BR Sui Article Up For Review

[Os-Vegeta]

***LAST REVISED 8-18-03***


Shoot to Thrill, Play to Kill[/u]
An Attempt to Splash Red into Suicide
By Dave “Os-Vegeta” Boruta

     Gen Con brought us a view of what the current powered, competitive Vintage metagame has become.  There is no lack of viable decks, and no one deck is dominating the metagame like Gro-A-Tog did.  There has been much talk on The Mana Drain about Suicide Black being a viable choice for this metagame, and the argument still hasn’t been truly decided as to whether or not it can become anything more than a “decent” deck to play.  I see Sui running into quite a few problems, however, against too many decks in this new metagame.  These include $T4KS, Rector Trix, Rector Tendrils, Vengeur Masque, Hulk, and, to a lesser extent now because it is appearing to be dying out, TnT.  That’s quite a few decks, isn’t it?  In fact, this list includes the decks that made the Top 4 at Gen Con, which really says something.   There has been talk for a while now that Sui really has had no problem with Hulk.  Having played against Hulk with Joel “Nimrod” Gerardo Rojo García, I am led to believe the opposite.  Hulk has Brainstorm, making Sui’s hand disruption less effective, which in turn means that Hulk can still pull off Intuition – AK – Tog, or something along the lines of that.  Even then, there’s Deep Analysis.  Hulk, in the hands of a skilled player, is no easy match up for Sui, and this must be taken into consideration.

Getting From There to Here

     A while back, Steve “Smmenen” Menendian said that there was no reason for the mono-colored decks to not splash a secondary color for support, and I totally agreed with what he said.  That was a month ago, and ever since then I have been watching the metagame shift toward control and combo being the more common occurrences and the only truly good aggro choice becoming Fish.  At the time, I looked at Mike “Mykeatog” Broughton’s “Bloody Suicide” build, but it really seemed to be lacking.  The deck’s construction and sideboard really seemed to be lacking for the direction the metagame was headed.  Rack and Ruin really just didn’t seem to be the answer Sui was looking for, as not only was it 2R, but it wasn’t even a permanent solution.  It didn’t disrupt $T4KS enough, and Mark “MarkPharaoh” Sadowski, who was also interested in a red splash in Sui, found that the more aggressive artifact decks, like TnT and the now emerging Stacker III just rebounded too easily.  For reference, this is the deck that was used in testing:

Bloody Suicide Redux by Dave “Os-Vegeta” Boruta    
2003 Test Deck
       8 Swamp
       4 Bloodstained Mire
       4 Badlands
       1 Strip Mine
       4 Wasteland
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Black Lotus
       4 Dark Ritual
       4 Nantuko Shade
       4 Phyrexian Negator
       4 Hypnotic Specter
       4 Unearth
       4 Duress
       4 Hymn to Tourach
       4 Sinkhole
       1 Demonic Tutor
       1 Yawgmoth's Will
       3 Powder Keg

     Sideboard:
      3 Red Elemental Blast
      3 Blood Moon
      4 Rack and Ruin
      3 Masticore
      2 Cabal Therapy

