[Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays # 41: Fate Reforged Set Review

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-41-fate-reforged/

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian review Fate Reforged for Vintage, and analyze the recent Banned and Restricted List updates.

Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 1:19:53 — 66.2MB)

0:01:00: Delver Primer
0:06:30: Vintage Super League: Season 2
0:12:00: Treasure Cruise Restriction
0:24:30: Gifts Unrestricted!
0:36:30: Khans of Tarkir Report Card
0:43:00: Monastery Mentor
0:57:50: Soulfire Grand Master
1:00:20: Lightform/Cloudform/Soul Summons
1:03:30: Reality Shift
1:12:00: Temporal Trespass
1:13:55: Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Total runtime: 1:19:53
Show Notes

– Vintage Super League
– Vintage Super League on WotC

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Enjoyed the cast guys! One thing to note is Tasigur is playable in Esper Bomberman to go infinite

5th place...

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47160.msg658590;boardseen#new

[Space_Stormy]

I feel that Steve was more upset at the 0 Ugin's Nexus than being off by 62 copies of Treasure Cruise!

[nedleeds]

Thanks Steve, Kevin -- good listen this afternoon over coffee. Kind of a weird place to find yourself in the only event with Mentor and Cruise x 4 legal, if cruise didn't get restricted this guy certainly would have sent it flying onto the list next BnR announcement. I played Mentor at the first possible opportunity (drove to North Carolina to do so!). With Treasure Cruise restricted I went with more of a control deck ... it ended up with 16 people (Super Bowl Sunday) and I split the finals going undefeated (needing my shops opponents to make some errors ...)

Results and list here

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47140.0

Beating

Mono U Belcher
Urg Delver
Forgemaster Shops
Draw

Top 8
Smokestack Shops
Forgemaster Shops

I went with more of a control shell and I played red. Feeling shops would be too much without red. My initial early take on mentor is that barring an absurd opener it's more of a control finisher than a real aggro control card. My main concern was establishing my mana so I went with maxed out moxen and Trinket Mage. You'd think they might compete with each other but I found they have a great deal of synergy. Reason being I rarely wanted to tap out for mentor. I feel fine tapping out for Trinket Mage. The added creatures (all human) put me in a position to really use Cavern of Souls. 3 colors and caverns in turn shifted me away from Gush.

-Sean

[MaximumCDawg]

RE: Best card for Vintage?  

Mentor.  I don't think this is really close or there will be much argument.  Your analysis of Mentor as being a Blightsteel-size threat is probably hyperbolic.  She's more along the lines of an Inkwell or Myrball, I think.  She threatens to end the game in fairly short order, but she's not going to do it alone and in all cases.  For example, if you only have one card in your hand, a Tinker can win next turn, but a Mentor cannot.  That said, she does demand an immediate answer in most circumstances or she threatens to win the game.

RE: Tasigur

I think you guys stopped talking about Tasigur before you got to the real meat and potatoes of the card.  You made it sound like a 4/5 for 5B+Delve is really the only consideration.   That's not a good analysis.  There's a bigger Angler or something with Delver 6B, and Hooting Mandrills as a 4/4 at 5G if you want a simple body.  If you don't mind BB, there's Tombstalker.  And those aren't legendary.

No, Tasigur's upside is his ability, and you guys did not really analyze this much.  Here's the important points:

1. In the late game, this is a way to generate raw card advantage.  Not card selection, no, but you do get simply more raw cards in your hand.  Even if it is mana, you're continuing to develop your board each turn during a stalemate.  As you correctly noted, any way of exiling cards helps you shape what is going to be selected.  In a control shell, if you left your mana open -- even if he attacked! -- you're able to draw a card at your end step.  That's inevitability!  

2. The graveyard is halfway into play in Vintage.  If you're in BUG, say, then his ability to mill 2 is virtually drawing you cards for use with your Snapcasters.  

3. He's a combo piece because he doesn't tap to use his ability.  In any deck that generates infinite colored mana (Worldgorger, Salvagers) he wins the game.  Basically he can then mill your library into your graveyard, and then you activate him infinity times to pull all your non-land cards from the yard into your hand, and then you cast and recur whatever you want to win immediately.  

