My Thoughts on Vintage Right Now

[Anonymous]

It has been about 6 months since I last played in a Type I event of any sort, or really discussed any Type I, but I think I may just play in a few tournaments if I get the chance. Maybe I'll start playing sparingly at NG if they have some decent turnouts. Beyond that, we'll see.

Recently, I've been monitoring the discussions on the manadrain.com to get an idea of what the deal is right now. To me, the most interesting discussions have been the ones about Sligh.

For those who don't know this, I have always believed that Sligh is a Tier 1 deck (I don't like the Tier system, but I'll speak in those terms to convey my opinion of the deck). Besides the inherent aggressive goodness of Sligh, I think that it is a top deck because people always take it so lightly for some reason. Much like a vicious dog that hasn't been fed for a few days, you turn your back on it, and it bites your ear off. You already know my thoughts about Suicide black, but I think Sligh is an equally good choice right now, and for me, I think it may even be a better choice, as Suicide was becoming a little too predictable at NG as I was leaving.

Based on my own thoughts, what I've seen on this website, and a talk with Dave Kaplan at an Extended PTQ, this is how I would build Sligh if I was going to an unknown tournament.

4 Jackal Pup
4 Goblin Cadets
4 Gorilla Shaman

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
4 Price of Progress

4 Cursed Scroll
4 Ankh of Mishra

1 Fork
1 Wheel of Fortune

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
17 Mountain

SB:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Mogg Fanatic - unsure about this, maybe maindeck them instead of Ankhs, if I decide to SB Ankhs, or replace them with a TNT hoser like Rack and Ruin, or some other artifact kill, or a Mask hoser like Null Rod. But at NG, nobody plays Mask, TNT may make an appearance, though.
3 Dwarven Miner


I was going to play the Fanatics maindeck, but Ankh seems like it will have more impact against Keeper, Dragon, and any annoying control decks like the U/R Ophidian decks that seem to be roaming the landscape right now. In addition to hampering control decks and their fetchlands, the side benefit against Dragon is important, although I am fairly certain that no one plays it at NG. If that deck was rampant, I think Crypts in the side would be needed.

Ankh also it gives you a two mana threat to diversify the assault against Powder Kegs. Obviously, this version is weaker game 1 versus aggro, but I'll take my chances because the SB is just downright nasty against any aggro deck - although if you do run up against another Sligh deck that is running eight fetchlands, the Ankh will cripple their use of fetchlands and potentially allow you to win the mana battle, which is important since the mirror comes down to who can get an operational scroll or two.

Maindeck versus sideboard- This is a similar approach to the one I took with Legend Black - metagamed maindeck against control, next two games ready for aggro if necessary. I just don't expect to see many Sligh mirror matches right now, but I would imagine that the Nesis and Fanatics would do some good things there.

Ensnaring Bridge is just a great card against Suicide. If it resolves, they are going to have a very difficult time because the only way they can deal with it is with Keg set on 3 - by that time you will likely be set up to burn them out. It can also be good against TNT, although I am uncertain what their artifact removal situation will be. I just haven't been all that impressed with the TNT deck. Its pretty good, but I think Sligh wins that matchup if you want to. I think Rack and Ruin might be nasty against that deck, and Kill Switch has obviously been discussed. But putting those cards aside, I got the chance to play against a TNT deck is a couple of side games at a PTQ, and I just think Sligh has what it takes to win the matchup. Price of Progress is the key card, but the ability to kill Welder and mess with the TNT manabase is another element of the matchup. I think if Sligh is prepared, it wins this matchup.

Meanwhile, the Keeper matchup will come down to the mana denial and Ankhs in the back two games, there is no longer any need to run the eight blast plan. Right now, the good thing about Sligh is that the Sligh player really doesn't have to worry about mirrors, so it can just focuse on lots of hate for supposedly bad matchups - although I always thought of Keeper as a good matchup.

On a side note, I have also come to the conclusion (Kaplan also noted this in our discussion) that playing Stompy is now pointless. If you don't want to play the version of Sligh that I just posted, you should just play a 'red Stompy' deck, or a hyper fast Goblin deck. I would consider this deck if I felt it was called for, it certainly has its own set of advantages.

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Cadets
4 Jackal Pup
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Flunkies
4 Reckless Charge
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Barbarian Ring
16 Mountain

Of course, I think the regular version is better, but this one is fast, and worthy of consideration. OK, that's all for now.

