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Author Topic: [Free Article] Vintage Advantage - Restricted Access  (Read 5324 times)
GrandpaBelcher
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« on: September 25, 2013, 09:38:03 am »

http://legitmtg.com/competitive/the-vintage-advantage-restricted-access/

I take a look at the restricted list, its creation and contents, and what it means for Vintage as a format.
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 12:48:46 pm »

Great article. I would definitely recommend this to anyone getting into Vintage.
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 01:23:37 pm »

Burning Long pilots lock themselves under Necro?  Huh?  That's never happened to me.  I've never locked myself under Necro.  I've been killed with Necro in play, but if you play not terribly that shouldn't ever happen.
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2013, 01:34:57 pm »

Quote
if you play not terribly that shouldn't ever happen

Yeah, seriously, what the hell are these people doing?!?

Step 1: play hyper linear deck
Step 2: stack your deck
Step 3: profit
[Step 4: write article about profit]

Amirite?
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2013, 01:45:43 pm »

Quote
if you play not terribly that shouldn't ever happen

Yeah, seriously, what the hell are these people doing?!?

Step 1: play hyper linear deck
Step 2: stack your deck
Step 3: profit
[Step 4: write article about profit]

Amirite?
How is Goblin recruiter being banned in legacy (there's already intense discussion on this at MTGsource) related to this? Wink
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26730-Is-Goblin-Recruiter-actually-too-powerful-for-the-format/page4
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 01:59:12 pm by John Cox » Logged

Smmenen
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2013, 02:25:32 pm »

Quote
if you play not terribly that shouldn't ever happen

Yeah, seriously, what the hell are these people doing?!?

Step 1: play hyper linear deck
Step 2: stack your deck
Step 3: profit
[Step 4: write article about profit]

Amirite?

Your initial error and what reveals your lack of understanding is your assumption that Burning Long is a 'hyper-linear deck.'  It's the exact opposite.  Burning Long is a very non-linear deck, and that's part of its success.  The myriad routes to victory and strategic endgames are as diverse as anything in the format.  Oath, Wheel, Tinker, Burning Wish for Show and Tell, Burning Wish for ETW, etc. all offer very different tactical and strategic possibilities.  That's probably why you underestimated it in the first place, and said, incorrectly, I might add, that Burning Long would be part of a long graveyard of 'failed' combo decks I've created.  I'm not even sure what that meant, since the combo decks that I created and promoted as tournament viable decks, like Maniac Doomsday, Burning Long, and Grim Long in the past, have all had lots of Top 8 appearances and tournament victories, no less this one.  

Secondly, anyone who Necro-locks themselves with Burning Long is doing it wrong.   I've lost many games with Necro in play, but it's usually because they Tinker + Time Walk, Key + Vault, or otherwise combo out.  I am being 100% sincere when I say that in testing and tournaments (can be verified by reading my myriad tournament reports), I have never Necrolocked *myself*.   There are so many tutors in the deck (including Burning Wishes) that this simply doesn't happen if you play well.  It also means knowing when *not* to play Necro to put yourself in that situation.  For example, I sideboard out Necro against Workshop decks, as detailed in my Burning Tendrils bible.  Against Workshop decks, Necro is a liability for precisely that reason.  You also don't play Necro if you are in danger of Locking yourself.

The last time I was Necro locked was when I was playing Brian Demars Cobra Jace deck.  That was at least in 2011.

The suggestion that one need to "stack" your deck to avoid being Necro locked is ridiculous given the myriad tutors, draw and general search capacity of this deck and can only be advanced if one incorrectly believe this deck to be as linear as you suggest. It is not.  You are using the term "hyper-linear" either incorrectly or loosely.  Dredge is hyper-linear -- Restricted list combo is generally not, and this deck is especially not.  


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« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2013, 02:38:18 pm »

Quote
if you play not terribly that shouldn't ever happen

Yeah, seriously, what the hell are these people doing?!?

