Pushed Creatures

[Protoaddict]

So we have all seen the trend in pushed creatures right? I mean I know that most of them are not quite Goyf just yet, but considering that Goyf was a mistake in power level in the first place most of these new creatures are very high up on the scale. I don't think they will be seeing Vintage play but legacy is certainly a possibility. I mean, look at these spoilers and tell me that these creatures could ever exist even a few years ago:






So with the powercreep in creatures being what it is, do we ever think vintage is going to open up for people a bit more? I don't think the need for Lotus or on-color Moxen will ever go away, but outside of blue I think we will see decks where not only is that the only power but that they will be top tier decks that can compete with things like oath and workshops. I think we may already be close because with more and more monocolor options coming up (look at all the double mana on these cards) where it may not make sense to play more than one color, thereby eliminating the need for duals and fetches.

Is this a good thing if it happens? Is the format becoming more open and possibly less "special" or elite feeling something that players may miss? Just mulling some thoughts here.

[brianpk80]

These would be unthinkable under the templating & balance to which we've been accustomed for the greater part of two decades, up until around Zendikar.  As far as eternal formats are concerned, given the existence of Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer, and their obsolete cousin Tarmogoyf, the cat is out of the bag and anything without a non-aggro component pasted on (like Thalia's ability) isn't going to make an impact, IMO. 

[desolutionist]

I think the GG and WW in the manacost make them a little more balanced for Standard.

The thing though is that cards used to be terrible and only the cards that weren't terrible got played.



My guess is they want to move away from "spell decks" and more towards "creature decks".  Planeswalkers supports that idea;  Planeswalkers are ridiculous and you need good creatures to keep it balanced

[The Atog Lord]

The Delver deck wouldn't exist without Delver of Secrets and Young Pyromancer being so overpowered. And now, thanks to Mentor, people are building decks around him.

We are quickly reaching a point where the creatures are so good that they can compete with the ancient spells in Vintage.

That said, Wizards are making really powerful spells, too. Mental Misstep and Dig Through Time are both game-changing spells. There comes a point where neither Tinker nor Yawgmoth's Will are auto-includes in Blue decks. That would have been difficult to fathom some years ago.

Is this good? Is this bad? I don't think it is either. It is different, and it is interesting.

[Wagner]

While I agree that creatures have been getting better, I don't really think any of the ones posted really is anything spectacular.

There have been a LOT of 2/2 for WW with relevant ability over the years, one that gives some +1+1 counters doesn't seem that over the curve.

Same for Examplars, 4/4 creature for 4 mana with relevant abilities have been around for a while, like Chameleon Colossus, Ghost Council of Orzhova, Loxodon Hierarch,  Ravenous Baloth and even good old Masticore.

Scaleguards sentinel CAN be a 3/4 for 2, but it can also be inferior to a Watchwolf and on par with Elvish Warrior.

The Avatar is something pretty new, but it seems you'd need a deck build around him to get an extra value, otherwise it's a slightly better Garruk's Companion which saw some play, but not tons.


So yes, they ARE getting better, but very slowly, which I think is the way to do it.

[boggyb]

The thing that's helped me the most in my Vintage game in the past two years has been attending regular limited 8-man draft at my local store -- learning combat has helped me a great deal now that the format is more tempo-oriented.

[xouman]

Few weeks ago a friend that has nearly abandoned vintage told me that vintage sucks because there are lots of bad decks around that can win you, and you cannot prepare a proper sb because always can appear a new rogue player and win you.

Well, I'm delighted to find new rogue decks getting good results. I love not knowing how to prepare a proper sb, or even toy with 3-4 cards in the main depending on my expectations on the metagame. Having better creatures to oppose to tinker, oath, mws, bazaar, y.will, time vault... seems great. I really think that a plain aggro deck (no hate) is not on pair with most vintage decks. Of course it can win some matches, and even a tournament (the same player who told me that vintage sucks won a 44ppl vintage tournament playing infect), but that shouldn't be the standard.

[thecrav]

Is this good? Is this bad? I don't think it is either. It is different, and it is interesting.

You've summed up how I've felt about just about every change in the last few years quite well

[MaximumCDawg]

Is this good? Is this bad? I don't think it is either. It is different, and it is interesting.