[Sylvester]

Currently, the only reason i still play Stompy is that i'm saving my money for christmas (Come on Nortel!!! work up some value , and then i'll build some kind of cheap aggro-control, like Psychatog. In the meantime, i play stompy IRL. But first, i'll be on topic.

This is something I've always found very awkward with Sligh: You only have 20 permanent sources of damage, of which 4 deal 1/turn, another 4 are dependant on your opponent playing lands, and, finally, 4 others only start working turn 3 or later. And yet, the deck's only way to answer to removal is burn, casting another permanent... or, maybe winning with PoP.

Unlike Sui, which can easily disrupt its opponent long enough to keep its creature on the board until the game is won, sligh is not a deck that I think can count on keeping its few permanent threats on the board for very long. Of course, sligh can win... but it does just that! It just wins, topdecking a PoP out of nowhere. The recipe definitely seems to be working, but isn't it extremely fragile?

As for stompy: Why is stompy dead? It still beats well, and the fetch-lands let it use a few red cards(I'm leaning towards PoP) to have a few "I Win" cards.

Finally, I'd like to say it's good to see you back, Legend. I don't know if you can send messages to members, but if you can, I'd have no problem with posting something for you on the other forums if you want(unless it's something I would want to see deleted, eg a flame).

[Puschkin]

Hi, nice to see you back! As far as I know your account hasn´t been terminated. Didn´t you say you sold all your cards?

And ... glad that you didn´t call this "Legend-Red"  
Otoh, if you did, I would be very interested in "Legend Green" and Legend White"  

[Anonymous]

Sylvester:

I believe that Stompy is obsolete because a Goblin Sligh deck can mount a similarly blazing creature assault, and unlike Stompy, it can finish games with direct damage if the creature rush is stopped. Direct damage has always been better than pump, and when you get to use Grenade, well that is too good to ignore.

As for a more typical Sligh deck, it may seem like it wins in random ways, but if you look closer, it is really not as random as just pulling a POP off the top. Its just that most strategies will find it hard to cut off a rush of creatures, burn, and dangerous artifact damage. Suicide seems more focused, but in reality, Sligh is every bit the aggro threat that Suicide is, it is just that Sligh has been devalued. As a hardcore aggro player, I can attest to the power of both decks, but I would especially caution you that you should never underestimate a good Sligh deck or think that it wins for no apparent reason.

Puschkin:

Yes, I sold all my cards. Not that I played any sort of blue deck anyway, since I gave up on that after FOF was restricted. Besides, control is not my thing anyway - I preferred to play even Legend Blue as aggressively as possible. I am not aware of my account still being in existence. In that case, perhaps this discussion would be better off if moved to the Extreme Vintage Forum.

[Zherbus]

Your account exists, but it is locked. Email me @ Zherbus@themanadrain.com if you'd like it unlocked.

Moved to Extreme Vintage.

[FeverDog]

Obvioulsy the value of Ankh is directly related to how prevelant fetchlands become. Right now, it seems like every single deck out there is packing 4-6 fetchlands(even Sligh) which makes Ankh quite playable. My only real problem with it is that its pretty average mid-game where players can just stop playing land if they feel they need to. Although i understand that Sligh isnt supposed to have much of a late-game, at least a creature you draw can still swing for 2 per turn no matter when you draw it.

I still think the deck is solid, im just not sure about that one slot, i imagine in a Keeper-filled meta(NG) it would pull its weight.

Nice of you to drop by Ed, you should do it more often.\n\n

[Milton]

What about Black Vise?  With Ankh, there is no reason not to play a maindeck Vise.  Punish them for keeping lands in hand with Vise and punish them for playing lands with Ankh.

By the way, good to have you back.

[bebe]

I pretty much agree with both those builds. I have already listed a Goblin deck that is played around here in Toronto and mentioned that Flunkies were making a comeback in them. Piledriver is the card that made the deck viable again though. I'm curious how you would side for that deck.

I'm not at all sure about the first deck though. If you want to beat control play Rubefacere with a few tweaks to update it.
I don't like Ensnaring Bridges that much. You already have Pyrokinesis and I can thnk of a few cards I would rather side in.

Mogg Fanatics are great in the mirror but otherwise I would rather see something else here.  

Sligh definately needs some kind of a remake. We haven't seen a Sligh deck do well around here for awhile as it seems everyone sideboards something for it.

I'm  not sure about TnT either but I would rather play Stacker 2 then the first version you posted. I think if you are vgoing to play Sligh go for the 'red stompy' build. It is consitent and any kind of a slow start on your opponent's side of the table ensures a win.

