My Thoughts on Vintage Right Now

[Legend]

Rico, having abandoned the 8-Blast plan, there really isn't anything of consequence to side in against Mono-U. But my thinking on Mono-U now is that nobody really plays it. From what I've seen on these boards, the control decks of choice seem to be either Keeper or those U/R Ophidian decks that remind me so much of Legend Purple, and those decks are of course prime POP targets. I know that nobody at Neutral Ground ever played Mono-U besides me, even when 4 Fof's were legal. Now? No one. Even in a broader field, such as what the Vintage Championships will be in June, I still would not expect very much Mono-U.

With that said, if I had Fanatics in the sideboard (becoming less likely now given the heated competition for SB slots between Pyrokinesis, Bridge, Crypt, Miner, and anti-TNT cards like Rack and Ruin), I would probably bring those in for the POPS, just for lack of anything better. However, this depends on how many nonbasics the Mono-U deck was running. I have seen Mono-U decks running Factories, Conclaves, and all sorts of nonbasic garbage. In that case, maybe POP could stay in. I can only see Miner coming in for the sole purpose of being a crappy 1/2 attacker if I was just completely without any other options whatsoever.

As for Parfait, this is another deck I have never encountered in sanctioned play. First of all, I really don't think either Parfait or Enchantress are good decks at all. The reason I don't think very highly of these decks is because they are control decks without countering ability. The only Type I control decks I take seriously are the blue-based ones. So to answer your question, Parfait is the last thing on my mind when I construct a sideboard. If I ran up against a Parfait deck, I'd probably find myself in a similar situation as I would be in against Mono-U.

The decks I would be thinking of right now when building a Sligh sideboard are Keeper, UR Control or other non-Keeper multi-color control decks, Suicide, other Sligh decks, TNT, Mask, Dragon and Gro.

[bebe]

I think your analysis is spot on other than Parfait which in many areas is more common than you might imagine. I use Flaring Pain or Anarchy in my side.  

Monoblue, UrPhid and control are beatable. TnT can be beaten but you need to be smart and hope they don't have a G-d draw. I have more problems with combo then anything else when playing Sligh but I'm not metagaming for it main deck.

I still prefer the Goblin build though and I'll tell you why. Sligh for me is an aggressive deck choice. If I want to play aggro-control I can think of a few decks I would rather be playing (notably Sui black). Goblin Sligh is more than capable of holding its own and makes a nice break for me when I get tired of playing decks need an hour to win a match.  

I wonder if you have re-thought Legend Black as a few new cards and a changing metagame dictates a number of changes to the creature base nad perhaps some other sapells as well.

[PsychoCid]

Parfait or not, CoP:R is around.  At this time, I think Flaring Pain is the better answer to it (as opposed to Anarchy/oldschool Manabarbs tech).

Prior to updated Red Stompy to include fetchlands, dropping a mana source (which I replaced with Vise) felt good.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Legend @ Dec. 20 2002,10:20)Rico, having abandoned the 8-Blast plan, there really isn't anything of consequence to side in against Mono-U.

I agree that the 8 blasts strategy is overkill, but what about simply 3-4?  It's very useful against all blue-based things, including combo and even random things like Fish and Ice Blue Zoo.  REB helps against the 4 Misdirection-using Gro as well, which I imagine will be played in large numbers at the Vintage championships.

I understand it's hard to fit it in the SB, but what about over Dwarven Miner?  You'd still have the non-basic hate provided by PoP maindeck, you'd still have the usefulness against Keeper (although maybe not as game-breaking), but you'd gain  a solid card against many dangerous decks.

[Legend]

I attended my first tournament since July today at Neutral Ground, the weekly Friday Type I. I played the exact Ankh Sligh list that I posted in this thread to a 3-1 record. First I'll go over a couple of items that have come up in this discussion, then I'll do a little recap of the tournament. I know reports normally go in the other forum, but I'd prefer to put it here since it is connected to the Sligh discussion at hand.

bebe: I just don't think that highly of Parfait. People might play it IRL in some places, and it can beat Sligh for sure, but repeat: In this format I don't like control decks that lack countering ability. BTW, I agree with you about Red Stompy, it's a very attractive deck choice. Like I said, I prefer Ankh Sligh right now, but I'm going to build the other deck so I can have my choice of Sligh decks for any given tournament. I love the idea of lobbing Goblin Grenades at opponents. As for updates to Legend Black, I realize that the deck needs work, because since I was last here the metagame has changed. I haven't given the matter much thought because I have been focusing on Sligh, which is in my opinion a better choice right now. Maybe I'll get around to thinking about Suicide and do a post on that, the archetype needs some overhauls, I suspect.

PscyhoCid: Yeah, COP red is being used, and Flaring Pain is definitely the correct choice to get around it, I agree.