You've summed up how I've felt about just about every change in the last few years quite well

Me too.

Also, you've missed out on the most pushed new creature:


So I guess we're in the era where a Juggernaut costs 3 mana, now?  Okay then.

[serracollector]

Dark ritual says that jug costs one mana. It is a strict upgrade to Negator. At least ONLY it dies to a bolt.

[diopter]

I'm STILL somewhat tempted to run Negators today even though my head knows it's a bad idea against, um, everything. New Negator is cool, though realistically it's probably competing in the same space as Tasigur. I also think I'd look to Ensoul Artifact too.

I am a pretty huge fan of the rise of good creatures with cool abilities, and dude-based haymakers.
- The first card I ever opened was Avenger en-Dal, the art and flavor still resonate.
- The thought of Phyrexian Processing 19/19's or Morphling-ing is still exciting.
- My favourite Vintage play these days is Sphinx of the Steel Wind on a clogged board.
- I'm also super stoked to try Tasigur competitively.

There's an elegance to winning with The Deck variants, but it's also kinda thrilling to do exactly lethal damage with nothing left in hand, or to double Bolt somebody to death when *they* have lethal next turn. Even playing midrange value Magic is super enjoyable, whether that be through excellent planeswalkers or value dudes with great activated abilities.

The fact that Lightning Bolt is relevant, and that the format actually has a fundamental toughness, is kind of cool too.

I still don't think of Vintage as a combat format yet - in that I don't think skill in attack/block decisions influence wins a whole lot. I'm not sure I care that much yet, I think the steps made so far are great.

[youhavenogame]

None of those are really pushed... Anafenza is good, but also legendary. Bolster is fine, but I'm sure enough situations would come up where you are forced to put a counter on a creature that doesn't need it. Ojutai Exemplars look pushed for Standard, but don't generate an immediate effect to see play in Eternal or Non-Rotating formats and is also way too expensive. Scaleguard Sentinels is only pushed for Limited, where I'm sure it will be quite annoying. Otherwise this is an aggressive card that you would have to mix with midrange or ramp cards which just doesn't sound right. Again it generates no immediate effect and is just hard to cast 2 mana 3 power guy, which is not all that impressive. Avatar of the Resolute just sucks. A 2 mana 3/2 is fine but again not super impressive, and for his ability to shine you would already need to have quite a solid board state where you are probably already winning anyway. Trample might make him just good enough to see Standard play, but again, that's it.

[tito del monte]

I echo a lot of what Diopter said above - the rise of creatures has made for variety in decks and game play in Vintage and I think that, broadly, it's to be welcomed. What I don't want is for creatures (and planewalkers to an extent) to overpower all other strategies, but I guess we're a while from that.

What I do wonder, is if they'll ever make a creature for Vintage which would actively promote budget deck-building - say something like a hatebear with a clause like "You may reveal your hand when you cast X. If your hand contains no artifacts, it costs N less to cast" - something which might gives decks without moxen a chance to compete. Not sure how welcome that mechanic would be necessarily, but it could certainly be interesting.

A couple of other thoughts on the implications of creatures getting ever better:
- Cavern of Souls is a card that looks likely to get increasingly powerful. Just as the power of Tinker rose as bots got ever-more powerful, Cavern I think will probably edge up in power-level with every set printed. Already Cavern -> Salvagers and Cavern -> Mentor look as legitimate win conditions as Tinker

- I wonder if the same thing will happen with creature-oriented tutor effects. When every effect is available on a beatstick, will the "unrestrictedness" of cards like Survival, Green Sun's Zenith, Summoner's Pact, Living Wish and co start to put them ahead of some of the other tutor/draw effects decks currently play? Certainly being able able to Oath up a flying, lifelinking Yawgmoth's bargain has proved popular, so I don't think it's an outlandish idea. We're a while off yet I suppose - as most of these tutors increase the cost of your creatures, making these a little inefficient, but as we get ever-more bang for our buck on the creature end of the equation, these cards may end up playing a bigger role in the meta.