[MolotDET]

Legend it's nice to see you up and about.

     I like your take on the deck, and even think that some of choices are more consisntant than those in mine.  But I think that this deck reflects more the NGNY meta-game and not the more random meta that you will see most other places.

Quote If that deck was rampant, I think Crypts in the side would be needed (speaking of Dragon)

Crypts are good against all sorts of decks. While Dragon is the most noteable of what comes to mind, TnT, monoBlack and even Keeper are severely hampered by Crypt.

     Ensnaring Bridge, while good against TnT and Mask, doesn't stop the recuring of Trisks.  Which just throw three damage and are weldered for another Trisk.  I did test these, and while they were good, TnT decks can get around them quite effectively.  Especially since they should be able to welder it for any Artifact in your graveyard, though I don't see many artifacts that might end up in your grave.

     Milton is exactly right in assuming that Vise and Ankh complement eachother.  In the late game having both on board insures that an opponent not playing land will be taking some damage.  OTOH I can understand wanting to have something else that will defenetly be putting up at least a little damage.  Though at NG I would probably be playing Vise.

Quote there is no longer any need to run the eight blast plan

 My feeling exactly.  Moreso I think that you can on longer afford to run 4+ blasts, unless you are guaranted to be running in an almost exclusively control field.

     Your creature complement, though it was basically what I was playing, is not condusive to good games against aggro decks.  The cadets seem to be a liability against anything aggro and that only accentuates the fact that Pups are not good against aggro.  Though these are the basic creature complement and are very good against control, they leave something to be disired against aggro.

one last thing, are you not running the Ruby because you don't have it anymore or is there a reason for this???

anyway Ed, once again it is great to have you back.  I look forward to talking about this with you.  This should be a great debate...

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

It's great to see you posting again Legend. I pretty much agree with your sentiments on sligh. With the appearance of fetchlands, ankh of mishra is a great weapon. I have a few questions about your decklist for the Goblin sligh. While reckless charge doesn't kill your creature, it doesn't necessarily mean the damage will get through. For this reason, I still believe that reckless abandon is superior. Further, I see people playing less and less fireblasts. Either people are packing 3-4, or none at all (with the exception of a few builds). I feel that fireblasts are almost a necessity in sligh decks. Not only does it provide another source for direct damage, but it is a great finisher. From what I have seen these past few weeks on threads of sligh, it seems that the big debate is a controllish build of sligh vs. an ultra fast goblin build of sligh (as Legend pointed out). Now that it is clear what people are debating, it should be easier to analyze which cards work and which don't.

Other than that, the two decks posted seem very good. anyways, just my two cents...

[the Luke]

MolotDET: Regarding your comment on Sligh vs. TNT: Ensnaring Bridge is not a solution to Goblin Welder, agreed. However, I think that the 12 burn plus sideboarded Fanatics would be more than enough to account for  the Welders.

Milton: I also think Black Vice would fit very nicely into Ankh-Sligh.

Legend: I'm curious as to whether you would side out Ankh versus Fetchland Sligh. The Ankh would severely disrupt your attempts to get enough mana to Scroll, and Fetchland Sligh should be faster than you, too. Also, I'm surprised not to see 2 Fireblast. I guess you decided that the interaction with Ankh would be somewhat awkward. Fireblast is still a great finisher, however!

[Hanzalot]

Quote  Besides the inherent aggressive goodness of Sligh, I think that it is a top deck because people always take it so lightly for some reason

Well the most recent paragon keeper does have CoP: Red MD, so Sligh isn't taken that lightly. In addition I think that most players realize that you have to be prepared for Sligh, because its always present - hence they are, and maybe that's the reason why Sligh has never broken into tier 1.

Your take on it looks promising though. 8 sources of colorless damage should be able to complicate the opponents sideboarding strategy.

Nice post  

[Legend]

Alright, I'll try to get to everything that has been discussed thus far, but first, I'd just like to say that I am not trying to debate the merits of these two Sligh builds over each other, in fact, what I am doing is promoting BOTH builds as the way to go for the future of Sligh. Version A, the one I am more inclined to play, is a bit slower, but more reliable. Version B, "Red Stompy," as I now call it, is also a great deck, but less reliable. My own personal preference is version A (for now), but what I am contending is that both of these decks will be strong in the current Type I. I suppose you could say that I am promoting Version A as the optimal "slower, more reliable Sligh" and Version B as the optimal "explosive, less reliable Sligh."