Rico Suave: Once again, on the issue of Red/Pyroblasts: There is no room for Blasts in the current environment in my view of things. I never liked the 8 blast plan anyway, because it makes the Sligh deck too defensive.  Sligh needs proactive hate at this point, and cannot afford to play the control game with real control decks. Siding in 3 or 4 Blasts is not an impact move - it dilutes your damage base, while giving you nothing more than marginal countering ability. There are just too many other cards that demand SB slots. Dwarven Miner is an outstandng SB card, and I would not consider cutting it from the board unless Keeper was absent from a given tournament. It has proven its worth time and time again at munching Keeper manabases.

-----------------------------------------------------------

REPORT: NG Friday Type I, 12/20/02, 15 players, 4 rounds

My SB was: 4 Pyrokinesis, 4 Bridge, 4 Miner, 3 Rack & Ruin

R1: Sligh

He wins the roll and goes first, and once I see a Mountain as his first land I am glad to be going second as I prefer to draw against other Sligh decks, since there is little chance of being overwhelmed as a result of going second. In this game I bolt 2 Jackal Pups. He also stalls on 2 lands and then takes some damage from an Ankh. I end up attacking him a bit with some Cadets and then tossing a few more bolts at him. Game 2 he lets me draw again and I work him over with Scrolls and burn, ending the match in about 10 minutes.

1-0, 2-0

R2: Eric Wilkinson playing White Weenie

Ahhh...Mr. Wilkinson....we meet again. Yes, Legend, but this time the advantage is mine.... MWAHAHHAHAMWAHHA.... MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! This was not an actual exchange between us before the match, but it was what I was thinking, considering I knew what deck he was playing: White Weenie with 4 CONVERSIONS IN THE SIDEBOARD!!! Other problematic cards included Null Rod and Soltari Priest. Eric is a longtime excellent Keeper player who I have developed a very good rivalry with, and we have pretty much alternated wins, with revenge usually taken against the most recent victor - and generally in brutal fashion. This was his turn, since last time we played I munched all his lands with Legend Purple.

If Eric was playing his usual Keeper, I would be happy about drawing him, but apparently he decided on a change of pace today, the often criticized, but surprisingly effective White Weenie archetype (he somewhow ended up winning the tournament, beating a Keeper deck along the way!!). My only hope in this match is to win Game 1 and then look for a miracle in the next pair. This does not happen. I end up losing a race in the first game involving some Cadets and Shamans versus Mother of Runes, a couple of Savannah Lions, a White Knight, and a Soltari Priest. An Ankh does a little damage, but not enough, and the race wasn't really close anyway since I didn't draw any direct damage or Scrolls. Now I'm screwed, since I have to win the back games against the 4 Conversions. I do manage to win Game 2, though. I get a 1st turn Black Vise, which prevents him from using the 3 Land Taxes he has drawn, and then screw him over with an Ankh. A few bolts later, and he is unable to get to four mana because of the Ankh. He did make the game a little too close for comfort, though, attacking me to 5 life as I drew Mountain after Mountain, but the Vise/Ankh combo was too much. Game 3 was a severe beating, as my creatures get Plowed, a Null Rod shuts down a Scroll, and a Conversion locks me out of the game. I think he also sucked all the basic lands out of his deck with Land Tax.

1-1, 3-2

R3: Bizarre Keeperish deck with Shaharazad (!?!??!)

Apparently this guy was playing a pile of restricted cards and counters, but with Shaharazads!?!?!? You're guess is as good as mine as to what this guy was thinking. The first game involved him casting restricted cards repeatedly: Timetwister, Wheel, Balance, Ancestral, Time Walk - all for no apparent reason. I just sat there watching him display all his restricted cards, then burned him out. Game 2 he didn't do much of anything because I got 2 Ankhs and a Miner into play, and that was that.

