GroAtog – Well, it’s April 1st, Where are we Now

[David Hernandez]

Hi Justin,

my build includes Regrowth for exactly the reasons you mentioned, but i have been doing some testing without it.  It is better IN from what i can see.

i agree with your comments about Fastbond: only play it if you are running Future Sight. i dont see Fastbond as simply a "win more" card at that point.  It does far more than make the YawgWill better.  As for FS, with mana drains it can come out quickly, and once it hits the table you will pretty much just win (especially with Fastbond in the deck).

the fact that Siral was undefeated out of 79 players should force a second look at this deck.  

Also, with the advent of WelderMUD, i am considering Null Rods in the sideboard to stop the Mana Acceleration (both Metalworkers and Artifact Mana, and to hose the Triskelions and the Karns).

Dave.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I'm not going to say much more before I get some decent testing under my belt, but I do want some more feedback on the zuran orb issue.

I plan on testing a build with future sight and fastbond.  This engine looks similar to the Shining engine, so I can see where it would be attractive to run zuran orb.  I think the key differences with GAT are that: (1) it runs 13 lands where Shining usually runs at least five more than this.  this is a big difference in the capability to use lands as a buffer against life.  This means the Zuran Orb will most likely only be used effectively in combination with Yawgwill, (2) GAT has 4x dryad and at least 3 tog to stand in the way of creatures while its 'setting up'.  Shining eventually ran just one dedicated creature removal slot.  In other words, GAT should have more life to play with once it gets fastbond out and starts churning out extra land.

I'd like to hear some good opposing arguments, so far you guys haven't disappointed.

[Grand Inquisitor]

After another weekend testing GAT I have some news on my progressing build.  I went undefeated in four rounds of swiss on Friday, and went 4-2 (T8) on saturday.  I lost matches to Stax (not surprisingly) and Madness.

First, Future Sight didn't disappoint.  I never had trouble casting it, and although I pitched it every so often, I rarely shuffled it back with brainstorm.  If I have either black lotus or future sight with a tutor in opening hand, it is quite easy to drop it turn 2 with pitch counter back up.  This is game against a lot of decks.  Granted, its a low probability draw, but its one more auto-win hand the deck can offer.

The only negative thing I will say about future sight is that sometimes it felt like a win more card.  This feeling may be biased because of playing against a lot of scrubs on saturday, but there were times I would have liked to have the single pernicious deed that Siral was running.  I may tinker with my build and see if I can fit it in.

I still have no desire to run zuran orb, and fastbond still allows the deck to be aggro-combo-control in the absence of 4x Gush.

The mana base and counterbase are solid with the possible changes occuring depending on future testing:

-1 island
+1 sol ring (in order to easier cast wish, ak, sight)

-1 divert
+1 mana drain

Dropping the divert will probably end up being a metagame choice where I drop it in aggro-heavy environments aka Hadley, and leave it in for more diverse or control heavy environments.

I am always tempted to fit strip mine into the deck.  I know some builds use a sideboard slot for it.  Does anyone have strong results one way or another with this?  With madness, dragon, workshop decks, and anything packing LoA as targets, strip mine is very strong right now.



**This isn't an 'up' since I have new results to convey.  If this double post is out of flavor for EVF, please MOD appropriately and PM with suggestions**

[David Hernandez]

hi GI,

with your results (and those of Siral), i am going to drop the Zuran Orb (and move it to the sideboard, like Siral did).

Strip Mine is definitely tempting, but i find that the low mana count of this deck forces me to run color with everything except the LOA.

i know what you mean in regard to FS sometimes feeling like a "win more" card.  I think its because there is only one in the deck.  But, when it hits, you basically win.

here is my current list:

GroAtog David Hernandez 9/22/2003

2 Psychatog
(2)

3 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
(5)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
3 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
2 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Future Sight
1 Time Walk
1 Gush
(24)

4 Quirion Dryad
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond
1 Berserk
(7)

1 Pernicious Deed
(1)

Mana:
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
(21)

Sideboard:
2 Naturalize
2 Coffin Purge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Null Rod
1 Zuran Orb
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Energy Flux
2 Blue Elemental Blast
(15)

You mentioned dropping an Island in favor of Sol Ring, and i may do that too. It gives good acceleration, especially since i am now running FS.  It also helps with the Cunning Wishes/Scroll/Timewalk/Deed/Tog/etc.

i am also considering Lim Duls Vault in either the SB or main.  I like it better than Vampiric Tutor.