     Soon after I gave up on the idea, the concept of a BR Sui build came up in my discussion with Bryce “Kl0wn” Reynolds about his Ninja Mask.  He gave me the idea that eventually started the wheels for my current version of BR Sui.  He told me that in his “Evil TnT” build, he would use a combination of Gorilla Shaman, Goblin Welder, and Withered Wretch to combat $T4KS and opposing TnT builds.  The reasoning behind this was that Gorilla Shaman would put Moxen in the graveyard, Goblin Welder would bury the threat, switching the Mox for the threat, and then the Wretch would remove the threat from the game.  Afterwards, Gorilla Shaman would take out the Mox once more.  Though this was really a 3-piece combo to take out Workshop decks, it was much, much more appealing than anything else I had ever tried in the past.  Gorilla Shaman was already a perfect main deck choice for the new metagame, so that meant I only needed to find room for Goblin Welder and Withered Wretch in the sideboard.  
     To fit Gorilla Shamans in the main deck, I had to cut Unearth, which at the time was a painful decision, but one I later found to be one I was quite happy with.  I ended up not having enough room in the sideboard, as at the time I wished to fit in both Red Elemental Blast and Cabal Therapy along with Withered Wretch, Goblin Welder, and Blood Moon.  On top of that, I still wanted to include Masticore in the deck.  I ended up questioning the point of having both Gorilla Shaman and Powder Keg in the deck, as Keg really does the same job Shaman does – blow up Moxen.  Keg does take out weenies, too, but seeing the decline in Sligh’s status in the metagame, and the undeniable fact that Masticore has always been something that gives weenie decks trouble, I saw no reason to keep the Keg.  Masticore took Powder Keg’s spot in the main deck, giving me room in the sideboard for everything else.
     Adam “ShadowLotus” Levison immediately took an interest in the deck, and since I was going on vacation for a week, he did some testing in my absence.  He found that post-board there was a significant match up improvement vs. $T4KS, so much improvement that it had turned into a very winnable match up.  A first turn Duress sets up some early defense, and a Shaman and Welder dropping in the following turns can just seal the game for you.  Against TnT, the problem was usually finding the Wretch, and in the meantime making sure that TnT can’t just go Survival – Triskelion/Masticore – WIN.  Triskelion would really screw things up if it made an early appearance.  Gorilla Shaman can slow that from happening by blowing up Moxen, but it can’t completely prevent Trisk/Masticore from hitting the board.  Masticore is a little easier to deal with once on the board if you can keep it from gunning until you get a Welder and hopefully soon after, Wretch.  Nonetheless, this was still a big improvement, as it took the TnT match up from losing to winnable.  Even the control match up has been improved with the addition of Shaman, as ShadowLotus tested this against Keeper and found that Shaman added even more pressure to what Sui already places on the deck.  This is the build we tested then, and we were happy with it, but there were still just some bugs that needed to be worked out:

       7 Swamp
       4 Bloodstained Mire
       4 Badlands
       1 Strip Mine
       4 Wasteland
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Sol Ring
       4 Dark Ritual
       4 Nantuko Shade
       4 Phyrexian Negator
       4 Hypnotic Specter
       4 Gorilla Shaman
       4 Duress
       4 Hymn to Tourach
       4 Sinkhole
       1 Demonic Tutor
       1 Yawgmoth's Will
       3 Masticore
    
     Sideboard:
      4 Goblin Welder
      3 Withered Wretch
      2-3 Red Elemental Blast
      3 Blood Moon
      2-3 Cabal Therapy