2-1, 5-2

R4: Fully-Powered Keeper

OK, a real match. I respect Keeper, but I'll always welcome this matchup, since Keeper is one of the archetypes I designed my deck to beat. In the first game, I smack him around with 2/1's, until they are Balanced away, but he has no answer to an Ankh and a Scroll. Game 2, I keep a questionable hand with no disruption but a Scroll and some bolts. This seems to be working, as I throw some burn at him and start Scrolling, but I was not counting on an early Morphling, which easily outraces the Scroll, as I could do no better than reducing him to 6 life. Game 3, I keep a 1-mountain hand going first. I do have a Black Vise and some 2/1's, though. The Vise resolves, but the damage stops when he drops a couple of Moxes into play. I then start chipping away with some 2/1's, still having not drawn another land. The 2/1's are Balanced away once again. I've now drawn a second mountain, and my opponent's hand is starting to fill up, so I don't cast anything else in hopes that he will choke on the Vise. He then casts Fact or Fiction, turning up 4 lands (2 of them fetchlands) and a Sol Ring. With the Vise in play, I could do a 5-0 split, but instead I do a 4-1 with the Sol Ring alone, since I don't want him to get the Ring (he is fairly mana-light, and I have an Ankh in hand). This may seem like an odd gamble, but I just have a feeling he will take the pile of 4 lands, because the fetchlands seem too attractive for him to ignore in the current game state. Besides, he didn't know I had an Ankh in hand. As I expect, he takes the 4 lands, and suffers some more Vise damage. Things are looking really good for me at this point, but he has other ideas, casting Vampiric Tutur for...CONVERSION!!! I forget what his life total was now, but with the life payed from the Tutor and the Vise starting to kick in, he is at something fairly low. At this point, I have two POPs in my hand and an Ankh. He casts the Conversion, leaving only a Mox untapped. I POP him for the game in response - but he Forces!  Now my only hope is that the Ankh will resolve on my turn, for if he has another Force, that will be the game, since I need the Ankh/Vise combo to pull this one out. The Ankh does resolve, and on his upkeep he falls to 5 life from the Vise. Suddenly, I have the advantage again, despite being red mana-locked out of the game. With the Conversion tying two of his five mana down, and the Ankh in play, he is in a tight spot. I am pretty confident that he has no way out now, but he ends the game even sooner than I expected by playing and using a Polluted Delta! I watch him do it, then tell him that the game is over. He pauses for a second, then realizes that he takes 5 from the Delta, and that's it.

3-1, 7-3

I end up in 4th place out of the 15 participants.\n\n

[Dave Kaplan]

Good job Legend. All of your words ring true, and the decklists are being more and more fine-tuned.

EDIT: There was absolutely nothing contructive in the paragraph I just removed. Zherbus

Sligh is more alive than ever, and will never die!

[Legend]

Thanks, Dave. I appreciate the kind words. You're right, Sligh is alive and well. It refuses to go away, much like a festering sore.

The real problem with Type I aggro has always been the fact that most good players have generally ignored such decks. They feel that aggro requires little skill and shun it, as if winning in an hour is somehow better than winning in ten minutes. Meanwhile, aggro has been left to the the unwashed hordes of scrubs. But there are at least a few good players  who are refining the aggro decks. The Sligh builds are being tuned more and more, and will have to be accounted for.\n\n

[cooberp]

I just tested about 17 preboard games against your exact Ankh Sligh build, Legend, and a few post, with Enchantress.  It was 9-8 Sligh game one, obviously better for Enchantress after boarding since I brought in 7 cards.
I never saw a Black Vise so I never got squeezed between the Ankh and the Vise, but I was wondering if you could explain why the Ankhs are superior to Fireblasts.  Yes, they rip the shit out of fetchlands, but I was always able to play around it by putting down fetches first and/or Sealing the Ankh.  If 2 or 3 Ankhs were down, they were a huge problem for me, granted, but one really didn't bother me much at all.  And I was MUCH more comfortable knowing that when Sligh had tapped out there was nothing they could do to hurt me, and I could, for example, tap out to drop Worship if I had a CoP on board.  Fireblasts screw up opponents' math big time and require control players to always play around the threat that they could go from 4 to 0 without warning, as well as being nice to Fork.  The Ankhs typically only hit me once, and slowed down Sligh from putting on rapid pressure.
I am sure that Fireblasts are better against me than against Keeper, where they are gi-normous Mana Drain and Misdirection targets.  But I did want to contribute that from the perspective of the maligned nonblue control player, Ankh Sligh is much less scary than Fireblast Sligh.

[Legend]

cooberp:

Quite frankly, when I build any deck, I really don't account for Enchantress or Parfait. I don't ask myself "What will happen if I run up against one of those decks?" in the same way that I think about Keeper, TNT, Suicide, Sligh, and on and on. In 84 sanctioned matches, my 2 against you have been my only experiences against Enchantress. But obviously, that is not the fairest assessment of why I don't account for Enchantress, because maybe it is played a bit more elsewhere (I can't imagine why). The main reason is that I just don't think Enchantress is a very good deck. With that said, it can beat Sligh (but not at the clip it needs to, considering that Sligh is supposedly one of its better matchups from what I understand), but I still don't think Enchantress is a very good deck at all. In fact, I have even stated that I think it stinks at times in the past. Is this the case? Is my criticism too extreme? I would have to see more evidence to be sure, but like I've said, my only experience with Enchantress has been watching it fail miserably at Neutral Ground late last year and early this year.