Options for winning with infinity Tasigur run from the obvious (Lightning Bolt) to the hilarious (Vision Charm) to the deviously clever (Dimir Charm).

RE: Manifest Auras

I think you missed some key points about these cards, too.

1. Built properly, this effect is a form of card advantage.  When you manifest a card, you've moved it from your library into play.  If it's a creature, you can get it into play by paying more mana.  Usually that's not worth it, BUT you've drawn a card, too.  So if you manifest a Deathrite, you've just paid 1UU or whatever to dig a card.  That's maybe not the most amazing cost-to-benefit ratio, but it's important to consider when you look at manifest.  

2. Manifest has given us oodles of new abilities to move cards onto the battlefield without paying their mana cost.  This is NOT to be underestimated.  Cards like Natural Order and Tinker are very good.  Now, I grant you that Manifest may be more like Call of the Wild in effect, but I'd argue that Call is not a bad effect at all, it's just been overcosted.  

3. Once the card is on the battlefield with manifest, blink and bounce effects become very interesting.  Say you manifest a spell you want in your hand.  Any bounce effect, like Jace:TMS now puts the card where you want it.  Since morphed creatures have no casting cost, Repeal becomes very spicy.

If it's a creature, then blink effects bring it back un-morphed.  Angels might get some mileage out of this.

4. If you're using the manifest AURAS, don't forget the creature you get now has an aura attached.  The Blue one is the only one worth talking about, IMHO, because it gives Flying and Hexproof.  Are you kidding me?  Evasion AND immunity to removal?  A 12/12 flying hexproof is in a whole different universe from a mere 12/12 who eats a Decay.

5.  If you're using the manifest enchantment (I forget the name) you can spam manifest tokens for 1W each, as much as you like.  If you're set up to take advantage of the cards by bouncing or blinking, this is potentially a HUGE card advantage engine.

DISCLAIMER - I don't know if the pieces are there to make these cards work.  But, I think you sell them short by not considering these things.

[serracollector]

The manifest enchantment cost one and a white but costs three and a white to manifest your top card. It is not very good at all. Call of the Wild would be better in most cases.

[MaximumCDawg]

Ah, ok, I mis-remembered the casting cost and activation cost.  In any event, I still think the manifest ability in a vacuum is much more interesting than Kevin or Steve implied.

[mueller]

the Jace idea is ridiculous. If it's on top of your library, just use his brainstorm ability.

Oath is at <10% of the metagame, and I don't see any manifest somethingsomething card being half as good.

[Stormanimagus]

This was already said by a guy above, but yeah, Tasigur belongs in most any Salvagers combo deck. And yes, he WILL see play. He is also INSANE with Gifts in a Salvager's Combo list. Also, worth noting that you can exile chaff that you don't want given to you with his delve mechanic or future dig through times so your selection of card might be better than you guys are making it sound.

-Storm

[CHA1N5]

Yes, Tasigur in Bomberman was a miss on our part. Bomberman, in my view, is suffering a lot in terms of visibility from being unplayable on MTGO.  Unfortunately, people don't play it in my area, so the only way I interact with it is in this forum. (I'd gladly play it in an event, but I have a long list of decks it's competing with.) No excuse, though.

[Space_Stormy]

Yes, Tasigur in Bomberman was a miss on our part. Bomberman, in my view, is suffering a lot in terms of visibility from being unplayable on MTGO.  Unfortunately, people don't play it in my area, so the only way I interact with it is in this forum. (I'd gladly play it in an event, but I have a long list of decks it's competing with.) No excuse, though.

I have no experience with programming but I feel there should be a way to have infinite combos work online.  Like, click an option to set a certain amount of actions and yeilds to let you perform a loop.  Like,

Option-> Set loop
Perform action-> 1.) Tap Tropcial Island #1 for U - 2.) Sacrifice Tropical Island to Zuran Orb for 2 life - 3.) Play Tropical Island #1 from graveyard. Set: Perform action 1,000 times.
I guess yields can get a bit messy so maybe it would make you do the action a few times and if your opponent yeilds every time it allows you to loop for the amount of times you need to.

