[DTK] Narset Transcendent

[nyghtrunner]

Second, Narset's second ability is really good.  Consider this card:

Seal of Fork 2UW
Seal of Fork enters the battlefield with 3 Charge counters.  
Remove a charge counter: Copy the next spell you cast this turn.  Use this ability only once each turn.

I think that card is stupidly powerful.

I get what you, and some others in the thread are saying, but I cannot fundamentally get behind this kind of comparison.

Rebound != Fork

Forgetting about the "if it resolves" portion of the argument. Having to wait a turn to get your "copy" is not an insignificant thing. Yes if you get cantrips going with the ability, and start chaining things, it is a good engine for a few turns. And dreams of rebounding Time Walk and then next turn rebounding Regrowth is effectively a win if the opponent doesn't have an answer. I absolutely like those aspects of the card.

But vintage is a format that cheats 10 mana Enchantments into play, and I don't think anyone ever tried to SnT a Cast Through Time into play, which gives Rebound to all instants and sorceries you play for the rest of the game. I'm pretty sure the only crowd chomping at the bit to get their hands on that effect was the casual/EDH crowd.

Anyway, I'm not sure what to make of the card overall. I largely like the abilities, and I like the card. Is it vintage playable? I don't even begin to know (although it does seem to have decent synergy with Mentor). But Rebound and Fork/Twincast effects are not at all the same thing, and I do not think it's right to compare those effects as above. Unless the first thing you resolve with Rebound is Time Walk (which is probably pretty close to an insta-win for )... A lot can happen between you saying "Go" and your opponent doing the same thing.

I feel like I need to add a disclaimer to my sig for a while... I know I'm still very new to modern vintage, so if I make a stupid statement in ignorance, I apologize, but outside of pretty specific Restricted cards, I'm not sure that giving a spell rebound is really that powerful when compared to Twincast or Fork (Or Wild Ricochet, for that matter). And some of the restricted cards will never want or need Rebound. Why would you give Yawg Will rebound? If you resolve the first, you should probably pretty much win, right? I've won 1 game where my opponent resolved Yawg Will, and that was because he pretty much straight up bricked on a Preordain and Ancestral when I was already ahead on board.

EDIT - Meant to take out the bit about Chandra, The Firebrand... It's not that relevant, really, so if you saw it, please forget I said it.

[brianpk80]

Well, I'm not saying this set is as bad as Theros.  (Although I do think you are still a tad extreme in your Theros loathing). 

It's become more necessary to stress that acutely to counteract your pro-Theros propaganda.     But yes, I was very excited for Theros because of its theme and indications that would be a monumental iconic set (deities and what not) for Magic's 20th anniversary.  The fact that I couldn't find a single playable Human to play even once for a very liberal & inclusive Fish deck was disappointing.  The whole set was an insult.   

[gkraigher]

Rebound != Fork

this "fork" is on a 6 loyalty planeswalker with 3 good abilities.  


This card shines in a control deck.  Monestary Mentor has given control a new win condition to tinker/darksteel.  I really like this card.  The design is great, and the abilities are all good.  Outside of a board state where you are well behind, this card is good.  And when you are well behind, how many other cards in your deck are actually going to get you out of losing? 

[nyghtrunner]

this "fork" is on a 6 loyalty planeswalker with 3 good abilities.  

The larger point I was trying to make, especially with what you highlighted, is that I do not think it is correct to classify Rebound as anything other than Rebound. That extra turn is a significant difference between a copy effect and Rebound.

EDIT - And I was responding to a theoretical card "Seal of Fork", with rules text that says "copy".

[MaximumCDawg]

this "fork" is on a 6 loyalty planeswalker with 3 good abilities.  

The larger point I was trying to make, especially with what you highlighted, is that I do not think it is correct to classify Rebound as anything other than Rebound. That extra turn is a significant difference between a copy effect and Rebound.

EDIT - And I was responding to a theoretical card "Seal of Fork", with rules text that says "copy".

We're highlighting different things.  What I was trying to focus on was the fact that if you can pay once to load up an effect, and then it's free when you want it, that's significantly better than having to pay for it on the spot.  That's why the Seals were played (and still are sometimes).  I spend 2 mana now so I get a free artifact kill when I need it.

Narset's "fork" is delayed, yes, but the point I'm making is that her effect is free when you actually use it.  Thats better than Dualcaster Mage, Fork, and all the other stuff we have (except against countermagic).

[nyghtrunner]

We're highlighting different things.  What I was trying to focus on was the fact that if you can pay once to load up an effect, and then it's free when you want it, that's significantly better than having to pay for it on the spot.  That's why the Seals were played (and still are sometimes).  I spend 2 mana now so I get a free artifact kill when I need it.

Narset's "fork" is delayed, yes, but the point I'm making is that her effect is free when you actually use it.  Thats better than Dualcaster Mage, Fork, and all the other stuff we have (except against countermagic).

Fair enough. And I do like the card, and hope it's playable as at least a singleton in a controlling mentor deck with jace or something, because there's a lot of synergy there.

I guess to some degree it's the rules nazi coming out in me. The card you described is a lot closer to something like Mirari coming in with 3 counters, and instead of paying 3, you can remove a counter to copy a spell once per turn, whereas a more apt comparison to Narset's ability would be something like "Remove a counter: The next time you cast an instant or sorcery, instead of putting it in your graveyard, exile it with 1 time counter. It gains Suspend." That's a lot of rules text, and I just think it's a whole lot cleaner and easier to stick with Rebound. If we're making up theoretical cards to show a similar effect, it should describe the actual effect, or it's not a good comparison. Seal of Rebound has many different qualities than Seal of Fork. I'm really not trying to bust your balls or disagree with the premise, just saying they're different effects in some pretty important ways.

[MaximumCDawg]

So, a few months down the line, and Narset has done poop-all in Vintage.

She appeared in a few decks:
http://www.mtgstocks.com/decks/formats/Vintage/card/16501

It looks like she's fine, but really not displacing anything else and has found no home.  I'm actually disappointed.  I should have run more copies of her in the online vintage league!

[vaughnbros]

So, a few months down the line, and Narset has done poop-all in Vintage.

She appeared in a few decks:
http://www.mtgstocks.com/decks/formats/Vintage/card/16501

It looks like she's fine, but really not displacing anything else and has found no home.  I'm actually disappointed.  I should have run more copies of her in the online vintage league!

It's seeing fringe play, which is what I think most people expected from it.  It can take a little while for a card to really work its way into the fold especially when it's not a huge upgrade.  Dromoka also stole a lot of Narsets Thunder by being a better UW finisher in control.

[msg67183]

So, a few months down the line, and Narset has done poop-all in Vintage.

She appeared in a few decks:
http://www.mtgstocks.com/decks/formats/Vintage/card/16501

It looks like she's fine, but really not displacing anything else and has found no home.  I'm actually disappointed.  I should have run more copies of her in the online vintage league!

It's seeing fringe play, which is what I think most people expected from it.  It can take a little while for a card to really work its way into the fold especially when it's not a huge upgrade.  Dromoka also stole a lot of Narsets Thunder by being a better UW finisher in control.

I think you mean Ojutai Lance.