      A short time later, I spoke with Mykeatog about this build, and after explaining some card choices in the sideboard, he did say that this was the best BR build he had seen yet.  We exchanged ideas, in which he left the conversation wanting to test Withered Wretch main deck in his mono-black Sui build and I was considering running Unmask as a sideboard option instead of Cabal Therapy.  I ended up choosing Therapy over Unmask for a couple reasons.  The first reason is that this deck has no card drawing, so it can’t handle the card disadvantage Unmask gives it.  The second reason is that Cabal Therapy can not only nab multiple cards, but its flashback ability is something to consider now, especially since the deck has upped its creature count.  
     Soon after that, a thread in the Vintage forum sparked my interest, as it questioned if Hypnotic Specter was still worth running in Sui.  It wasn’t until Matt the Great posted his view on the subject that I began to look at how often I was siding out Hypnotic Specter.  I found that I was siding it out too often, and I also found that I wanted Null Rod more than ever in the sideboard with the number of Vengeur Masque players on the rise, along with the fact that Tendrils/Burning Academy is appearing.  I also found that I wanted a fourth Withered Wretch, and I found it to be a good replacement for Hypnotic Specter, as it can be gold against quite a few decks.  Withered Wretch has become an excellent weapon, and it may be time for Hypnotic Specter to step down for now, at least in a BR build.  This opened up room for me in the sideboard for 4 Null Rods, as by then I decided to cut REB completely and up my Therapy count.
     With some input from other members of TMD, including JP Meyer, and David “Webster” Ochoa, I found that after even just a small amount of testing it in the main with my teammates, Chris “Rogue” Graham and Joel “Nimrod” Gerardo Rojo García, Cabal Therapy is a much stronger main deck choice than Sinkhole.  In addition to this, after some input on Team Showercap’s results by Craig “Milton” Olson, I decided to have both Masticore and Blood Moon in the sideboard, as Null Rod is not only less conditional, but the closer one gets to the upper tables at a tournament, the better it becomes as a main deck choice. It can even be useful in the lower tables, as there is one deck in particular that is becoming more of a common appearance in the lower tables – Madness.  Initially, I had written it off, but now at a second glance I’m finding that even two of my own teammates have been working on it quite a bit.  Since Sinkhole was cut from the main, it won’t find much of a place in the sideboard, as it loses its power as a sideboard card.  To take up the slot that Cabal Therapy left, Chains of Mephistopheles will take its place.  It is much more of a bomb than Sinkhole in so many match ups.  Since I am running Null Rod in the main, this prevents Sol Ring from being overly useful, so I replaced it with the eighth Swamp.    

     So, I now have the final version ready for presentation:  

Shoot to Thrill, by Dave “Os-Vegeta” Boruta
            
       8 Swamp
       4 Bloodstained Mire
       4 Badlands
       1 Strip Mine
       4 Wasteland
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Black Lotus
       4 Dark Ritual
       4 Nantuko Shade
       4 Phyrexian Negator
       4 Withered Wretch
       4 Gorilla Shaman
       4 Duress
       3 Hymn to Tourach
       4 Cabal Therapy
       1 Demonic Tutor
       1 Yawgmoth's Will
       1 Necropotence
       3 Null Rod
    
     Sideboard:
      4 Goblin Welder
      4  Chains of Mephistopheles
      3 Blood Moon
      3 Masticore
      1 Null Rod    
   

Match up Analysis and Sideboarding
    
$T4KS/MUD:[/i]  These decks are the very reason you’re running Goblin Welder in the sideboard to combo with Withered Wretch and Gorilla Shaman.  This combo should be what you need to handle these decks.  Considering that Fire/Ice can or will be sided in against you, Negator goes.  
- 4 Phyrexian Negator
+ 4 Goblin Welder

Vengeur Masque:[/i]  This match up is by no means easy.  It will be everything I would expect from Team Paragons – one Hell of a deck.  You’ll need the disruptive combination of Blood Moon and Null Rod to pull off a win, as the deck doesn’t run a full set of Moxen that Shaman – Welder would need to gain the advantage.  Birds of Paradise and Wall of Roots can become quite a nuisance, as they are the deck’s other mana sources.  Cabal Therapy can be a Godsend, as you are really concerned about Mask, Survival, and Shapeshifter resolving.  
- 4 Gorilla Shaman
+ 3 Blood Moon  
+ 1 Null Rod
  
Hulk:[/i]  Hulk:  This is yet another match up that won’t ever be easy thanks to Team Paragons.  Cabal Therapy is one of your best weapons in this match up, and Withered Wretch is a huge help as well.  Blood Moon and Chains of Mephistopheles coming in from the sideboard are your bombs.  
-1 Phyrexian Negator
- 3 Hymn to Tourach
- 3 Null Rod
+4 Chains of Mephistopheles
+3 Blood Moon

Rector Trix & Rector Tendrils:[/i]  This match up shouldn’t be bad for you since a resolved Withered Wretch can hamper their plans.  Blood Moon and Chains of Mephistopheles coming in from the sideboard are the bombs you need to really finish the job.
- 4 Gorilla Shaman
- 3 Hymn to Tourach
+ 3 Blood Moon
+ 4 Chains of Mephistopheles