Fever Dog:

Regarding the Ankh, as you said, I am not really concerned about its application to the late game. If one is not drawn within the first few turns, its relevance will be greatly diminished, but in an aggro deck you live with that because you are looking for the quick knockout. There are enough decks that are mana grubs so as to make the Ankh worth it. Many decks will have no choice but to keep laying land even when under the Ankh. Finally, the rise of fetchlands does not hurt, nor does the presence of Dragon. Even without these factors, the Ankh would still be a good source of colorless and hard-to-Keg damage (as I am sure you realize). Drawing a "dead" Ankh won't be an issue in a deck with this many finishers (POP, Scroll).

Milton:

Yes, I had Black Vise in, but I pulled it for now because it is a bit random. I'd actually rather have that 17th mountain or the 4th copy of numerous other cards than one Vise. Its interaction with Ankh is excellent for sure, but I don't want the Ankh to become the focus of this deck. I would prefer that this be a Sligh deck with Ankhs in it, rather than becoming an Ankh deck. Vise is good, and it could be added, but right now I just can't find room for it and I just don't think it is that important.

bebe:

Rubefacere was an abomination in my opinion. I didn't like that deck at all, it was much too controllish for an aggro deck. It was much too fancy, not straight to the point enough for my liking, not blunt enough. I just want to pick up a rock and bludgeon somebody's cranium, not get all fancy. Also the name Rubefacere really bugged me. I don't think the way to beat control is to tone down the damage and add more control elements to the point of altering the structure of the deck into something unrecognizable. I think the way to do it is to add cards like Ankh that cause Keeper to take damage, while at the same time holding their land down. That's the beauty of the Ankh. After sideboarding, you can have Wastes, Miners, Shamans, and Ankhs to torment them for their shoddy mana base. We agree on the build of Red Stompy, but also consider the other deck I presented. It is not as fast, but it is more reliable and less exposed to hosings because it has more of a mix of damage sources. You can always put the Ankhs in the sideboard, as I even stated I am apt to do. Finally, on Ensnaring Bridge: you are just going to have to trust me on this - it ruins Suicide Black. If a Suicide deck is going to side in Masticores and other nasty stuff, you had best be packing Bridges. I can tell you from playing Suicide extensively that Bridge is game over, because Keeper decks have cast it against me. Sligh, like Keeper, is an excellent candidate for using Bridge, since Sligh is able to empty its hand quickly and just burn an opponent out from behind the bridge. Bridge also ruins any aggro deck with large creatures that is caught unprepared. Bridge is great.

MolotDET:

I think your concerns about Goblin Welder are not grounded in the fact of the matter, which is that a Goblin Welder has about as much chance of staying on the table against Sligh as Mark Rosewater has of understanding Type I. Meaning that they have no chance of living. The last thing that you have to worry about against that deck is Welder. If you can't kill Welder, its time to go home, because things are just not going your way on that given day. Therefore, Ensnaring Bridge does have a chance to cause problems against TNT. I am also convinced that Rack and Ruin is great against that deck. Moving on, I wouldn't worry too much about the Sligh creatures not being great against aggro, because that is what the sideboard of the first deck is designed to beat. My general philosophy is to usually be geared towards beating control in game 1. And yes, I am not running Ruby because I don't own one. I could get power cards again rather easily, but I am enjoying myself more without them.

Clown of Tresserhorn:

As far as Reckless Abandon in the Red Stompy deck goes, I would not use it simply because Goblin Grenade does what Abandon does, and does it better. You can't run 4 Abandons and 4 Grenades, so you use Grenades. The Charges fill a different function - giving the deck a little creature pump to compliment the burn and creatures. The Charges are also good because they work well with Flunkies. Let's say you have a lone Flunkies in play with no other creatures. You then play another creature. Normally you would have to wait another turn to attack with the lone Flunkies, but with the Charge, you can Charge the other creature and get a good attack in. As for Fireblast, it is not that it is suddenly a bad card, but once again Grenade fills in that "super finisher" function, and Fireblast is no longer necessary, although it is certainly viable.

the Luke:

As for siding out Ankhs against Fetchland Sligh, it depends on what was in my board on that given day. If I only had 4 anti-Sligh cards in the board, I would take out the Jackal Pups first (they are always the first card sided out in the mirror) and the Ankhs would stay. It depends, because Ankhs can be nasty against Fetchland Sligh.