Congrats on doing well at that tourney.

dave.\n\n

[Ultima]

After viewing the top decks in the format, I decided to give GAT a shot as I think it could be really good despite gush's horrible death.  Accordingly, I tested it extensively against mud to start with and have moved on to Long then Hulk and Keeper.  I have read all the posts on this and have come up with this being my most successful build thus far after testing(despite Mirrodin's coming)

GAT 04

Kill
2 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

Counter/Answer
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Broken
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Draw/Search
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Future Sight
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Cunning Wish
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

ManaSources
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Stripmine
1 City of Brass
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta

SB
1 Stifle
1 Gush
1 Berserk
1 Naturalize
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Smother
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Coffin Purge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Energy Flux
2 Null Rod
2 Tormod's Crypt

I have found that the 3rd wish is a must have.  I often find myself wanting a wish to berserk a dryad and finish it but running only 2 makes for a unlikely of that happening.  Additionally the 3rd wish is necassary for the removal when one doesn't want to explode a deed and lose his tog and 6/6 dryad on the table but wants to get rid of that damn welder.

I think that is somewhat of a wrong direction to focus on deck manipulation and intense search/draw because gush was its backbone.  This is the reason Fastbond/Opt/Zorb was not included.  Now that it is broken, it seems more optimal to focus straight drawing and outcounter/removal because of that current format(though that will change in a week or two).  With this build, mud is really not that difficult to defeat but post board it gets slightly more difficult but not much.

Keeper doesn't really give a hassle as they are mostly expending resources to deal with the early dryad.  Most of the time you fight a ridiculous counter war over dryads then in the mid-game you just win with a tog.

Hulk is a more difficult matchup however.  You need the land destruction early and try to play off their AKs when you play FOF or Sight to throw em off.  Then you really gotta fight for that dryad and berserk em quick after the counter war otherwise they wish and remove then tog berserk.  After SBing is its not as bad with the Crypts though but one has to fight to get them out and play them pro-actively.  Sometimes its worth it use the rods too.

Long is pretty much a 40/60- 30/70 shot.  Just have to mulli for the force then board the crypts, rods and hope.

I am contemplating taking out the off-color mox for a 4th waste.

Comments?\n\n

[erik]

As much as I loved GAT I think one fundamental question needs to be asked; with Gush restricted, why not just play Hulk? The last list posted is about 10 cards different than a standard Hulk build (not counting wastelands), and are these cards different enough to keep the two decks distinct from eachother without one deck being superior? Fact and Sight are analog to the DA's in Hulk and the same could almost be said about Misdirection and Hulks' Duress. The lone Berserk has moved to the board to be wished for, another move in Hulks' direction. The remaining difference is Quirion dryads and Deed vs. Intuition, Twist, Scroll and 3rd Tog. I would argue that running 4 AK and full mana acceleration (including drains) without Intuition is just bad deckbuilding, and that Deed MD is actually worse in GAT than in Hulk because of the Dryads.

So, the differences between GAT and Hulk can only be justified by meta. But to be honest, Misdirection is SO much worse than Duress against the top t1 decks right now. Dryad with Mis-D protection is awesome against Sligh, Zoo and maybe old-school Keeper, but those decks are nowhere to be seen anymore. Playing threats instead of draw/search means a shift towards the early game, but what good is Future sight without Fastbond and AK's without Intuition then?

I'm not out to flame the deck, but since this is the Extreme Vintage Forum these problems needs to be adressed or the deck has no place in the T1 meta. What decks does this deck have a better game against than Hulk?

[Mellow D]

@erik:  Fish, Sui (Chains + Rod), and Gobbo Sligh are still present in top metagames.  Misdirected Curiosities (on a Dryad!), Hymns/Sinks, and Bolt/Chains are still good.  With the Dryads though, the mana curve is a little more resilient against Chalices.  If you examine some testing done by Smmenen in the Type 1 Forum, even Hulk has a hard time against Workshop Chalice decks.  GAT may be a more appropriate solution if you still want to run some version of Tog.

As for the Future Sight/Fastbond question, do you really need Fastbond when you're running so few lands?  

I see what you're saying though with regards to the metagame now.  I would rather just play Hulk as well.

[Grand Inquisitor]

@erik,

You bring up a number of important questions, some of which have already been answered.

To start, you're completely right.  GAT is a metagame deck.  Hulk has a better composite record against the variety of competitive decks you will see at a large tournament.  The most notable decks that hulk has a better matchup against are Workshop based decks due to Hulk's higher mana count, better acceleration, and access to artifact mutation.  The high mana count also aids Hulk against anything packing 5 strips, but these matchups are also decks that usually have juicy misdirection targets.

Other matchups where Hulk is a better choice is anything where having duress game 1 is a large advantage (re: combo).  These matchups are only marginally better, as GAT will bring in its 3 duress game 2 if it doesn't run them maindeck already.