Tendrils Academy:[/i]   A bit like the Rector Tendrils match up, but I presume it to be a bit faster.  Since this is an Academy build, not a Rector-based build, Withered Wretch loses some of its power.  Since you don’t have counter backup like Keeper does, you’ll be wanting Null Rod or a bomb more than Gorilla Shaman.  Chains of Mephistopheles, and the extra Null Rod from the side are the bombs you need.  
- 1 Gorilla Shaman
- 4 Withered Wretch
+ 4 Chains of Mephistopheles
+ 1 Null Rod

Fish:[/i]  This match up won’t be too easy, but if you play it right it won’t be too hard.  You need to keep the pressure on and keep the game in your favor.  Masticore gives this deck headaches, and Chains of Mephistopheles will just cause havoc.      
- 1 Gorilla Shaman
- 3 Hymn to Tourach
- 3 Null Rod
+ 4 Chains of Mephistopheles
+ 3 Masticore

Keeper & Combo-Keeper:[/i]  You shouldn’t have a whole lot of problems with this match up.  With 11 discard, of which 8 is focused, you will give them problems.  Combo-Keeper can be quite dangerous, though, if it goes Burning Wish – Balance.  Blood Moon is a great bomb.    
- 3 Null Rod
+ 3 Blood Moon

TnT & Stacker III:[/i]  : TnT will be the tougher of these two match ups for you because of Survival tricks, but if trends keep going the way they are, Stacker III will most likely be the more popular choice.  Like the $T4KS match up, you want Goblin Welder to come in from the sideboard.  
- 4 Phyrexian Negator
+ 4 Goblin Welder

Madness:[/i]  This match up can be very interesting.  You have the weapons you need in your main deck to win – Null Rod and Withered Wretch.  This deck can rely a lot on its artifact acceleration in the first two turns, especially Lion’s Eye Diamond.  Of course, you have Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman to make sure they don’t get that boost.    
- 1 Phyrexian Negator
+ 1 Null Rod   

Sligh:[/i]  Sligh is on a decline right now, and it seems that those who are still playing Sligh are switching over to Red Stompy in hopes of performing better against Hulk and combo.  That’s all fine by me.  You have a higher creature count now, you still have discard, and you have a hungry Masticore waiting to come in from the sideboard.
-3 Null Rod
+ 3 Masticore

Sui:[/i]  Ah, the Sui “mirror.”  Masticore can be a thorn in Sui’s side at times (when played at the right time – I do not recommend playing this right away.  If anything, it could be a creature to seal your win.)  In any case, you will have more creatures than them, which means more that they have to deal with.  Be careful, though, as you cannot underestimate this deck’s ability to take the game from you with well-timed disruption or an early Ritual-Duress-Hymn/Sinkhole/Shade.  One plus now, though, is that some Sui players are running less creatures while trying to take advantage of Unearth.  Well, your Wretches will make sure that’s useless.    
- 3 Null Rod
+ 3 Masticore


Void:[/i]  Since this is a deck that I have seen more of in tournament listings, and since this is a deck I worked with for a while, I should comment on it.  BG Void can give you problems, especially with Deed.  Blood Moon is your best friend in this match up.  
-3 Null Rod
+ 3 Blood Moon

Alternate Sideboard Options

     These alternate options for the sideboard are ones that I recommend looking at.  Every metagame is different, as are the styles of each player.  

Fire/Ice:[/i] Fire could be an alternative sideboard choice to bring in against weenie aggro and Workshop decks.  This could even be a nice way to deal with those annoying Birds of Paradise and Quirion Rangers that Vengeur Masque runs.  This is one I would run in my reserve sideboard.  

Powder Keg:[/i] Though I feel it’s not the best choice anymore, it is still a good sweeper card against weenie aggro.  
   
Plaguebearer:[/i] This is yet another option against weenie aggro, especially Fish, and it is also quite useful against Mask decks.  Though it is the Gorilla Shaman for creatures, the amount of mana needed to use it and the fact it is only a 1/1 may make it inferior to Masticore.  Its advantage, though, is that it is a very useful weapon against Vengeur Masque.    