[Akuma (gio)]

Has anyone considered Meekstone (1cc artifact, Creatures with power 3 or greater don't untap during their controller's untap step) in Sligh. It costs less than the bridge and ruins the creatures that Sligh usually has problems with. It also allows you to attack if they happen to have attacked.

Just a thought...

[Matt The Great]

That's not so great. If I were playing TNT, I would get around it thusly:

1. Get Anger in the graveyard
2. Attack, then cast Welder and use him as a sorcery before he gets burnt to switch the now-tapped fatty for one from the graveyard.
3. Repeat until you run out of Welders, then Genesis more.

With Bridge, they have to go through the steps of actually killing the bridge, which would involve either seven non-workshop mana+Shaman, or Karn+Triskelion. Meekstone can be gotten around, AND is easier to Shaman/Karn+trisk away.\n\n

[bebe]

Ha. the name Rubefacare always bothered me too. As you know from BD, I played your Sui deck to a first place finish twice ( I believe I changed one or two cards).

Know that I am glad to see you posting again even if we don't agree entirely. I have also gone away from Fireblasts in all my Sligh builds. Every card in Sligh is a finisher. So you need to weigh its pros and cons carefully. I don't see it in your deck either.

I do not see a reason for not adding Vise. I side a Vise in against control ( really ), so if you are trying to beat control game one it belongs. I take a little different approach as we get a number of random aggro decks here as well and I'm not willing to metagame quite as heavily as you.  

I use Rack and Ruin in a different sideboard now. I added two copies to my Workshop deck ( not TnT or Stacker but a Trisk/Copy deck ) and love it. My experience with it is great. But we see Workshop decks here less and less and it might just come out again.

I'm not against the first deck. We have been testing Sligh here too but we played a few versions with Ankh/PoP and were the results were mixed. I've played Azhrei's deck too and found it strong against control, BTW, but that is not the point. The metagame has changed. I'm more than willing to test Bridges when I get the chance.

Overall your decks look to be a good jumping off point. Obviously, people will need to adjust the decks to their play style and environment. The sideboard still is a bit of an issue for me but since I haven't tested some of the cards, I will reserve further comments based on hypothetical assumptions.

[Mith]

Rack and Ruin? Why not run Viashino Heretic...

Viashino Heretic
casting cost: R2
Tap, R1: Destroy target artifact and deal dmg equal to its casting cost to artifact's controler
1/3

Seems pretty good vs. TnT...

And why not run Dwarven Blastminer over the regular one? His ability to come in as a 2/2 colorless is great vs. a CoP: red or even the mirror.

[Dante]

Matt hit it on the head - Meekstone still allows them to attack once (issue with big fat, bigger issue with bigger fat like a 12/12 trampler).

@mith - the heretic is too slow, it takes 3 turns to kill two artifacts and the opponent can kill it in the meantime.

Dante

[MolotDET]

Legend - I am not worried about the Welder, but since I have quite a bit of play time in against TnT I can tell you that, when it hits it will be hasted.  So even if you kill it, it will still work once, and with Genesis in the grave they will be able to get it back, again and again.
      It is not that I think you will not be able to slow down TnT with Bridge, and not that you won't be able to deal with Welder everytime it hits the board.  I just think that removing their grave with Crypt and making the Welders impotent is better than wasting your burn on them (you remove Squee, Wonder, Anger, Genisis, Trikes, Memory Jar and what ever creature started the chain).  Their by making them play more land to actually cast their creatures so you can burn the player and/or the actual threat out of existance.  To sum this into one sentance, you can use cards with synergy to remove their synergy from the game, to better achive your goals.  I think here is where we might agree to disagree, because I think that either of these approches work well.
     Rack and Ruin is very good, I have tested it as well.  But when one of it's targets nolonger exists when it resolves, it fizzles and it needs two targets to be castable.  It is good, I am not saying it's bad, but some cards are of cheaper casting cost and are arguablly better against Mask, Sui, and U/r.

     Creatures - against decks that will be sideing in creature hate against you, would it not be better to make those cards wasted against you and to bring in cards that work against their deck?

Just a thought.

[edit] oh I was wondering what you though of browbeat against non-control decks.\n\n

[Akuma (gio)]

Dante - Against Mask you will take one hit regardless of whether you are using Meekstone or Ensnaring Bridge. The face down creature counts as a 0/1, so you can attack with it once.

