BR Sui Article Up For Review

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote You're right about the Dreadnaught sometimes being untouchable by Vandal, but you have to remember that it is ALWAYS untouchable by Shaman. This is definitely a plus for the "Vandal" side of the debate, and no fooling.

If we know that Vandal probably won't connect, which we do, then the Vandal is still useless here in my book.

Quote "This is where Shaman can shine"

The thing is, in those cases Null Rod would shine even better. Null Rod really makes Shaman obsolete.

I don't see it that way at all.  Shaman, when used in conjunction with Withered Wretch, makes sure that the Moxen are gone for good.  Null Rod simply needs to be dealt with by the Control player to get back into the game.  You can just do so much more with Shaman, especially in response to Wish - Answer.

Quote "If Vandal is put into play early, a smart Stax/MUD player will just go Tangle Wire and tap Vandal for the time being."

Wouldn't they do that anyway? I fail to see how Shaman would be better in this case. A resolved Wire is rough going for you no matter what 1cc creature you're playing.

Shaman doesn’t need to tap to use its ability, unlike Vandal.  Shaman is not only able to work under Tangle Wire, but it also has the ability to take out multiple Moxen in one shot, unlike Vandal.  Sure, Null Rod takes care of Moxen as well, but that’s all it takes care of.  Spheres are going to cause you headaches galore if you don’t remove them.  Also, for games two and three you’re really missing the synergy between Goblin Welder and Gorilla Shaman.  The fact that you can simply use them during your upkeep in response to Tangle Wire really makes them much better than Vandal.  

Quote missing consult: the article build and a lot of the posted decks are missing demonic consultation. This is an oversight. It is a demonic tutor for 1 mana at instant speed. I know some people say they don’t like it because you can get really unlucky, but the odds of that happening are very rare compared to the odds of it getting you the card you need. The odds are in your favor, not playing this card in sui is always the result of using superstition rather than testing.  

If you were talking about Void, I would be agreeing with you completely that Consult needs to be in.  In Sui, however, you don't need to Consult nearly as often, if at all.  In Void, I would consult for two cards: Nether Void and Deed/Keg.  In Sui, what would I want to have Consult for in the deck?  Null Rod?  No.  I have 3 Null Rod and 4 Gorilla Shaman - I have enough Mox killers MD that I don't need to Consult for one, though there could be a random occasion where I would want to Consult for Null Rod, like against Burning Academy.  Really, there isn't a need in the deck for Consult, and now the deck is getting to the point where it is becoming as tight as it can be and there really aren't any cards I would want to cut from the main deck.

Quote Shaman: I’m not sure about this guy. I think 3 rods should be enough to handle most artifact stuff. I think you should probably replace him with hippie, although if you see round after round of artifact prison I could understand him. He’s not really all that good v combo so you don’t need him there. The point was made that against control null rod only hold moxes until they wish for pulse. But in reality, they will probably wish for stp, not pulse so that’s not a major concern.

There are three Workshop decks that are very viable and are good in the current metagame - MUD, $T4KS, and Stacker III.  On top of this, we have decks like Hulk and Keeper packing full sets of Moxen and running Wishable artifact hate in the sideboard.  After playing against the Workshop decks, I'm finding that Null Rod only slows them down - unless you have a way to shut them down completely (ie, Shaman – Welder, or even just killing off Sphere with Shaman in game 1) it will be a very difficult matchup for you. The exception to this rule is Stacker III - the matchup can be pretty close even if you're playing mono-black Sui with Null Rods.  After playing against Hulk, I’ve found that Shamans really pull their weight, as they kill Moxen and serve as Therapy fodder when needed.  In any case, there is no argument about Shaman vs. Hyppie.  If you want to win the Workshop match ups, you need Shaman to give you a better chance at winning game 1 and to complement Welder in games 2 and 3.

Quote   Against control LD is how you win. Brainstorm can protect the best cards from discard and losing an AK or DA to discard doesn’t really hurt. On the other hand, LD can choke off a color they need to stop you (like white for stp balance) or keep them below their critical mana number so they can’t cast DA, tog, or intuition.