Just my 2 cents and all that. Look forward to giving Anafenza a shot maybe - like how she potentially does something about Spirit of the Labyrinths annoyingly fragile backside. Cavern Spirit tribal anyone?

[MaximumCDawg]

I echo a lot of what Diopter said above - the rise of creatures has made for variety in decks and game play in Vintage and I think that, broadly, it's to be welcomed. What I don't want is for creatures (and planewalkers to an extent) to overpower all other strategies, but I guess we're a while from that.

Far from it, yeah; we're virtually IMMUNE.  Unlike formats like Modern and Legacy, that have banned some of the most powerful cards from the past, we play thing like Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall and Time Vault... Wizards will not ever print creature strategies that are as powerful as paying 3 colorless mana to take all the turns! 

Variety is good but the old strategies will be alive and well here even as they wither and die in Modern.

[Wagner]

What I do wonder, is if they'll ever make a creature for Vintage which would actively promote budget deck-building - say something like a hatebear with a clause like "You may reveal your hand when you cast X. If your hand contains no artifacts, it costs N less to cast" - something which might gives decks without moxen a chance to compete. Not sure how welcome that mechanic would be necessarily, but it could certainly be interesting.

That wording would actually make moxen more powerful, as you just play the free artifacts, then reveal your hand. It could be something like "This costs 1 more per artifact you control", or your artifact spells cost 1 more", or something similar.

[Protoaddict]

Much like true duals, it is very hard to make replacement cards that live in the same power space but are mutually exclusive with each other, because people just use both. TO make a dual land in this day and age WOTC would basically have to take underground sea and put an ability on it that would be bad for standard decks but good for non standard decks. Like "while this card is in play you cannot counter spells. When you play this card, gain 2 life and your opponent loses 2 life".

You can build a deck around that where it would be better than regular underground sea, and most decks that ran underground sea would not want it. But then again I think without explicitly saying "this cannot be played with underground sea" on it, you would still see decks that required both. Same with the moxen and lotus.

Dredge is by far the best deck we got for opening up the format because while it required costly cards in bazaar, it did not require any of the other power and honestly didn't want them by and large, but that happening was basically a fortuitous accident, and is now not even a strong enough deck to maybe even consider it like we once did. That plus I highly doubt any of this will ever happen in standard legal sets.

Personally I want burn to be a budget list that could be viable in Vintage, but what the hell could they print there that would make you not want to run at the very least the mox?

[Varal]

Personally I want burn to be a budget list that could be viable in Vintage, but what the hell could they print there that would make you not want to run at the very least the mox?

Plasma Bolt
R
Instant
Deals 1 damage to target creature or player.

Pauper- Reveal your hand. If there is no artifact in your hand, your graveyard, your exile zone and you control no artifact, you may copy this spell up to four times. You may choose new targets for the copies.

[ben_berry]

How about.

3R
Deal 3 damage to each player for every artifact they control.
If an opponent controls an island you may pay R instead.

[MaximumCDawg]

Personally I want burn to be a budget list that could be viable in Vintage, but what the hell could they print there that would make you not want to run at the very least the mox?

Plasma Bolt
R
Instant
Deals 1 damage to target creature or player.

Pauper- Reveal your hand. If there is no artifact in your hand, your graveyard, your exile zone and you control no artifact, you may copy this spell up to four times. You may choose new targets for the copies.

This card makes legacy burn soil its drawers.  Fun, though.

[Protoaddict]

You have to consider all the other formats though. Both of those burn spells would be pushing broken in legacy. R for 5 damage that needs 5 counterspells would be broken in that list and possibly hurt the format a lot. You could expect it to be banned. Likewise the other spell is not as bad, but is basically game over for affinity lists which make up a large part of the meta.

If you take the next step and look at modern these cards are even more powerful.

I think if you want to really open up the format, creatures are a good start, but Lotus and the Moxen are the biggest problem. There is very little you could safely print that would be a big enough reward to not use a lotus

[serracollector]

Well they have made several creatures now that add two or three mana of any color but only for creatures. What if they made a one or zero drop creature that sacd to add three mana only for creatures and only if you had no artifacts in hand or play? It would be pretty silly with the likes of the Titans in modern but would just be banned as usual.