So this leaves the question, what is GAT good against?  First and foremost, GAT has a advantageous matchup versus Hulk itself.  Hulk has benefitted from an environment with few competitive aggro-control decks.  Fish and EBA being the exceptions, both of which do well enough against Hulk.  This is not to say that GAT is a complete foil for Hulk, but it forces Hulk to play a game its not comfortable doing.  Most of the bombs against control: Deep Analysis and Mind Twist are great Misdirection targets.  Hulk also likes to go down to two (or even one) Tog and no removal against control; it can't afford this, as it must now try to develop its draw engine and bring in smother/deed/etc.  Lastly, with the substitution of search spells for AK, GAT now has a midgame that it has lacked since the restriction of Gush.  Most of the Hulk/GAT games will come down to who can win the last big counter-war over AK, or, who can lay a Tog and play their own AK's safely.

Besides being a good foil for Tog, GAT still features upwards of 12-13 counterspells, making it a hassle for combo.  Most builds maindeck duress, which adds to the misery.  In my build, I run diver, daze, and can bring in duress out of the sideboard, making effectively 18 counters games 2&3 (albeit, 4 of these are misdirect effects).  This combined with the ability to attack a bargain player's life even faster than Hulk is impressive.

Against aggro, GAT packs the same sideboard solutions, but with dryad as a 2-drop, it can conserve life even better than Hulk.  It also packs the aforementioned misdirections, which are usually game breakers when targeting bolts, hymns, curiosity, firey temper, even rancor.

GAT's problem with most aggro, is that it no longer has the luxury of being able to Gush its lands away from strip effects.  The maindeck has been adjusted to compensate for this, but this is still an area where Hulk has a slight advantage.

Another subtle difference that may prove significant depending on further testing, is whether GAT can efficiently use Future Sight.  No one can doubt the power of this card once it hits the table (note the highly conditional clause 'if'), and GAT does have 7 pitch counters to force it out early.

Overall, GAT is not much different than Hulk, except that it is meta-gamed to an environment where you plan to see lots of misdirectable spells, and not many workshops.  It also gets its offense started a turn sooner than Hulk in games where that matters.  It can't be played everywhere to great success, but it is a completely viable deck, and not simply a sub-optimal version of Hulk.

[Ultima]

Actually, I have been thinking about adding red for the artifact removal that will very necassary after mirrodin.

What do you all think?

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think adding red would require bumping the mana count even further.  I know your last list had 25 sources, but I do not think this is the direction GAT should go.  I want to run as close to 20 as possible, and the current version can't go the route of 4c GAT since it only has a lone gush to protect its base.  From what I've tested, going to that high of a land count, and trying to convolute the mana-base even further will turn it into a bad hulk, or at least a bad GAT.

[Ultima]

I understand your view however, it looks like GAT will suffer a heavier blow than Hulk when it comes to chalice.

I imagine it will become increasingly difficult to handle workshop and keeper decks without the red inclusion as I think that after looking at the artifact possibilities, meltdown + shaman look the most promising.

I have also thought about the inclusion of scepter

Your thoughts?

[Grand Inquisitor]

If we are just focusing on chalice of the void, as opposed to the rest of Mirrodin, and what the metagame may shift to, then I think GAT fares much better than Hulk.

0: GAT doesn't run as much jewelry as Hulk
1: GAT has dropped sleight/opt, and my build doesn't maindeck duress, like Hulk does
2: This certainly hits GAT heavier, since most are running a 4/2 dryad/tog creature base, but you could also argue that Hulk is more dependent on AK for draw, and 2cc counterspells
3: No brainer.

Obviously chalice is still problematic for GAT, depending on the count and the hand, but I would say overall it is worse for Hulk.

I want to make it clear that this argument is based on theory alone, as I have not tested for Mirrodin yet.  However, I think the points are clear and it is obvious that while mostly similar, GAT has a marginal advantage against chalice.

[Ultima]

Perhaps then the proper idea would to include artifact removal of varying costs.  Such as naturalize and crumble.  I do think however that a steady mana count of at least 24 is optimal because it seems that playing against 5 strips in both workshop and keeper decks while under a chalice would be a almost certainly a loss with only 20-21 manasources.

[ELD]

I recently won a small tournament by morphing my Hulk into a GAT build.  I took an pretty standard Hulk build and took out the A.K.'s leaving 3 deep analysis and 2 intuition. I also took out the drains for misdirects as it would be needed against aggro.  (Hymn, Sink, Burn etc..) Lastly I added gush again.  It did very well against the Hulk mirror as the dryads were quickly pumped by flashing back the deep analysis a couple times.  I feel this could do well in a control field (just run the drains over the misdirects there) as a first turn dryad can be a quick game.  Didn't see if anyone else had tried to run the Intuition/D.A. combo over opt and a couple other cards.  