In my opinion, Control has changed a lot.  Keeper is still around, but I really see Hulk being THE control deck to beat.  Against Hulk, you want to shut off their artifact mana and their graveyard in addition to wrecking their hand via sniping cards with Duress and Cabal Therapy.  Combine that with 5 Strips, and you can hold your ground against Hulk.  As for Brainstorm, it will protect their cards for a little bit, but even then they won’t always have Brainstorm when you Therapy, or if you can snag their key cards with an early Duress/Therapy, you can turn the game greatly in your favor.  

Quote  How much luck are you having with bloodmoon? I know with tog I think I’ve maybe lost one game to blood moon despite having it cast against me tons of times. The fetch a basic island plan really works. And it seems like without sinks there’s not much you can do about basic islands. Although, my experience with blood moon is mostly from red decks backed up with red blasts so it might not apply here to a deck with a different disruption suite.

The difference between the decks you have faced and this one is that Blood Moon is their only mode of disruption, so it’s much easier for you to get around it.  Here, the idea is to slow the Hulk player down even more with Blood Moon regardless of whether or not he has an Island out.  Remember, as a BR Sui player I’m also going to be wanting to hit you in your hand, your graveyard, and I will be wanting to blow up your Moxen as well.\n\n

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Os-Vegeta @ Aug. 30 2003,23:42)In any case, there is no argument about Shaman vs. Hyppie.  If you want to win the Workshop match ups, you need Shaman to give you a better chance at winning game 1 and to complement Welder in games 2 and 3.

How does Shaman give you a better first game against Workshop decks moreso than Goblin Vandal?  

And after boarding, you don't need to use Shamans to get cards into their grave.  Not only is there discard, but their artifacts kill themselves (Smokestack/Wire).  Goblin Vandal also works on it's own to take out dangerous threats when Welder does not show up, while Shaman gets eaten up.

Shaman is marginally better against Tog than Vandal, but I found myself boarding out Shaman anyway.  Null Rod does everything Shaman would, but faster and more complete.  Shaman does not stop Lotus, nor does it stop them from hoarding Moxen and dropping them to get a key boost.  Of course a control player can deal with Null Rod, but if they can Wish for an answer and cast it then Null Rod wasn't mana screwing them anyway.

[Matt The Great]

If they can spare a Wish to get artifact kill, perhaps you have already lost.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote How does Shaman give you a better first game against Workshop decks moreso than Goblin Vandal?  

Like I said before, Vandal gets stopped in its tracks by Tangle Wire.  That is why Shaman gives you a better first game - you can blow up their Moxen and, when you get the mana, their Spheres.  What can you do with Vandal under a Tangle Wire?  Not much.  

Quote And after boarding, you don't need to use Shamans to get cards into their grave.  Not only is there discard, but their artifacts kill themselves (Smokestack/Wire).

So let me get this straight - you want to weld in one of their weapons to take out another, or am I misunderstanding you?  You know they'll be getting their artifact acceleration out ASAP, which is where Shaman would come in to help out Welder - kill Mox, weld Mox for threat artifact X, kill Mox again.  

Quote Goblin Vandal also works on it's own to take out dangerous threats when Welder does not show up, while Shaman gets eaten up.

Please elaborate on this more.  I've already made the argument that Tangle Wire just stops Vandal, and I have enough experience against Workshop decks to know that they will have a Tangle Wire in hand more often than not.  

Quote Shaman is marginally better against Tog than Vandal, but I found myself boarding out Shaman anyway.

What exactly does your sideboarding look like?  

Quote Null Rod does everything Shaman would, but faster and more complete.  Shaman does not stop Lotus, nor does it stop them from hoarding Moxen and dropping them to get a key boost.  Of course a control player can deal with Null Rod, but if they can Wish for an answer and cast it then Null Rod wasn't mana screwing them anyway.

