is an exception).

This card is heads above Spell Pierce in my opinion. How can you say this is better than REB or even Mindbreak Trap for that matter? First off,

Key cards that this counters that REB does not:

Dark Ritual
DT/VT
Yawgmoth's Will

Second,

This is Blue and can thus pitch to FoW

Third,

This card has storm so in the most obvious turn 1 example:

your opponent casts Ancestral and you respond with this guy. Storm is always at least 2 and thus your opponent would then need double FoW to protect their ancestral.
How you can say this is bad is beyond me. Niche yes, but bad it is not.

-Storm

I believe that countering a key sorcery or instant such as Rit, Vampiric/Demonic, or Yawg Will is means to an end (with the exception of Will). Spell Pierce counters all of these spells as well, and it counters Jace, Vault, Key, Lotus, and countless other important noncreature permanents.
Your example of the turn one A Call is admittedly a good use of Flusterstorm vs. REB. However, this is not something I would want to dedicate a SB slot to. Here's an example of a controlling SB these days.
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Nature's Claim
1 Forest
2 REB
2 Mystic Remora
1 Doom Blade

I would play this in any Tezz list. REBs play the double job of beating any blue deck and also destroying many key creatures in Fish.
Honestly, my argument boils down to a couple of points:
1. REB destroys Jace. Jace is insanity when resolved. Flusterstorm does not counter or destroy Jace.
2. Look at any prevalent Control deck. Their major spells (Tinker, A Call, Force, Drain, Jace) are all blue. REB hits blue cards.
3. Late game Flusterstorm example:
Opponent plays Tinker with 3 mana open, no cards in hand.
You look at Flusterstorm sadly and wish it was a REB.

Seriously. It's not worth the time. REB is just overall better.
In Legacy well hell yes it's great against Storm decks!!! But like Mental Misstep, in Vintage this is a card that does not have a home in a world dominated by Shops.

[Troy_Costisick]

This card has the same weakness that Mindbreak Trap, Stifle, and all the rest have: Duress rips it out of your hand. 

[Ten-Ten]

This card has the same weakness that Mindbreak Trap, Stifle, and all the rest have: Duress rips it out of your hand. 

...good point. 
unless you counter Duress with mental misstep 

[hitman]

I don't think this card does anything a combination of Duress and Red Elemental Blast could do better and across more matchups.