But let me put that aside for a second, and look at your question of Ankh versus Fireblast. The reason why Fireblast is not being used right now is because Ankh is better against Keeper and other blue-based control decks - and success in Type I is largely predicated on being able to produce a solid win percentage against top players playing these decks. This has more to do with just the fact that fetchlands are being used now, a lot of it has to do with the fact that people have realized that Ankh is a good card that was sort of lost in the shuffle, and that maybe Fireblast had to be reconsidered. But here are some of the main reasons:

1. Obviously, rise of the fetchlands

2. Ankh provides colorless, non-targeted damage

3. Ankh compliments the traditional mana-denial aspect of Sligh beautifully. Consider that the blue-based control decks are mana-hungry, as are several other decks in Type I, such as the decks you champion, Enchantress or Parfait.

4. Ankh is a cheap, continuous threat that smooths out the resistance against Powder Keg with its 2 mana casting cost

Fireblast, on the other, hand, does none of these things. It is a big Mana Drain and Mis-D target, and you will no longer be sitting there in the early game with an uncastable card. Does Fireblast suck? Absolutely not. It could even come back at some point. But right now, the time is right for Ankh, not Fireblast. Consider that even in the more aggressive version of Sligh that we have here, Red Stompy, Fireblast is not even being used - Goblin Grenade is superior in that capacity. I will say, though, that Fireblast is a candidate for that deck, it is just hard to find room for it, being that the deck is so tight. Clearly, the two different builds have different demands.

Finally, I believe that Ankh should be better against Enchantress than Fireblast. Of course, using fetchlands before the Ankh comes out is always a good thing for you, but the Ankh will mainly be there to shut down further land playing of any kind, and of course any further fetchland use. If it is the target for a Seal of Cleansing, well, then fine, that's another artifact killer that won't be dealing with a Cursed Scroll. I think Ankh Sligh can still come out fast enough to mow down Enchantress, and it still has plenty of finishers - POP and Scroll come to mind. The matchup will still come down to what it has always come down to, whether or not you can find your hoser in time, and get it down with enough mana in play to save yourself. Given that possibility, I'd prefer the colorless threat of Ankh over the red Threat of Fireblast. BTW, yeah, Worship really sucks for Sligh, but like so many other horrible hosers, you just have to hope it doesn't come down, or just blow away the opponent before it can come out. You seem to be concerned about the lack of a sudden threat that can bring Enchantress down from 4 to 0. Well how about a finisher that bring an Enchantress deck down from 6 to 0, or 8 to 0, in a heartbeat? That is Price of Progress, the real finisher in the Sligh deck.\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Just a quick little note.

"Fireblasts screw up opponents' math big time and require control players to always play around the threat that they could go from 4 to 0 without warning"

Unless you happen to know for sure your opponent is not playing Fireblast, people will still play around it. I mean it's Sligh, so some builds have it and some don't. So I think unless you know the exact deck of your opponent, in a tourney setting you would still play around it like they had Fireblast. Unless you want to take a chance of dying a horrible flaming death of course.

[VegasJake]

Hey Legend, good to see you back on board.

Thinking back to pre-rotation Extended, one of Sligh's major nemesises from that period was U/r Trick.  The 20-pt life boost from Illusions proved too much to overcome, apparently.

Have you tested this matchup at all, and if so, what were your results?

[Smmenen]

Quote (Legend @ Dec. 20 2002,10:20)Rico, having abandoned the 8-Blast plan, there really isn't anything of consequence to side in against Mono-U. But my thinking on Mono-U now is that nobody really plays it. From what I've seen on these boards, the control decks of choice seem to be either Keeper or those U/R Ophidian decks that remind me so much of Legend Purple, and those decks are of course prime POP targets. I know that nobody at Neutral Ground ever played Mono-U besides me, even when 4 Fof's were legal. Now? No one. Even in a broader field, such as what the Vintage Championships will be in June, I still would not expect very much Mono-U.

Legend, you are sorely mistaken in this regard and it will cost you if you believe it.  Mono Blue is immensely popular in the midwest and in the north.  As evidence I submit the most recent two Canadian tournaments, Origins *and* Gencon decklists, as well as my intimate knowledge of midwest vintage.  And since the Vintage Championchip will be right here in Columbus, Ohio, I would think that I am well qualified to make that assessment.

If people come in not expecting mono blue two things will follow: 1) mono blue will do even better than it should, and 2) they will pay the price for not being prepared.

In all liklihood I will be playing mono blue again this year at Origins barring some unexpected metagames shift or a desire to play Mask or Grow(which I would only play in a heavy blue field) instead.  


Something I have been thinking about - why not take the lead from the Extended Sligh decks and put in four ports as well?  That would have tremendous synergy with the Ankh's and back up the threats you have on the table?  More specifically, I refer to the Reims sligh decks.  The use of four wasteland and four port was incredibly strong at the Grand Prix in Europe and was very scary for even two color decks.  As a rock player it took some time to become used to those decks and to learn how to play around them.  IN type one, where the decks are far more likely to be running multiple colors, I see little reason not to consider the possibility - especially in light of your decision to add Ankhs - one that I think has potential.  