You make some good points here, but really the argument seems to be turning into Shaman vs. Null Rod instead of what it originally was: Shaman vs. Vandal.  Null Rod is a good artifact hoser - I agree.  The thing is, look at all the decks that utilize full sets of Moxen anymore - a lot.  So, Null Rod is definitely good in the MD, but four copies seems to be a bit much for game 1. Being you're only running 3 Null Rod and the deck doesn't have the vast digging abilities that control and combo do, there will be games where you never draw Null Rod.  To be a bit redundant while not making it overly redundant, Gorilla Shaman is a good choice - it's a creature (thus becoming Therapy food should it ever be "dead"), it kills Moxen in multiples, and it's a key card in the Workshop match up.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Os-Vegeta @ Aug. 31 2003,14:08)Like I said before, Vandal gets stopped in its tracks by Tangle Wire.  That is why Shaman gives you a better first game - you can blow up their Moxen and, when you get the mana, their Spheres.  What can you do with Vandal under a Tangle Wire?  Not much.  

But Null Rod does that.

And without Wire, Vandal is SO much better.  Don't forget that Wire fades away too, and even tapping 2-3 permanents doesn't always stop Vandal.

And how much else does Shaman do without Welder?  

Quote What exactly does your sideboarding look like?  

Against Tog, it would usually involve taking out Shaman first, and Cabal Therapy comes out second, depending on what I board in.

I try to board in some removal since Tog on the board is brutal.

Other things beyond removal I board in include Blood Moon, Chains of Mephistopheles, and other random junk when it's actually in my board.  Currently I don't use any of those, and Chains isn't as good as it should be against Tog because it applies no pressure and eventually gets Deeded away.

Quote You make some good points here, but really the argument seems to be turning into Shaman vs. Null Rod instead of what it originally was: Shaman vs. Vandal.  Null Rod is a good artifact hoser - I agree.  The thing is, look at all the decks that utilize full sets of Moxen anymore - a lot.  So, Null Rod is definitely good in the MD, but four copies seems to be a bit much for game 1. Being you're only running 3 Null Rod and the deck doesn't have the vast digging abilities that control and combo do, there will be games where you never draw Null Rod.  To be a bit redundant while not making it overly redundant, Gorilla Shaman is a good choice - it's a creature (thus becoming Therapy food should it ever be "dead"), it kills Moxen in multiples, and it's a key card in the Workshop match up.

But you see, I disagree where you think it's not overly redundant.  You have to admit it's a LOT of things devoted to destroying Moxen.

I don't think it can be compared strictly Vandal vs. Shaman, or even Shaman vs. Null Rod.  I think it's an overall synergy that must be taken into account.  I always found it painful to draw Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman, but Vandal takes out the things Null Rod does not.  They complement each other.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote And without Wire, Vandal is SO much better. Don't forget that Wire fades away too, and even tapping 2-3 permanents doesn't always stop Vandal.

But there is Wire, and the Workshop player will find a way to deal with the Vandal or keep it tapped (Welder tricks) once the Tangle Wire starts fading away.

Quote and Cabal Therapy comes out second, depending on what I board in.

This is really surprising to me.  I have had good experiences thus far with Cabal Therapy, so good that I won't side them out against Tog.  

Quote But you see, I disagree where you think it's not overly redundant.  You have to admit it's a LOT of things devoted to destroying Moxen.

It's also a lot of things where only half of them are purely devoted to shutting down artifact acceleration, that half being Null Rod.  The other half, the Gorilla Shamans, can swiftly off Moxen (which is definitely something you want early in the game once you hit the upper tables), attack, serve as Therapy fuel when you want to flash back, and with a little mana invested it can take out a Sphere of Resistance (yes it is doable, and yes I have done it on multiple occasions).

Quote I don't think it can be compared strictly Vandal vs. Shaman, or even Shaman vs. Null Rod.  I think it's an overall synergy that must be taken into account.

That's what I was getting at, except I see the synergy between Welder, Shaman, and Wretch.  I can see your point on synergy between Vandal and Null Rod, but my point is how often is Vandal going to connect, and how often will you have both Null Rod and Vandal on the board?  I don't want to be relying on Vandal to kill off opposing acceleration.  That's not what he is designed to do, and the job he is designed for is better suited in Lackey Sligh, where it will almost be a given that Tangle Wire won't tap it due to Lackey - Siegegang Commander, or just getting multiple Goblins out at once through hardcasting.\n\n

[Os-Vegeta]

Since Mirrodin is so close now, I see no reason to get any closure on the article now.  It's better to wait until after Mirrodin is released to see what changes will be made.  In the meantime, there are enough arguments for Goblin Vandal to warrant testing it, though I am still very skeptical about the card.  In any case, I'll get testing in as soon as I can with Vandal to see for myself if the arguments for it hold up.