Peace,
Eric
ELD

[Ultima]

I actually tried deep analysis over ak as well for the hulk matchup and i thought they were too clunky.  I felt the aks were much better because you could cycle through them so much faster for a bigger dryad.

But if you liked them there then great, and congrats on winning.

[Grand Inquisitor]

First, out with the old:

Quote  I took an pretty standard Hulk build and took out the A.K.'s leaving 3 deep analysis and 2 intuition

My problem with this is directly related to the differences between my build and Ultima's build: I think GAT excels due to its low mana/high threat ratio.  This means I'm going to try to push my build as close to 20 sources as possible.  For this Intuition and Deep Ansalysis are simply too expensive for the deck's curve.  While extremely similar, GAT and Hulk really are two different decks.

Regardless of mana cost, I also find that since GAT wants to win at least a full turn faster than Hulk, Intuition->DA is just too slow.  When I tutor with GAT, I'm almost always getting one of the following things: Black Lotus, Yawgmoth's Will, Fastbond, Ancestral Recall, AK for 3+, or Future Sight.  This means huge draw spells or combo parts that have an immediate impact.  Deep Analysis certainly turns the tide of a game over the course of two or three turns, but the momentum swings my current GAT build are capable of only need a single turn.

Now, in with the new:

Over the weekend I won two tournaments with my GAT build (full reports forthcoming), playing against the following decks: Long, MUD, Keeper, Hulk, Fish, Dragon, Sligh, and Oath.

Here's my latest list (changes in bold), some thoughts on the cards I've tested, and my experiences with certain matchups.

GAT, 10-12-03

Creatures (6)
2 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

Counter/Answer (13)
1 Divert
1 Daze
1 Powder Keg
2 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Broken (4)
1 Time Walk
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Future Sight

Draw/Search (15)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

ManaSources (21)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand

SB (15)
1 Misdirection
1 Berserk
1 Naturalize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Coffin Purge
2 Smother
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
2 Tormod's Crypt

Like Siral's build with a maindeck Pernicious Deed, I wanted some form of removal besides Cunning Wish-> Answer.  I felt Pernicous Deed was too mana intensive (both cost and specificity), and powder keg is an old favorite from my emerald alice days.  It proved quite effective in matches against sligh, fish, and MUD.  After discussing with billtheduck, I may test the deed, but I am quite happy with the powder keg for now.

I've also tinkered with the mana base to support two of my favorite cards: strip mine and sol ring.  Strip Mine was something I should have come around on much sooner, but I finally found room.  Sol Ring is one of the most underated cards in magic, and with AK, Wishes, and Future Sight, is an appropriate addition that pulls more weight than an off color mox.

The last changes are to the sideboard, so they really only pertain to the environment.  This is the list I played at Hadley and RI.  The two crypts are due to the high frequency of Hulk, Bazaar based decks, and anything featuring AK.  I also learned from someone in RI (help me out Kerz?) that they work well against long.dec as well.  The smothers and beb's were for dragon, madness, and suicide.

Matchups: These are based on tournament experience, not 100's of testing games.  Take it as you may.

Good Matchups:
Sligh
Fish
Keeper (obviously it depends)
Dragon

Favorable Matchups:
Long
Hulk
Suicide

Tough Matchups:
Madness

Scoopable Matchups:
Workshop based decks

I know this is skimpy on content, but I'm in a rush and will fill in later.

I know Ultima has a few tournaments coming up, so I'd like to hear from other people about how their builds are shaping up.  Although this has a tight curve (chalice), I see no reasons GAT can't adjust to the new Mirrodin environment.  The only thing that can set chalice to 2 is Workshop, which is pretty much its worst matchup anyways.  As always, time will tell.

[Siral]

Since workshop based deck was your worst matchup why you use 4 maindeck spells like 1 divert 1 daze and 2 misdirection that are not good choices for your problem...


You can evolve the maindeck like hulk smash one with maindeck duress as protection (at least 3) and the 4th sloth for 2nd powder keg (always useful)

I'll cut also the strip mine for a regrowth (time walk regrowth time walk under future sight   ) and make some sideboard changes


My actual GAT sideboard is

1 Berserk
1 Hurky's Recall
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Naturalize
1 Crumble
2 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
2 Smother
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Arcane Lab (or Null Rod)
1 Energy Flux (Workshop deck must die)
1 Zuran Orb (Since i dont use misdirection i need some protection from sligh deck and Zuran is a good combo with fastbond and yawgmoth's will)

[Ultima]

I think its kinda funny you say that GI, because in my testing against workshop decks, i have not lost to them yet.

I don't know but every game I've played against them has been favorable, Wmud I have considered a favorable mathcup for quite some time after testing.

PS, I'll pm you results real soon as promised.