Steve\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Hm, maybe we should once again explain why 1.x is different than T1....

Reasons Port would suck in this kind of deck.
1. It only produces colorless mana, which throws off the color consistency by a bit. Since your now running 9 colorless sources. The only +side is w/o Fireblast in the deck anymore it wouldn't screw that up.

2. It makes opponents Wastes useful, instead of dead cards.

3. It's a double edged sword. You have to use two lands to lock one of their's. Which means you'll also need to lay more lands to make your deck work. At least if you really want to use Port. So you'll take plenty of damage from Anhk too.

4. Consistent threats are lacking. You have 12 creatures you can drop. But, there all tiny really... and that's not enough.
Anhk you need to wait till turn 2. Which means waiting till turn 3 before using port.
If your going to start using Port kiss using Scroll goodbye. Unless you plan to drop 5 lands down.

5. Does anyone even look at the 1.x decks?
Under threat numbers... the Sligh deck that won Reims ran 16 one drops and then 4 Blistering Firecat... And the other one in the T2 ran a weird ass goblin mix with Tangle Wire as extra disruption...

6. There is such a thing as Artifact Mana in T1. ^_^

7. I thought the whole idea of this thread was we were streamlining the deck, and NOT trying to become a disruption deck...

[Smmenen]

No offense Vegeta - but your reasons don't say why Ports "suck." I'm not going to refute your points on a point by point basis - but within this paragraph.  The thing that makes the Ports a possibility - albeit theoretical at this point - is the Ankhs.  They are colorless (as are the scrolls) and the lack of fireblast means that they aren't exactly a spell.  Also, they support your creatures on the table by helping lock down your opponents colors in an uncounterable way.  And, assuming an Ankh is in play - your opponent playing a wasteland is a good thing becuase this means they not only take damages, but it limits their future land drops.  If they played a wasteland instead of a real land your port just became a wasteland AND you got tempo.  I don't think that Port and Scroll are mutually exclusive - you use which ever is more important at that time and you may not have both.  

As a matter of reason, just because extended and t1 are radically different, provides little reason to ignore a card simply becuase it was used in extended without providing a solid basis first.  I have seen how Ports work in t1, and I've been impressed. First in Nether Void and second in a mana denial deck that uses Sphere of Resistence and red stuff like Boil and Welders.  

Steve

[Vegeta2711]

Yeah I kind of got off the point, but anyways.

"Also, they support your creatures on the table by helping lock down your opponents colors in an uncounterable way"

Yes, that was what points 4 and 5 in my post were referring too. You need more than 12 1 drops for this use of Port in this aspect to be any good. The 1.x decks had a lot more creatures to drop early and so if they locked a land down with Port and bought a turn they could do more damage. Early on you might have a creature to support or you might not, in which case this point is moot.

"If they played a wasteland instead of a real land your port just became a wasteland AND you got tempo"

What if they didn't have any other lands to play? How is that a gain of tempo when they blow your land up from an otherwise dead card. Also if the Waste is out before Ankh then you would be the one losing tempo. And if both lands were dropped afer Anhk that would just be a trade-off again.


"As a matter of reason, just because extended and t1 are radically different, provides little reason to ignore a card simply becuase it was used in extended without providing a solid basis first. I have seen how Ports work in t1"

And I've seen how they worked in T2 and for a brief time in MBC. I'm not saying ignore it, because it's coming from 1.x. It's because, 'it has synergy with Anhk' that doesn't mean it should go in the deck. As far as I know this Sligh deck wasn't being built to be based around Anhk or be heavy disruption.

It doesn't have enough creatures for the support role to be all that helpful, it screws with the mana base, and it ties up your amount of free mana at a given time if you choose to use it. Basically I'm saying 'it has synergy with Anhk' isn't a good enough arguement for it's inculsion.

"First in Nether Void and second in a mana denial deck that uses Sphere of Resistence and red stuff like Boil and Welders"

Funny how Void ended up dumping Ports for Mishra's and the other deck I've never heard of so I can't comment. Though if it's running Boil...  

[Rico Suave]

Just out of curiosity, what do you plan on cutting for 4 Ports?

[kirdape3]

Legend:

What is your thoughts on running a R/G deck instead of strict Sligh?  More properly, do you think that the advantages of better creatures and enchantment and artifact removal outweigh the increased vulnerability to Ankh (yes, you probably should run Wooded Foothills in a R/G deck) and Price of Progress?