[Ric_Flair]

First, this is a very good thread.  Some of the users/newbies should read this and take heed.  The comments here all seem to be based on empirical results.  This is a good thing.

Overall Impressions

Sui and Gobbo-Combo seem to be the last of the budget decks that can hang in any sense of the word with the big boys.  A diverse metagame is hell for budget decks which usually flourish as a metagame/hate deck choice.  Sui and Gobbo live because the core of their deck, disruption for Sui and burn for Gobbo, is inherently effective, though not as good as the theme of choice in Magic--card advantage.  As such Sui needs to stay true to its strength and avoid extraneous stuff.  I am a fan of control, but Sui, IMHO, should not try to play control.  It cannot win this game.

The idea of splashing in Sui is anathema to me, but I concede that the deck has some holes.  My problem is that the holes are not solved by any of the splashes I have seen thus far.  Red solely for good SB cards seems silly.  Especially in light of the deck these cards are brought into to beat.

The notion that MUD or Stax is this auto loss seems crazy.  I have played a fair share of games versus Stax and MUD and Null Rod main did its job.  With a Wretch on the board that is all but game.  Perhap my opponents have had awful hands or I have had God draws, but after a certain number of games (like 25-30) I tend to think that the flukes would have shown themselves as such.  

Specifics

The deck, to stay good, needs a very strong threat density.  Hyppie ain't cutting it.  I have temporarily swapped out Hyppie for Sarcomancy and I have been pleased with the choice.  Sarcomancy gives me the ability to race and this is crucial with this deck.  Sui is sui for a reason.  I have played about 300-400 games with this deck in the year plus since I have had it built and many are in my "record notebook."  None read W: Me: 20--Opp: 0.  

LD in the form of Sinkhole is much better than it is being given credit for here.  I have faced an inordinate number of Workshop decks recently and a second turn 'Hole turns a good hand thanks to Workshop into what would have been a guaranteed mulligan.  Furthermore, I think that Bazaar decks are on the rise, or will be soon, and as such Sinkhole is even better.  Against Hulk it thwarts good mana development.  The benefits are many.

Also there is the IRL factor.  In real life not every round is going to be a Tier 1 Type 1 deck.  In these match ups Sinkhole is SO good.  I know that one should prepare for the best, and justifying a card as good by showing its power in a crappy meta is begging the question.  However, in this context, I think that Sinkhole stands on its own, even without the crappy meta argument.  If we are being pragmatic, though, Sinkhole is a very strong card.

Discard...this is the core of the deck, but I am beginning to think that random discard ain't what it used to be.  I plan on trying out Therapy of Unmask very soon.  Hymn is the shotgun, but the truly effective killer never uses more than what is absolutely needed.  This deck works on some razor thin margins and opening the deck up to weaknesses because of a core card like Hymn is a problem.

Sideboarding has become very difficult for Sui.  With the diverse metagame the pressure on the SB is enormous.  I have found that Masticore is a clutch SB card.  If I were expecting an aggro meta I would probably swap the two Cores and Sol Ring for the three Rods I run standard.  Also, I have found Smother to be, not surprisingly, the BEST SB option Sui has.  It kills Tog, Welder, all of Sui's creatures and all of Gobbo's dudes except Seige Gang (which if it hits the table is game anyway).  With the aggro bent I have also found that PWB is good, but I think Smother makes them unnecessary.  I like Dystopia too, but that is a metagame choice (Hyperion and his progeny are in my meta...so).  Given the rise in importance of graveyards I think Crypt is something to consider, though I would much prefer 3 Planar Voids.  Also the results from Germany indicate that Chains would be good, though I don't have enough combo to warrant them as maindeck choices.  

So that is my three cents.  As a parting shot here are cards I have been thinking about testing:

Cursed Scroll:  Though slow I think that it may help with a creature meta, probably good in a sub par meta.

Sphere of Resistance:  As a SB option to pull a switcharoo.

Factories: For part of the above mentioned switcharoo SB.