[fsecco]

One thing you forgot about Reality Shift (I don't think it really makes the card playable) is that you can manifest a Delver after they reveal the card on upkeep and before they draw. That's probably the only reliable way to 2-for-1 with it.

[CHA1N5]

One thing you forgot about Reality Shift (I don't think it really makes the card playable) is that you can manifest a Delver after they reveal the card on upkeep and before they draw. That's probably the only reliable way to 2-for-1 with it.

While that's a valid play, it's still not a 2-for-1.  The real card advantage comes in undoing a topdeck tutor (Mystical, Vamp).  You do get some card selection and tactical advantage out of the play you describe, but not card advantage.

[MaximumCDawg]

the Jace idea is ridiculous. If it's on top of your library, just use his brainstorm ability.

Oath is at <10% of the metagame, and I don't see any manifest somethingsomething card being half as good.

It's just an example.  If you manifest a card for some reason without knowing what it is, and it turns out that it's the your Yawgwill, for example, you can Repeal / Jace / whatever to get it in your hand.  Or, imagine you manifest a red blast.  You end up needing to counter Ancestral, so you Repeal the blast and you end up "drawing" that REB.  My point is that manifesting a card is not remotely the same thing as exiling it if your deck has access to bounce or blink.

Also, I agree that I don't see the immediate implications for Manifest yet.  The ability is aggressively costed, however, and the mechanic is powerful.  I suspect it has applications we dont see yet.

[serracollector]

Well, some creatures have good morph abilities that would actually be cheaper to morph them for their casting cost instead of the morph cost, since they are "manifest" and not "morph" you can do this.  Examples I seen on gatherer are:

Fathom Seer (1U, draw 2 cards)
Hooded Hydra (5/5 for GG)
Skinthinner (1B, dark banishing)
Voidmage Apprentice (1U, counterspell)
Kheru Spellsnatcher(3U, counter and steal a spell)

The rest I think are rather pricey, but who knows what the future holds.

[Space_Stormy]

If you need to set up a card to make it good, it better win you the game and not just give you a little tempo. 

[brianpk80]

Nice podcast.  I enjoy periods of more drastic change since they are exciting and ripe with opportunity so I have no problem with the fact that they both restricted and unrestricted a card during the release of another excellent set.  

A few weeks ago, I would have said the best card in the set is Monastery Mentor hands down, but I now believe the standout to be Tasigur.  I didn't expect him to test so well in so many different situations but that is exactly what he does--combo, aggro, control for .  I would point out that even if an opponent chooses the seemingly "worst" card in graveyard, that will still interact with the many Vintage powerhouses that are enhanced by raw quantity of cards in hand--Jace, Brainstorm, Dack Fayden, Force of Will (seemingly useless Fire//Ice, pitch it), and Library of Alexandria.  He also accelerates Treasure Cruise and Dig Though Time.  On top of that, he allows blue control to dedicate less space to clumsy win-conditions that lose to every piece of hate in existence since his 4/5 body is usually enough to get the job done, perhaps with a little help from Auriok or Talrand.  Great, great card.

[fsecco]

Still about manifest, if you're looking for a way to bounce it back, maybe Rite of Undoing could work. Bounce one of their permanents, bounce your manifested card.

[MaximumCDawg]

Still about manifest, if you're looking for a way to bounce it back, maybe Rite of Undoing could work. Bounce one of their permanents, bounce your manifested card.

Nah, I think Repeal is definitely the way to go here.  The trouble is that nothing with manifest is good enough on its own to run, at least not obviously.  The ability is fine, but the cards with it are not exciting.  I think the best one is probably the blue Aura, since that one gives you a 2/2 flying hexproof dork (anemic clock) that can turn into a more threatening clock depending on what you flipped, or the spell that lets you look at the top 3 and choose one to manifest.

Basically, there's something to be said for drawing a card but having it act as a 2/2 instead of just sitting in your hand.  I think we need to get some more bang for our buck besides the manifest effect to make it really good.  At the moment, it's just interesting.

EDIT: If we got something like these, I'd say let's start brewing:

1R Shatterfest - Destroy target artifact.  Manifest a card from your library.
GG - Manifest a card from your library.  Storm.
U - Probefest - Look at target player's hand.  Manifest a card from your library.