- New Slivers

[Protoaddict]

So we now have 6 new slivers and a sliver land in M15 Previews. Are any of these good enough to make slivers viable again?

Of the new cards I think we can remove from discussion the white sliver as it costs 6 and the sliver lord who costs WUBRG. Neither of them win the game enough to see play. I also think the red sliver is forgettable since its just a form of evasion and Galerider sliver is likely better. Of the remaining:

Diffusion Sliver - Similar in function to Crystaline sliver, but mono colored. Considering that slivers have a new rainbow manabase that seems trivial. The ability is good but it has a few weaknesses. 1) Is that you rarely if ever target your own slivers, so hexproof vs Shroud is basically moot. 2) Your opponent can pay a buy out to target which is stronger late game and 3) Abrupt decay does not care which is a big problem. Overall I think not even in the same ballpark as Crystaline sliver, maybe it can serve a role as a 5th crystaline if that ever is needed, but likely it will not be.

Leeching Sliver - Probably the best in the group. It can help get damage though when creatures cannot, stacks with itself and others, and can help get under things like ensnaring bridge in some corner cases. Basically feels like an upgrade to Frenzy sliver since the damage happens one way or another, but frenzy sliver did not see play either. Slivers already have more than enough pump lords in colors its already playing that Pitch to force for this to be relevant in vintage. Legacy this may have a spot if slivers ever do a slight aggro build.

Venom Sliver - Granting deathtouch is redonk in every format but this one. If this thing was 2/2 for it's casting, or even 1 mana it may have been the best thing to fill in a curve somewhere, but right now deathtouch seems silly. It seems more so like it was made to combo with the red sliver, trying to force double blocks into deathtouchers, but in vintage the ability is virtually useless as your slivers are either going to be huge and eat blockers anyways or just not be blocked.

So overall, I think these cards may have potential in other formats, specifically modern but possibly legacy as well, but not so much for vintage as they just don't plug up the holes that the sliver deck has. If we ever do get the mana leak sliver things will be different, but until then Merfolk seem to remain the better option.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Considering that slivers have a new rainbow manabase that seems trivial.

Huge difference between needing one or two rainbow lands. In particular, you want to be able to cast other slivers or fire off a Wasteland.

[MaximumCDawg]

Diffusion is the only new Sliver that is interesting, since it increases your density of shroud-esque slivers.  But that was never really what was holding Slivers back anyway.  There's just nothing they do that other creatures don't do as well or better.  Even the best Sliver, Harmonic, compares unfavorably to Pridemage.

[zeus-online]

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[TheWhiteDragon]

I'm currently working on a slivers list, but the bottom line is that slivers can't hack it in Vintage.  The list is pretty decent in Modern, but that's it.  Wastelands make a rainbow base unreliable, disruption inclusion comes at the cost of sliver density, and maxing out on slivers comes at the cost of your opponent blowing you out quickly.  Also wastelands cost you mana spots which are needed for slivers of multiple colors.  Even vs shops running 4 main harmonics...you need 4+ mana at sourcery speed facing wastelands while you run no basics...you can't win that match.

[JPoJohnson]

I'm currently working on a slivers list, but the bottom line is that slivers can't hack it in Vintage.  The list is pretty decent in Modern, but that's it.  Wastelands make a rainbow base unreliable, disruption inclusion comes at the cost of sliver density, and maxing out on slivers comes at the cost of your opponent blowing you out quickly.  Also wastelands cost you mana spots which are needed for slivers of multiple colors.  Even vs shops running 4 main harmonics...you need 4+ mana at sourcery speed facing wastelands while you run no basics...you can't win that match.

What's the modern list you're testing and what have you tested against?

[TheWhiteDragon]

This was the latest pile I have been testing with:

// Lands
    4  Ancient Ziggurat
    4  Sliver Hive
    4  Cavern of Souls
    2  Mana Confluence
    1  Gemstone Mine
    4  City of Brass
    3  Reflecting Pool

// Creatures
    3  Striking Sliver
    4  Virulent Sliver
    3  Necrotic Sliver
    4  Galerider Sliver
    4  Sliver Hivelord
    3  Manaweft Sliver
    4  Gemhide Sliver
    4  Sliver Legion
    1  Telekinetic Sliver
    2  Predatory Sliver
    3  Sinew Sliver

// Spells
    3  Worship

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Telekinetic Sliver
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 4  Harmonic Sliver
SB: 4  Torpor Orb
SB: 1 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 1  Doom Blade
SB: 2  Summoning Trap


Basically, you drop a couple slivers by turn 2 and try to get a turn 3 Hivelord, then a turn 4 legion and swing.  Once you drop hivelord, they need a miracle to kill your guys, and if you drop legion, your guys are always bigger.  The key is landing one of the 7 gemstone/manawefts and cranking out your WRGUB guys as fast as possible.  There's also the play of just getting a ton of flying, first striking, poison slivers and going over their heads for 10 poison....or dropping a couple pump slivers and beating face with 4 flying, 3/3, first strike slivers.

It's not terrible, by any means.  The trouble is when they can repeatedly answer your first few threats.  If they bolt sliver #1, counter #2, etc...and just keep you off being able to ramp for mana, it can get tough.  Blood moon is also nasty if you don't land a mana sliver - and if they have red, odds are your mana slivers got electrocuted with a lightning bolt.  I tried diffusion sliver, but it's weak and clunky, and they'll just pay 2 to kill him or the mana sliver....or just volcanic fallout/damnation/oblivion stone, etc and wipe out everything and ignore diffusion.  It can be very fast and brutal.  it can also suck wind if they can pick off your early swarm and keep you off 5 mana.

If you land a hivelord, their only shot at beating you is running white and having path to exile.  If you hit 5 mana, their in deep sh!t.  Worship is great as you almost always have at least 1 critter.  If you land manaweft and they let you use it, it's gg.  Cavern of souls helps vs counters if you draw it, but against counter heavy decks, I found summoners trap to be a nice SB card - you'll have one of your 8 lords in the top 7 cards for sure.  There's a lot that can go right with the list, and I find it much more aggressive and brutal than merfolk.  You also have necrotics to handle any problem (telekinetic does the same and can also tap out your opponent's mana base on their upkeep if they're not playing red for instant burn).  4 harmonic in the sb is a nightmare for many decks like affinity, pod, etc.  It can beat just about anything, but it can also lose games to the right strategies.  I originally had syphon slivers vs faster decks, but found worship was just better 99% of the time.

[mmcgeach]

nm. delete me.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Seems like leaving out Demonic Consultation, Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk is an oversight? Maybe some of that Black Lotus action too?

[JPoJohnson]

Seems like leaving out Demonic Consultation, Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk is an oversight? Maybe some of that Black Lotus action too?

He was posting his modern decklist in response to the prior comment.