Tsabo's Web:  To hose BoB and Library.  I really hate BoB.

Phyrexian Gate:  Is this even usable?  I don't know, but killing mass artifacts looks good to me.

Vendetta: Kills everything but Sui creatures.  Even fast Juggernauts.  The black STP but stinky.

Unmask:  The potential for 8 Duresses is just too good.  Maybe...

Thanks for the good thread.

[Os-Vegeta]

Now that the Mirrodin spoilers have been released, I'm really only finding two cards worth testing - Chalice of the Void and Chrome Mox.  

I like Chalice of the Void as a weapon that Sui can utilize, and when testing, I found that 4 MD Chalices was too many, so I dropped down to 3 MD and I've been happy with 3 MD and 1 in the SB.  

MUD going first scares me much more now than it did before.  All MUD has to do is drop a turn 1 Chalice for 1 (Chalice for 1 because your deadliest cards against MUD are all 1 cc) and if you can't drop Negator or Shade the next turn you practically scoop.  If Sui goes first, I would have very little worries since Sui does have multiple ways to get rid of or deal with Chalice of the Void (ie, turn 1 Duress, Therapy, Shaman...) but of course Sui won't always be going first.  

Besides being able to Chalice for 0, which will stop Long.dec completely and stop incoming Moxen while enabling you to slip in your Moxen beforehand, Chalice can easily hose the fast and now disruptive Lackey Sligh that you would see in the first couple rounds of a tournament.  Also, Chalice for 2 can cause Fish quite a bit of pain.  Against Hulk game 1, if you can disrupt Hulk's hand enough to drop a Chalice for 3, you have a bomb right there.  Granted, you will have to rely on a lot of acceleration to pull something like that off.  

This is where I decided to test Chrome Mox.  I would like to see more acceleration in the deck, as 4-5 Moxen, Lotus, and 4 Rituals can have a fruitful yield.  I found that 4 Chrome Mox is too much - I just drew it in multiples way too often.  I've dropped down to 3, and so far I haven't had any complaints.  Usually, there is an extra black card I can spare to get a quick boost off Chrome Mox.  I still need to do more testing before I draw any really conclusive results, but so far, so good, as I haven't experienced any mana issues as of yet.  Should I begin experiencing problems with the manabase, I'll probably try going +1 Swamp -1 Chrome Mox  

Because I want to use Chrome Mox in conjunction with Chalice of the Void, and since running Chalice allows me to run more artifact acceleration, I'm testing Chalice in the Null Rod slot.  Whether this is a good idea or not remains to be seen.
  
Since Chalice really does a nice amount of damage to Sligh and Fish, I'm freeing up the Masticore slot in the sideboard for a slot that will help defend me against a turn 1 Chalice for 1 from MUD.  So far, the only card I found I can turn to is Powder Keg.  In games 2 and 3, Chalice for 1 becomes quite harsh, as I'm siding in Welders for the Welder-Shaman lock.  Powder Keg is now my insurance against such a catastrophe.  

So, here's my current test deck list:  

      5 Swamp
      4 Bloodstained Mire
      4 Badlands
      1 Strip Mine
      4 Wasteland
      3 Chrome Mox
      1 Mox Jet
      1 Black Lotus
      4 Dark Ritual
      4 Nantuko Shade
      4 Phyrexian Negator
      4 Withered Wretch
      4 Gorilla Shaman
      4 Duress
      3 Hymn to Tourach
      4 Cabal Therapy
      1 Demonic Tutor
      1 Yawgmoth's Will
      1 Necropotence
      3 Chalice of the Void
  
    Sideboard:
     4 Goblin Welder
     4 Chains of Mephistopheles
     3 Blood Moon
     3 Powder Keg
     1 Chalice of the Void


(EDIT: Mistake about Chalice fixed)\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote Besides being able to Chalice for 0, which will...stop opposing Chalices from other decks

Not true. Chalice has a CMC of XX (where XX=what you payed to cast chalice), while it is on the stack. Thus, a chalice for zero can stop other chalices where x=0, but it can't stop a cahlice for 1, 2, 3, etc.

Of course, once the chalice hits play, it's no longer on the stack, so the X in the cc drops to 0, and Shaman can kill it for 1.