[Legend]

VegasJake: No, I've not tested the Trix versus Sligh matchup, but I already know that it is a horrible matchup for Sligh, especially without the blast plan. The only hope appears to be a lucky mana-screw victory.

kirdape3: I believe that the way to go with Sligh is always mono-colored. Adding additional colors detracts from the consistency and opens the deck up to irritants like POP and Wasteland. Going mono-colored will ensure better draws over the course of a tournament. I have always believed that mono-color is best for aggro. As the Sligh player, you are the one who wants to be capitalizing on the bad draws and misfortunes of your opponents, rather than vice versa. Playing one color only will ensure that this is the case.

Steve: Rishadan Port - I don't support it at all in Type I Sligh. As I just alluded to in my response to kirdape3, adding nonbasic lands will makes opponent's dead Wastelands useful and open you up to POP. Furthermore, you will be forced to lower your Mountain count, which is really not something you want to do. Port is too slow for Type I in my view. It would be a marginal addition at best. In Ankh Sligh, the only nonbasic lands should be Wastelands and Strip Mine. In Goblin Sligh, the only nonbasics should be the fetchlands and Barbarian Ring. The only reason I advocate Barbarian Ring is that it is too attractive too ignore in Goblin Sligh, despite being a Wasteland target. But other than Barbarian Ring, stay away from the special lands that are not named Wasteland or Strip Mine. You should note that playing Ankh in Sligh is not a move designed to center the deck around the Ankhs. Rather, the Ankhs have been added because of their general value which has already been discussed in this thread. Your reasoning of adding Ports because they work well with the Ankhs is flawed, because it is not an Ankh deck, but rather a Sligh deck with Ankhs in it.

Vegeta 2711 made several solid points as to why Port is not a Type I card (I know, some people use it in Void decks). I have echoed some of those sentiments. What you are doing, Steve, is bringing too much of an Extended mindset to Type I. I know that you are a Type I player primarily, but you are guilty of trying to import a card best left in its current environment. Extended has historically been the breeding ground for several decks that were in some form or another transferred to Type I, for sure. However, you must understand that while some deck concepts have proven worthy of a transfer to Type I, many of the cards that are found in the Extended versions must be eliminated in the transfer.

On the topic of Mono-Blue (XLU), if people are playing it, then fine, but I am not going to cost myself other matchups by overloading my sideboard with cards against Mono-Blue. Additionally, I feel that YOU are sorely mistaken in using Gencon and Origins as evidence to support your point that Mono-Blue is popular. Those tournaments were held several months ago, when the metagame was quite unlike the current one. I have no doubt that people may play Mono-Blue, especially in your area, but the fact of the matter is that the two most popular decks in Type I right now are Keeper and TNT. Surely you would not argue this point.

Look, I of all people should have a healthy respect for Mono-Blue. Lest you forget that it was only a year ago that I was the most prominent proponent of the XLU archetype before the untimely restriction of Fact or Fiction. Clearly, though, the deck is far less of a force now than it was at the height of its powers, and as such, it is only logical that its share of the metagame will be cut back as other decks step up to fill that space. Now, XLU is merely a very strong deck rather than the powerhouse it once was. I certainly consider it when preparing for a tournament. But I must be more attentive to the more popular archetypes that I have already mentioned, simply because of their percentage share of the current metagame.

As a side note, having played the Sligh versus Mono-Blue matchup from the Blue side on numerous occasions, at least during the Fact or Fiction era, I always considered Sligh to be a favorable matchup for Legend Blue, largely because of the immunity to POP, Waste, and Miner. The presence of Powder Keg in fours certainly did not help matters for the Sligh deck. That was my experience at least, and I should note that my sideboard was always built with Sligh in mind (I played all 8 Blue Blasts when I won the NG GM Grinder two summers ago). Others have had different experiences with the matchup, depending on how each deck's sideboard was built.  The situation has certainly changed from a year ago, but I would imagine that XLU would still have the upper hand if the sideboard is built with Sligh in mind. Can a Sligh deck be tuned, either in the maindeck or sideboard, to do well against  XLU? Absolutely. I wouldn't say that I fear XLU as the Sligh player now, but if the XLU player wants to ensure that he beats Sligh, well then he can probably do that. Sligh has some weapons that it can employ, such as Goblin Vandal or Scald, but it is just not worth it to include these cards unless XLU has a truly significant share of the metagame. The fact that I have Miners in my sideboard instead of an anti-XLU card should tell you how much more I am thinking of Keeper than Mono-Blue. I understand that NG has a much higher share of Keeper than most places, but even at a broader field such as what the Vintage World Championship will be, I would still prepare for Keeper moreso than XLU, because I would be willing to bet quite a bit that Keeper and other multicolor control decks will see more play than XLU in the coming months and beyond.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Quote (Legend @ Dec. 24 2002,13:45)Additionally, I feel that YOU are sorely mistaken in using Gencon and Origins as evidence to support your point that Mono-Blue is popular. Those tournaments were held several months ago, when the metagame was quite unlike the current one. I have no doubt that people may play Mono-Blue, especially in your area, but the fact of the matter is that the two most popular decks in Type I right now are Keeper and TNT. Surely you would not argue this point.