Step 1: play hyper linear deck
Step 2: stack your deck
Step 3: profit
[Step 4: write article about profit]

Amirite?

Step 5: Charge people for article
Step 6: Profit


Long folds to Chalice 2 or Spell Snare pretty hard. It's not as linear in practice as it appears in theory, but still has an incredibly hard time dealing with Misstep+Counter or Rod/Sphere+Waste.
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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2013, 02:39:42 pm »

Guys, let's please keep on point here; this thread should be about discussing Nat's article, not the merits and pratfalls of for-profit writing.
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2013, 02:44:05 pm »


Long folds to Chalice 2 or Spell Snare pretty hard. It's not as linear in practice as it appears in theory, but still has an incredibly hard time dealing with Misstep+Counter or Rod/Sphere+Waste.

Chalice @ 2 is why I play 3 Nature's Claims in the sideboard and rely on plays like ETW.  I'm not even sure how the deck appears "linear" in theory.  That distinction doesn't make sense unless one's 'theory' is bad.  

And, I'm not sure what you mean by 'has an incredibly hard time dealing with Misstep + Counter."   The deck can mow over a Misstep and another counter without much difficulty, like Oath + Draw7.  Rod is devastating, but the 4 Hurkyls + 4 Ancient Tomb plan is pretty effective against it.  
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2013, 02:46:46 pm »

Over the years of playing vintage I have definitely won a lot of games even after a Necro has resolved and went to work. Sometimes necro ends up being followed up by a draw 7 and half the time I can counter key spells and lock them under there own necro. This can be in part to me primarily playing landstill with 14-17 counters in the 75...but getting locked under necro does and can happen. This is a silly thing to deny...

Luckily landstill doesn't see a lot of play ooutside of a handful of players. Counters plus cages and mana denial make long pilots cringe...
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2013, 02:48:38 pm »

Over the years of playing vintage I have definitely won a lot of games even after a Necro has resolved and went to work. Sometimes necro ends up being followed up by a draw 7 and half the time I can counter key spells and lock them under there own necro. This can be in part to me primarily playing landstill with 14-17 counters in the 75...but getting locked under necro does and can happen. This is a silly thing to deny...

"half the time" you lock them under their own Necro?   That seems pretty insane to assert 50% of the time an opponent plays Necro you lock them under it.

I'm not denying it happens -- I'm saying it shouldn't ever happen if the player isn't a dunce.  Therefore, it's not something that should be described as a risk of Burning Long.  That's an error on the author's part here.  Yes, the deck can fizzle with a Draw7 or a Mind's Desire, but Necro locking isn't a risk if Necro is manipulated properly.

Empirical evidence: I have published no less 3 reports on 5-6 different tournaments with Burning Long over the last 12 months, and there isn't a single game recounted or covered where I Necro locked myself.  
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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2013, 02:50:54 pm »

Half the time may be slightly high so I'll go on the record and say 40% of the time. This (like I stated) is often due to the combo player using a draw 7 or something and my deck can just say no to most of what combo tries to do...

That being said necro shouldn't be resolving haha
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 02:56:11 pm by oshkoshhaitsyosh » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2013, 02:56:08 pm »

Even if your deck had 20+ counterspells, a Necro pilot, using Necro properly, should have little difficulty overwhelming the counter-war if they know what they are doing.  Sadly, very few apparently do.  If we are ever playing the Long v. Landstill matchup, you should let my Necro resolve so we can see what happens Smile
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« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2013, 03:00:20 pm »

Even if your deck had 20+ counterspells, a Necro pilot, using Necro properly, should have little difficulty overwhelming the counter-war if they know what they are doing.  Sadly, very few apparently do.  If we are ever playing the Long v. Landstill matchup, you should let my Necro resolve so we can see what happens Smile
Haha Necro would be lucky to resolve 1 out of 10 games if you're lucky...I wouldn't mind showing you that landstill smashes burning oath in a ton series consistently though  Very Happy haha that would be fun
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« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2013, 03:54:05 pm »

Good article Nat! I'm glad you're taking time to address Vintage through a series of grass root articles.