Perhaps if you're really concerned about chalice, you could throw in a few Kegs?

[bebe]

This is the direction i would take as well. My test deck has replaced Rods with Chalices also. I haven't proxied up the Chrome Moxes yet. The only difference between our lists is the Cabal Therapies. I have one less Wretch and one less Shaman, two Chains main decked, an aded Hymn and three Hyppies but no Therapies. I still think Hyppies belong.  I was not enamoured enough of the Therapies to keep them in the deck.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote Not true. Chalice has a CMC of XX (where XX=what you payed to cast chalice), while it is on the stack. Thus, a chalice for zero can stop other chalices where x=0, but it can't stop a cahlice for 1, 2, 3, etc.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Jacob.  I must have misread one of the conversations on Chalice.  

Quote Of course, once the chalice hits play, it's no longer on the stack, so the X in the cc drops to 0, and Shaman can kill it for 1.

Perhaps if you're really concerned about chalice, you could throw in a few Kegs?

Which is exactly why I've kept Shaman on my list (besides Wleder-Shaman lock and Shaman's ability to just blow up Moxen).  And for the kegs...

Quote  I'm freeing up the Masticore slot in the sideboard for a slot that will help defend me against a turn 1 Chalice for 1 from MUD. So far, the only card I found I can turn to is Powder Keg.  In games 2 and 3, Chalice for 1 becomes quite harsh, as I'm siding in Welders for the Welder-Shaman lock.  Powder Keg is now my insurance against such a catastrophe.  

Against MUD, I would conduct my sideboarding as such:  

-4 Negator (in anticipation of them siding in Fire/Ice)
-3 Hymn to Tourach
+4 Goblin Welder
+3 Powder Keg

Quote This is the direction i would take as well. My test deck has replaced Rods with Chalices also. I haven't proxied up the Chrome Moxes yet.

I would love to hear then what your results are when you do testing.  

Quote The only difference between our lists is the Cabal Therapies. I have one less Wretch and one less Shaman, two Chains main decked, an aded Hymn and three Hyppies but no Therapies. I still think Hyppies belong.  I was not enamoured enough of the Therapies to keep them in the deck.

I've really liked having Cabal Therapy, and I've enjoyed abusing it, especially against Hulk.  It's really been like Duress #5-12 to me, which is something Hyppie never was.  Maindecking two Chains is interesting, and it reminds me of a European build I saw.  How has that been working out for you?  Have there been many times where it was a dead draw?\n\n

[bebe]

I'm still testing the deck. The Chains help against Hulk, UrPhid, Fish and combo and with the Chalices make the deck very reliable. I side in three Planar Void for Hulk ( you have kegs ). I also side in Cores for aggro which along withthe Chalices is quite formidable. For reference:

3 Goblin Welder  
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Blood Moon
3 Null Rod
3 Planar Void
2 Masticore

I love the Chalices. They are my aggro answer. I no longer need four Cores and Contagion in the side. Io'm not overly concerned with Chalice as I think you can work around it if you vary your threats - another reason for Hyppies.
I have not tested enough to make any firm conclusions but you are correct. I have been working on the deck with the Germans ( I generally test all my builds with them).

So you find the Moxen useful? I might try two but it feels like a Lotus Petal or Mox Diamond to me - useful only early - not that in and of itself it is necessarily a bad thing to have it useful early. I will test a couple and get back on it.

BTW, I think you need Demonic Consultation in the deck. I know the debate on the card. i have won too many games with it to leave it out.

[wuaffiliate]

i came to the same conclusion about chalice, i dont run core or contagion anymore. its just an auto win vs so many aggro decks.

the main problem with chalice is that MUD is now the best deck in the format. and thats never good for sui, even with a red splash the match is going to get worse.

i also fear that restricting workshop will do little to slow MUD down with other lands like City of Traitors(a 2-3 of already) and Ancient Tomb. also if the kill switches from karn to another mirrodin artifact, this can be very, very bad news for sui.

rods need to be in the deck somewhere, i run 3 rods main and SB 4 chalice. rods are needed to take out the top decks, you have zero chance at winning vs MUD with no rods. chalice compliments rod its not a replacement!