Red Elemental Blast:[/i]  This card is particularly good against Fish, BBS, and it can be even nice against Hulk should Psychatog sneak through.  If you see a lot of Fish in your metagame, this is the card to board.  It’s a good sideboard option, though I have found I want Blood Moon in more match ups.

Why Not Just Splash Green?

     Green offers Pernicious Deed and Naturalize, primarily, with Choke coming in as another sideboard option (though it’s one I have never preferred).  When placed in Void, it works out fine because Void really is a more controlling deck to begin with.  Void also has Nether Void to seal the game after a Deed, where Sui does not.  Splashing green in Sui for Deed and Naturalize will turn it into what PT Funk is becoming, and that is not the direction Sui wants to go.  Sui is an aggressive deck at heart that relies more on disrupting the opponent and being the “knife-wielding maniac” than being reactive and removing the threats after they’re already out with something like Naturalize or Deed.
     Arguments for splashing green include that Naturalize is needed to remove enchantments.  Well, the enchantments I see right now are Yawgmoth’s Bargain and Future Sight.  Bargain is usually fetched through Rector, so why not just shut down Rector?  Also, once Bargain is in play, you’ve already lost.
     The red splash is essentially for two of the best metagame weapons right now – Gorilla Shaman and Blood Moon.  In addition to this, it is gaining Goblin Welder to play against $T4KS, Stacker III, and TnT.  Thus, in turn, the red splash is making Sui even more disruptive than it was before, as it now can disrupt manabases more efficiently and it has turned a few losing match ups into very winnable ones.

Tying it All Together

     After a nice amount of thought, discussion, and testing, I’m finally satisfied with this BR Sui variant.  I truly believe it has a good shot in this metagame, and I’m hoping to see this deck have success soon.  By the way, if you must know why I named this deck “Shoot to Thrill”, I have a habit of naming my decks after AC/DC songs, and also with all the “shooters” in the deck like Masticore, Withered Wretch, and Gorilla Shaman, which all target different aspects of the opponent’s game, I thought “Shoot to Thrill” would be a fitting name.  =P



Props to: Adam “ShadowLotus” Levison, Joel “Nimrod” Gerardo Rojo García, Chris “Rogue” Graham, and Mark “MarkPharaoh” Sadowski for testing and direct influence.  JP Meyer, David “Webster” Ochoa, Mike “Mykeatog” Broughton, and Craig “Milton” Olsen for important input.  Bryce “Kl0wn” Reynolds for giving me the idea for the deck.\n\n

[Fever]

Dude, you know i like you, so dont take this personally:

Cutting Hypnotic Specter is insanely wrong. You found you were siding it out too often?? What the hell? I played Suicide almost exclusively for over a year and i cant remember siding it out, ever. I know the deal, some people will continue to play Hippie, while others will continue to argue that he is past his prime. It just happens that the latter are horribly wrong. Im sorry, but i cant get past it and comment on anything else, perhaps later. I just cannot fathom how anyone who has played Sui for any period of time would cut one of the core cards from the deck.

[jpmeyer]

Looking at the sideboarding plans, why isn't Cabal Therapy in the maindeck to begin with?

[Os-Vegeta]

@ Fever

Quote Dude, you know i like you, so dont take this personally:

Since when do I take criticism personally?  
 

Quote Cutting Hypnotic Specter is insanely wrong. You found you were siding it out too often?? What the hell? I played Suicide almost exclusively for over a year and i cant remember siding it out, ever. I know the deal, some people will continue to play Hippie, while others will continue to argue that he is past his prime. It just happens that the latter are horribly wrong. Im sorry, but i cant get past it and comment on anything else, perhaps later. I just cannot fathom how anyone who has played Sui for any period of time would cut one of the core cards from the deck.