Have you ever thought about an advanced article series after you touch basis on all fundamentals of Vintage? I think it would make a good source for beginning and progressing Vintage Mages.
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2013, 04:25:37 pm »

Thanks for those articles. I like your "no-nonsense" perspective, as well as the nod given to innovating uses of existing cards (aka "tech") in Vintage in this article.
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 04:39:11 pm »

Actually, Necropotence is a liability against Landstill.  You play it, and they drop a Standstill. You're sculpted 7 against their stacked 10 isn't a place you want to be in, especially when you have to pass to rebuild and they can just drop in a 2nd Standstill.
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2013, 08:37:57 pm »

Actually, Necropotence is a liability against Landstill.  You play it, and they drop a Standstill. You're sculpted 7 against their stacked 10 isn't a place you want to be in, especially when you have to pass to rebuild and they can just drop in a 2nd Standstill.


This is getting off topic, but that's exceedingly easy to disprove with a counter-factual test.  If that were true, then a combo pilot should not play Lotus--> Necro on Turn 1.  I contend that if Necro resolves on Turn 1 against Landstill in that fashion, the Combo pilot should win the vast majority of the time regardless of what Landstill does.  This is an empirical question that can be easily tested, but I strongly believe you would be proven wrong.  

On topic:

Nat, Flash is restricted because it is in the "unfun" category, like Trinisphere.
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2013, 08:47:50 pm »

So obviously the trick is to not let necro resolve being the landstill pilot lol. But in a case that it does resolve that is by no means game over. If necro is followed up by a draw 7 that can fuel me with some counters or what if the landstill player wastes/strips a land and uses Explosives to clear moxen. Then the combo pilot sometimes must dig deeper. I then can follow up with standstill. The combo player casts duress into the standstill and I draw misstep and trap. What then? I misstep duress then combo gets blown out by trap. My point of this is there are different things that can happen under a resolved necro that can hinder the combo pilot...

If you dig aggressively with necro then burn spells become relevant along with factories. I am by no means saying that a resolved necro is bad or anything.  Necro resolving wins more often then not that's a given. But when I sit down across from a burning long deck I am pretty happy myself...
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 08:51:07 pm by oshkoshhaitsyosh » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2013, 10:21:06 pm »

So obviously the trick is to not let necro resolve being the landstill pilot lol. But in a case that it does resolve that is by no means game over. If necro is followed up by a draw 7 that can fuel me with some counters or what if the landstill player wastes/strips a land and uses Explosives to clear moxen. Then the combo pilot sometimes must dig deeper. I then can follow up with standstill. The combo player casts duress into the standstill and I draw misstep and trap. What then? I misstep duress then combo gets blown out by trap. My point of this is there are different things that can happen under a resolved necro that can hinder the combo pilot...

If you dig aggressively with necro then burn spells become relevant along with factories. I am by no means saying that a resolved necro is bad or anything.  Necro resolving wins more often then not that's a given. But when I sit down across from a burning long deck I am pretty happy myself...

Against Landstill resolving a t2/3 Necropotence is not nearly as back breaking as it is against UW Bomberman/Angels or Grixis for many of the reasons you outline. The reason behind it is that Standstill creates marginal parity for Necro's draw effect and the deck overloads on Free counters to mitigate the mana restrictions of explosive turns. I've beaten more Necro's than I've lost to on the modified version of Josh's list that I used to run. I've definitely let it resolve with a hand full of counters knowing that the Necro pilot will be forced to lock themselves out of the game.
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2013, 01:28:52 am »

So obviously the trick is to not let necro resolve being the landstill pilot lol. But in a case that it does resolve that is by no means game over. If necro is followed up by a draw 7 that can fuel me with some counters or what if the landstill player wastes/strips a land and uses Explosives to clear moxen. Then the combo pilot sometimes must dig deeper. I then can follow up with standstill. The combo player casts duress into the standstill and I draw misstep and trap. What then? I misstep duress then combo gets blown out by trap. My point of this is there are different things that can happen under a resolved necro that can hinder the combo pilot...