[dandan]

Two excellent decks which represent what I have recently labelled 'aggro' Sligh and 'combo' Sligh.
I would only question the lack of Black Vise in the first deck as it has very good synergy with 5 strips, Shamen and Ankh while adding a colourless source of damage that requires no mana to operate, functions under a Null Rod and hurts the decks you are trying to hurt.
I would suspect that fetchlands would work in the goblin deck as they help the Rings, thin the deck while still putting a Mountain into play for Fireblast purposes.

Just for the record here is my version of the control end of the spectrum:

14 Mountain
1 Mox Ruby
1 Stripmine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Cursed Scroll
1 Black Vise

4 Jackal Pup
4 Goblin Cadets
4 Gorilla Shamen
3 Goblin Vandal
3 Dwarven Miner
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Incinerate
1 Fork

(I cut Wheel yesterday for the Lavamancer so still testing, Fork and the third Incinerate are also under review)

This version is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay slower than the aggro and combo Sligh decks but features a 24 card mana base, 15 cards which hit land/artifacts maindeck (19 if you include the Mishras which tend to 'pop' Wastelands), 9 maindeck non-red damage sources, good resistance to Powder Keg and the ability to fight on even under The Abyss, Nether Void or Oath.

Against the current random field I suspect the aggro build would have the best win percentage. I agree that Sligh traditionally dies best when unexpected, which is, to be fair, a fairly rare event. The current trend of trying out fetchlands in almost every deck looks like it greatly aids Sligh, especially Ankh Sligh.

P.S. Blastminer can't block 'phids, dies to a split Fire/Ice and the Dwarven Miner slot has been discarded in favour of Price of Progress by everyone except the die-hard control-Sligh fanatics\n\n

[Matt The Great]

Quote (MolotDET @ Dec. 18 2002,00:43)Rack and Ruin is very good, I have tested it as well.  But when one of it's targets nolonger exists when it resolves, it fizzles and it needs two targets to be castable.  

No. For a spell to fizzle ("be countered upon resolution") ALL its targets must be gone. A lone Welder doesn't stop Rack and Ruin.

The need for two artifacts to be in play is a problem, though.\n\n

[Dante]

Quote (Akuma (gio) @ Dec. 18 2002,02:19)Dante - Against Mask you will take one hit regardless of whether you are using Meekstone or Ensnaring Bridge. The face down creature counts as a 0/1, so you can attack with it once.

I know, my post was before meekstone was brought up.  The original note said that bridge shut the deck down, but each of the creatures can attack once under it.  All I was pointing out that that's not completely shut down since two 12 pt swings = death.

Dante

[Nova]

Do note that ensnaring bridge will stop the dreadnought if you burn the 0/1 creature.  Then it won't be able to get that 12 point swing in.

[Legend]

Thanks for all the suggestions. First of all, I wish to address the issue of Black Vise. As I said at the outset of this discussion, I am a supporter of Vise, and it was originally in my build of Ankh Sligh before I posted the deck. Problem was, I couldn't find room for it. I didn't want to play any less than 17 Mountains (the deck does need a reasonable amount of mana, despite the fact that all spells cost 2 or less, mainly because of the need to use Scroll effectively, plus the Bridges from the board). Furthermore, I didn't want to cut any of the creatures or burn spells down to 3 of.  So today, I looked over the deck again. Fork?  Can't cut it, it is just too good. Scroll? Ankh? No. Need four of each.

Then I came upon the card I am going to cut, at least for now. Wheel of Fortune. Why? Although the Wheel is undeniably powerful, and may have a future, my current reasoning is that the Wheel may not be that great in Ankh Sligh. For one thing, the departure of Fireblast: with Fireblast no longer a part of the Sligh equation, Wheel becomes less effective, as it will be harder to finish an opponent before they get to untap and drop you with their new 7.  It is likely that my opponent will be able to do something unacceptable with the cards obtained off the Wheel. With the amount of explosive decks running around right now (TNT comes to mind), the last thing I want is to fill up an opponent's hand and give them the opportunity to use their Wheel-obtained cards first. With this deck, I want to keep the game within a manageable boundary.