[  ]  I understand that NG has a much higher share of Keeper than most places, but even at a broader field such as what the Vintage World Championship will be, I would still prepare for Keeper moreso than XLU, because I would be willing to bet quite a bit that Keeper and other multicolor control decks will see more play than XLU in the coming months and beyond.

Perhaps I was not being clear.  When you say that people play mono blue in my area - I should let you know what my area is: I live in Columbus Ohio.  And do you know where the Vintage World Championship is going to be?  Columbus, Ohio.  

The ONLY reason I brought up this issue, was not to say that your sligh should have a direct way to deal with mono blue but SOLEY to refute this statement:

"But my thinking on Mono-U now is that nobody really plays it. [ ]  Even in a broader field, such as what the Vintage Championships will be in June, I still would not expect very much Mono-U."

There will be mono blue - it will be one of the most popular archtypes.  But alot of the them will be very bad.  Just as alot of the Keeper decks will be very bad.  It's an interesting phenomena that occurs in t1 as well - when you look at other formats like Extended or T2, in particular at widely played archtypes, there are a range of people playing them and small variations in the decklist and play skill make the difference between top 8 and sucktitude.  Rock is a prime example of this.  The same happens in t1.  

While the fact that Wizards will put up some money and give it a title is likely to draw out a broader field - I should point out that the field at the last Origins tournament was broader than I had remembered as evidenced by some Origins video that I have been distributing around.  But more importantly, people in the midwest - Penn, Michigan, Wisc, and especially Canada like mono blue.  Those are the people who are most likely to be at Origins.  On Day one of origins there were four-five mono blue decks of 36.  That was the most of any significant archetype.

TnT is no doubt one of the most popular decks in t1 - but on paper only.  Getting workshops in four is a significant barrier to playing that deck and even those who have access to fully built keeper as myself do not own four workshops.  I would say you are right to prepare more for Keeper - in the context of your discussion I agree.  

The shifts in the metagame will have an effect on what we should expect at Origins Vintage Championship - but not too much of an effect.  I do not think we can dismiss the data from this year becuase it is old becuase in t1 everything is slow to change in real life (unlike online). The mystery in my mind is going to be how the data from 2002 will translate into 2003 desicions.  For example, on day one of Origins there were at least 3-4 Dragon decks - all but one of which dissapeared in day 2.  Mask performed strongly all tournament.
And parfait, while popular, was also winnowed out day one.

So, to boil it down: it's perfectly understandable to not want to devote 8 blasts to the SB just for mono blue - or whatever you had in mind, because you are concerned about other things, but it is totally a different thing to say that you are not going to do it becuase you don't expect it to be there (which is wrong).  

So in very brief summary: I agree to not worry about mono blue, but it is wrong to say that no one will play it.

Steve\n\n

[Legend]

Steve:

I'll agree with your statements to varying degrees.

While I'm at it, perhaps I should note that I probably wasn't clear enough either. I should not have said that nobody will play XLU because that is an exaggeration on my part that was bound to be interpreted the wrong way. What I meant to express is pretty much what you have now stated - that Mono-Blue will be played, and will be a factor, but will not be something worth going bonkers for in terms of preparation. It will be present, but not in overwhelming numbers.

But for your part, do remember that people will come to Columbus from far and wide for the Vintage Championship, so the metagame will be more reflective of the global environment than you might think, as opposed to being reflective of the Midwest/Canada metagame only. Looking to past Midwestern events will not be the greatest indicator because the Vintage Championship will garner a larger turnout consisting of different people who have not previously made the trip outside of their own region to play Type I in addition to the usual Midwestern players who attend these events. Case in point: me. I've never left the NY area for a Type I event, but I probably will for the Vintage Championship. There will be countless others like myself - people who generally do not go beyond their home range for an event - who may just take a little trip for this particular event. Sure, in the grand scheme of things, its just one tournament, and nothing will really be different after it is over, but because of the name attached to it and the greater awareness of Type I, people will come out for it. At the very least, it will just be good to have an event of this nature for Type I that will attract the kind of people I am referring to. These people will be both top players and scrubs, but they will turn out. I expect at least a 9 round event. I would be disappoined with any less than 7 or 8.