If you dig aggressively with necro then burn spells become relevant along with factories. I am by no means saying that a resolved necro is bad or anything.  Necro resolving wins more often then not that's a given. But when I sit down across from a burning long deck I am pretty happy myself...

Against Landstill resolving a t2/3 Necropotence is not nearly as back breaking as it is against UW Bomberman/Angels or Grixis for many of the reasons you outline.

Sure, it might not be "nearly as back breaking,' but it's still a broken back.  

Resolving Turn 2 Necropotence should result in a win for a competent Combo pilot far more than a loss, as long as the combo pilot is halfway competent.  I would also be delighted to play a T2 Necropotence into a Standstill, because that means that my Landstill opponent has likely tapped down on turn two to cast Standstill, and is now relying on pitch magic to stop Necro.

As Josh mentioned, he would counter Necro in this position, and any control pilot, in a meaningful match against a skilled combo pilot, would do the same. You may draw 3 cards, but I expect to be able to leverage my card advantage into more threats than you can reliably counter, especially if you go the route of playing a second Standstill, which would preclude a Drain on Turn 2-3.

Quote

The reason behind it is that Standstill creates marginal parity for Necro's draw effect and the deck overloads on Free counters to mitigate the mana restrictions of explosive turns.


Except neither part of that statement is accurate.  

Taking the first part: I'm not even sure what "marginal parity'" means here, since that appears to be a contradiction in terms in context.  Yes, Standstill generates card draw, but its far from parity.  And, yes, Landstill has a high counterspell density, but in the first few turns, it also draws alot of non-countermagic (lands, crucibles, Explosives, Bolts, Jaces),  The chances of a Landstill pilot having a sufficient density of counterspells to stop what the Necro player is about to unload is unlikely (although not impossible).  Furthermore, if the Standstill pilot plays another Standstill to draw more cards when the Necropilot goes off, they are almost certainly going to be cutting off a Drain (which is one of the most common counterspells in Landstill).  

And, while Standstill can be chained into Standstill, like a pseudo-Necro, it is different in two respects.  First, it requires mana -- a precious resource at these junctures.  And, second, it has to be drawn.   Playing T2 Standstill and having or drawing another Standstill in your first 12 or so cards is far from a given. 

Second, yes, it has alot of free counters,but I would say it's "overloading" on them.  Josh's NYSE Open deck had 8.  8 is not "overloading" on countermagic, whatever that might mean.   Moreover, 8 free counters in a deck is not enough to stop each of the spells the Necro pilot is about to unload, especialy if they play Standstill, because in a deck of 60 cards, that's one free counter every 7.5 cards.  

Quote
I've beaten more Necro's than I've lost to on the modified version of Josh's list that I used to run.

I have absolutely no doubt of that -- but that just speaks to how bad your opponents were.  I've won countless games in a range of archetypes that I shouldn't have, but for my opponent's being terrible.  

I've seen Dredge pilots lose games they should have won because of missed triggers.   Necropotence is a ridiculously decision-intensive card, and introduces probably more or as many opportunities for error as any card in Magic (you have to decide when to play it, how many cards to set aside, and which to keep, etc).  Cards in that class include Doomsday, Top, Jace, and Gifts.  A non-desperation Necro should never lock its pilot out of the game barring truly unusual circumstances.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 01:46:51 am by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2013, 09:36:44 am »

I would argue the opposite -- that if you never get locked out under Necro, you are not playing the deck optimally.

Being more aggressive with Necro increases your chances of winning by comboing out, and increases also your chance of losing by locking yourself out. There is a tension between these two effects and optimal play is the sweet spot where they cancel each other out. If you are *never* getting locked out, you are not at the sweet spot.
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