Now, to address a couple of other things that came up in this discussion before I post my revised lists. MolotDET asked me about Browbeat. I am not a supporter of this card. There are just better cards out there, whatever build of Sligh you play. It is just not high enough on the depth chart to see serious play in my view.  As for Red Stompy, dandan suggested the use of the fetchlands, which of course makes perfect sense. I would have included them in my original list, but I was just posting the deck as an afterthought.  But even with the fetchlands aboard, I don't support Grim Lavamancer (despite the interaction with fetchlands, which while notable, interferes with Barbarian Ring anyway). Mogg Fanatic is better in Red Stompy being that it is a goblin (better with Piledriver and Grenade), besides the fact that Fanatic is just a better card than Lavamancer, since its ability is not affected by summoning sickness, and is much more useful in my opinion.  Now, to the decklists.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ankh Sligh

4 Jackal Pup
4 Goblin Cadets
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
4 Price of Progress
1 Fork
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Ankh of Mishra
1 Black Vise
17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sample SB/Additional SB options:

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Dwarven Miner
3 Tormod's Crypt
-Mogg Fanatic
-Another Tormod's Crypt
-Rack and Ruin
-----------------------------------------------------------

Red Stompy

4 Goblin Grenade
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Reckless Charge
4 Goblin Cadets
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Jackal Pup
4 Mogg Flunkies
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Barbarian Ring
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain

Sample SB/Additional SB Options:

4 Flaring Pain
4 Pyrokinesis
Ensnaring Bridge?
Cursed Scroll?
Tormod's Crypt?

Note for this deck that I am not bothering with Miners, or any other form of land denial in either the maindeck or sideboard. The purpose of Red Stompy is to simply take the opponent from 20 to 0 as quickly as possible with no detours, hence it is streamlined for that purpose, and that purpose alone. Not that the other build isn't trying to do this, but obviously the two decks go about things in different ways. Pyrokinesis is present as in Ankh Sligh, because of its general usefulness and ease of casting. But why Flaring Pain in this deck, but not Ankh Sligh? Ankh Sligh has enough ways of getting around a COP: Red or other hosings as it is, given the plentiful colorless damage and land denial. But Red Stompy should at least have some cheap method of evading a hosing or pushing through the final points, and the Pains may be in order. As for the rest of the sideboard, it seems much more open than Ankh Sligh, given the different focus of the deck and the different mana base.

[Milton]

I put together the Legend Sligh Anti Control Version with the Ankhs (plus one Black Vise, minus one Goblin (keeping the Fork in)).  I really, really get hosed by Keg and Fire/Ice.  Keg for 1 is a killer.  So much so that I am thinking about trying to fit Pillage in there, or maybe Dwarven Miner.  Both would work great with the Ankhs.  Pillage would keep away Kegs but reduce the threats.

But Ankh's do a ton of dammage.  Do we still need Goblins if we run 4 Pups, 4 Shaman, burn and Scrolls?

[MolotDET]

Milton Goblins are only good if you are expecting to see mostly Control decks.  They are absolutely horrible against anything else,  The deck I posted last week explained that, you should replace them with Fanatics in a less control heavy enviroment.
     As far as the killer kegs go.  I'm not sure how this goes in Legend's version but after SB you go down to 8 creatures (fanatics and Monkies) so that you only have quick hit utility creatures.  This way, if they side in Kegs and other creautre control, you have scammed them.
     As for Dwarven miners and Pillage, once again in a control heavy meta Miners will be good, but anywhere else they will be too slow and will consume a third of your useful SB slots.  While against control they have less of a chance of surviving than anywhere else, except the Sligh mirror.
      As a three cc card Pillage is sort of weak.  While it's effect is great, 3 cc cards in Sligh should be bombs an Pillage is not.  Something with the weight of Wheel, which while nolonger in Legend's build for obvious reasons (no mox = no mana execeration)  The only other 3cc card I would use is Browbeat and that is situational to only decks with no counters.


One last point on Ankh - the faster you get an Ankh out the better it will do for you.  By that logic getting one out on first turn is the best possible play.  With no mox there is no chance of a first turn Ankh.  Also with no mana ecceleration
there is no chance for painless mana drops under Ankh.  Though my maindeck has been critizised for it, I think the inclusion of Lotus and at least the mox is of paramount importance.
      This is my deck list from the "Evolution of Sligh" thread.

Dark Elf Sligh(Sly) version 2.0

  Mana
1 Mox Ruby
11 Mountain
3 Barbarian Ring
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
  Dorks
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Jackal Pup
4 Mogg Fanatic
  Red Damage
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
  Colorless
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Black Vice
4 Ankh of Mishra
  Utility
1 Wheel of Fortune

    SideBoard1
3 Browbeat
2 Price of Progress
4 Scald
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Overload

[Legend]

To address the most recent points made by Milton and MolotDET:

1. Powder Keg: Look, this card sucks for the Sligh deck, and I am really not all that interested in diluting my deck in an attempt to get around it. This may not sound like the greatest solution, but as far as Keg goes, you just sort of live with it. Nothing's perfect, there are always going to be annoying cards for any deck to deal with. I don't worry too much about what my opponent is going to do, I just play my game.  Just be careful. Don't drop all your one mana cards into play. You drop a couple of creatures, then nothing else until those are dealt with. Sligh is a resilient deck.