The location of the tournament will be only one of many factors that ultimately determines the metagame. The Neutral Ground players, the upstate New York players, the New England players, and players from Virginia will all leave their mark on the tournament. I am biased of course, but I think that the Neutral Grounders will have the largest impact on the tournament, mainly because this is where the most top players compete - and as you know, nobody plays XLU at Neutral Ground anymore. What this means is that Keeper (of course, this is the Keeper capital of the world), Sligh, Suicide, and TNT are the decks to expect from people who play at Neutral Ground. Although not as popular in NG tournaments yet, I know that certain NG players are gravitating towards TNT just from discussions I have had. It seems to me that the top Midwestern decks will be Gro and XLU just from what I have seen on these boards from Midwestern players. From the Virginia area, the choice will most likely be Keeper. From the other regions of the country, I am less certain, although expecting Keeper is always a good bet. Sprinkle in some UR decks, some Worldgorger and some Mask and there you have it.

But we pretty much agree that it is a better idea to prepare for Keeper than XLU. I also agree with your assesment of the varying degrees of competency in deckbuilding, as this is always the case in any environment in any format. However, I must disagree with your assessment of TNT. You are wrong to take this deck lightly in terms of its potential turnout, and if you don't think it will show up, you might just pay for it, depending on your pairings. Although it is a hard deck to assemble IRL, it will still be played. It is a beloved deck. In fact, I have a hard time remembering a deck that the masses loved more than TNT. People like to play it. They like to talk about it. They will build it. If people want to play TNT badly enough, they will find the cards to assemble the deck. Especially hardcore Type I players. Me? I'll be ready. I would suggest that you do the same. Do not underestimate the masses and their love for TNT. Fortunately, its very beatable if you see it coming.\n\n

[Zherbus]

Quote TnT is no doubt one of the most popular decks in t1 - but on paper only.  Getting workshops in four is a significant barrier to playing that deck and even those who have access to fully built keeper as myself do not own four workshops.  I would say you are right to prepare more for Keeper - in the context of your discussion I agree.  

I think we spoke on this via PM once, Steve. At a somewhat 'small' tournament of 24 people here in New hampshire there were 3 full powered TnT decks built. The deck is gaining in popularity and sales of Workshops on eBay are sky rocketing. Someone is buying them and intends on using them. Look at VA States, there was a similiarly sized tournament with about 3 TnT's there as well. A potential 10% of the field is nothing to blow off. Though I expect it not to reach that high, I expect to see it more than once at the Vintage Championships.

Also, on a note to that tournament, I expect it to be quite a bit different from Gencon and last years Origins. Why? Because people will be actually intending to play type 1 rather than, 'Oh, theres a Type 1, might as well play in it to show off my pretty Moxen.' Sure, Ill listen to what you, Matt Smith, etc ran into last year as it will be a factor, but I think you guys need to listen to the pulse of the rest of the Vintage community as it will be just as much a factor.

That said, I think the Ankh build of Sligh will prove itself.

1) Fetchlands are EVERYWHERE!

2) People are cutting life gain in Keeper.

3) Cop:Red is the ultimate and final Sligh answer to the uninitiated which will be at Origins undoubtedly.

4) Correct me if I am wrong, but Sligh rarely misses a top 8 at a major tournament.

Also, on Ports in Type 1. In Extended, they are great to take care of man-lands and mana denial, but in a format of instants and acceleration, these are really too slow. Especially for a mana light deck like Sligh.

[ctthespian]

I'd have to agree with Legend about TNT.  I recently went to a Tournament in Boston, MA.  A small tournament in comparision to the Vintage Championship.  There were two TNT decks there, both fully powered.  I could have built one, as its among the decks I ususally play, and so could another of my friends.  That would have been 4 TNT decks in around a 30 person tournament.  Those two TNT decks did very well I might say.  One T4'd I believe.

_Keith

[cooberp]

Actually there were three, I believe, out of 22 players.

[jdl]

Legend wrote (Re: TNT)

Quote Although it is a hard deck to assemble IRL, it will still be played. It is a beloved deck. In fact, I have a hard time remembering a deck that the masses loved more than TNT. People like to play it. They like to talk about it. They will build it. If people want to play TNT badly enough, they will find the cards to assemble the deck. Especially hardcore Type I players. Me? I'll be ready. I would suggest that you do the same. Do not underestimate the masses and their love for TNT. Fortunately, its very beatable if you see it coming.

I'm seeing the same thing in my area.  I've been playing TNT for about three months now, and have basically been alone with it.  Recently, however, I've seen at least 3 other people who are close to having the deck built and really want to play it.  It's not just a fad either.  There are real reasons to play that deck.

1. It's effective.
2. It's aggro, and therefore more interactive than combo.
3. It requires thought and rewards players for playing it well.
4. It pulls out some insanely good wins from seemingly nothing.

I'm also seeing an increasing amount of SB and maindeck hate week after week.  (This is also why I stick to a G/R version, to cut down on things that can be attacked via hate.)

I have yet to have an Ankh played against me though, and I must say that that would be a good play.  So many times, my colored mana is supplied via a fetchland, and that extra damage is not something I can afford against sligh.

-- Jim