2. Pillage: I am strongly against this card. At three mana, it is just way, way too slow against control decks. Its chances of resolving are marginal. That is why everything in my deck costs 2 or less, and that should always be the case with Type I Sligh. The only exceptions should be sideboard cards like Bridge.

3. Goblins: Milton asked why we need Goblins. I'm just pointing to the Goblin deck as an alternative, if you feel like playing a hyper-aggressive deck instead of Ankh Sligh. I have said that I prefer Ankh Sligh, but the Goblin deck is just there in case anyone cares to give it a try. It is fast, but not as steady, hence I prefer Ankh Sligh. Unless Milton was just referring to cutting the Cadets from Ankh Sligh, which I would not be in favor of. I like the current balance of the deck.

4. Sideboarding strategy: MolotDET mentioned keeping in only Shamans and Fanatics for the second and third games against Keeper. Problem is, I don't even have Fanatics in the maindeck, and even if I had them in the SB, I wouldn't bring them in against Keeper. I think I would keep in the Pups, Cadets, and Shamans, because you don't want to abandon your early pressure. If they are playing Keg, no big deal, you just play one at a time (at most two) and get some good early hits in. If you suspect Caltrops is coming in, then maybe you cut either the Cadets or Pups, but I strongly advise keeping them in. I think a potential sideboardin strategy for the back two games would be -4 Incinerate for +4 Dwarven Miner. Remember, if you cut too many creatures, early Wastelands will have less of an effect because you won't have pressure in play. Everything is different once you have a 2/1 in play chipping away. It creatues a little urgency for the control deck, gives them something to keep an eye on.

5. Artifact mana: Mox Ruby definitely belongs if you have it (I don't, so it is not in my lists). But  Black Lotus doesn't belong - there are just not too many exciting things you can so with it. I'd rather have a mountain in that slot for consistency sake. Don't worry about taking damage from your own Ankh, the opponent will be suffering a lot more, unless they are playing a similar deck, in which case the Ankhs are being sided out anyway. As for Mox Diamond, I strongly disapprove of this choice, Sligh is fast enough, the last thing you need to be doing is tossing away land from an already limited supply. However, I do wonder whether Sol Ring might have some value. You can bring out first-turn Ankhs with it, and it helps operate Scrolls. After SB'ing, it helps with the Bridges too. Can't find room for it right now, but I am thinking of it.

6: Dwarven Miner: Obviously a great card against Keeper, but I am not prepared to maindeck it, even at Neutral Ground (for now at least). I feel comfortable enough game 1 against control. I do think Miner is usually worth at least 3 slots in the sideboard, though. Unless of course you are absolutely certain that Keeper is not around on that given day. Then you can up your SB counts of other cards, such as Tormod's Crypt or Rack and Ruin. Pyrokinesis and Bridge are two cards that I think I would always like to have, though, and are good starting points for any environment.

[wuaffiliate]

this may be slighly off topic but this is what ive come to play instead of sligh. it involves alot of the same properties but tries to abuse Quirion Dryad and Kird Ape. The mana base is not hurt by non basic hate, the deck itself is slightly faster if not as fast as current sligh.

im not trying to get off topic but  really believe it can do what sligh does, but more efficiently with better SB options.

//NAME: CocoAndFriends
// Critters
        4 Quirion Dryad
        4 Kird Ape
        4 Jackal Pup
        4 Goblin Cadets
        3 Mogg Fanatic or Gorilla Shaman
// Burn/Utility
        4 Lightning Bolt
        4 Chain Lightning
        4 Incinerate
        4 Flame Rift
        3 Cursed Scroll
// Mana
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Emerald
        4 Taiga
        3 Mountain
        1 Forest
        4 Wooded Foothills
        3 Bloodstained Mire
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
SB:  4 Naturalize
SB:  4 City of Solitude
SB:  4 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  3 Hull Breach

just some ideas

[Rico Suave]

Legend, regarding your Ankh sligh, what do you SB against mono-U/Parfait to replace the Price of Progress?  Do you just throw in Dwarven Miner because it's a threat?