I thought the same thing for quite a while, and I initially said "It's bullshit!" when MarkPharaoh asked me what my thoughts on the situation were.  Yes, I was siding Hyppie out too often, and I didn't realize it and what I was siding in until I read through the thread in the Vintage forum.  Just about every time I sided Hyppie out, it was for Withered Wretch.  I needed/wanted Shade and Negator to stay, and Shaman was needed in the same match ups as Withered Wretch.  So, I thought to myself, "If I'm siding out Hyppie for Wretch so often, maybe I should run it in the main deck."  I took a look at all the game ones that the running of Wretch main deck improved, especially the match ups against Rector decks and Stax.  That's at least three game one match ups improved there.

@ JP

Quote Looking at the sideboarding plans, why isn't Cabal Therapy in the maindeck to begin with?

I really thought about maindecking Cabal Therapy for a while, but then I thought "What do I cut?"  The closest thing that came to being cutable was Sinkhole, and its ability to randomly jump on decks game one is just too appealing.  I've seen some Sui players cut Hymn to Tourach for Cabal Therapy, but I'm doubting that is a good decision.  Unless you're seeing something I'm not, I don't see how Cabal Therapy could be fit into the main deck.

[Milton]

You came to very simmilar conclusions that we (team showercap) did at GenCon.  One of our guys (Herby) played Suicide and ran a red splash to run Bloodmoon and Rack and Ruin in the board.  He placed 25th, which was good for about a half a box of packs.  His deck was  simmiar to yours, but there were some differences.

First, we thought about the maindeck Shaman, but after careful consideration we found that four maindeck Null Rods were necessary for the GenCon metagame.  We talked to Mykeatog for a while and bounced some ideas off him.  Our conclusions were that Null Rod was a far superior call to Shaman, understanding that they don't necessairly accomplish the same thing, but are simmilar enough in what they do to know that you probabally wouldn't run both maindeck.  After our GenCon experience I would think that Null Rod is such a house in most metagames right now that it would be a maindeck staple, but I understand why you are running Gorilla Shaman.  I would seriously consider swapping them out for Null Rod, however.  This wouldn't allow you to run Masticore, of course, but it could be swapped out and would make sideboarding a little easier.

We liked Unearth.  Hell, it cycles!  We also felt that Hypnotic Specter wasn't very powerful in a Brainstorm heavy environment, so we went to Wretch as well.  Also, we cut Sinkhole, deciding that Bloodmoon in the board, the Wastes and Strip, along with Null Rod, would have to do enough to control the opponents mana.

We also decided that Skittering Skirge puts an opponent on more of a clock than the Hyppie, so we threw in a few Skirges.  Finally, Wretch was good, but we felt that four was overkill.

Bloodmoon in the maindeck seems to be way more situational than Null Rod, by the way.  Also, running the Shaman

Also, Necropotence won Herby a few games so I am curious as to why you decided to not include it in your final verson.

Anyway, you can read about Herby's experiences with his deck and our decisions here: http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=9111

I liked what you wrote and, even though I disagree with some of your conclusions it's nice to see a little innovation.

[wuaffiliate]

Quote (Fever @ Aug. 11 2003,16:57)I played Suicide almost exclusively for over a year and i cant remember siding it out, ever.

hippy goes out alot vs combo and some aggro.

i like the build alot  i have welder in the side of sligh for the  same reason minus the wretch. its killer . i have to agree that this is a great R splash build but has a real crappy name . Bloodmoon is THE reason to splash, but SB is where they belong imo.

also you will win less matches vs hulk, RnDGHBaB, and rector-combo without chains, they are key.

if i wasnt so happy with mono-b sui i would splash .\n\n

[Os-Vegeta]

@ Milton

It's good to see that Team Showercap is coming to similar conclusions.  

Quote After our GenCon experience I would think that Null Rod is such a house in most metagames right now that it would be a maindeck staple, but I understand why you are running Gorilla Shaman.  I would seriously consider swapping them out for Null Rod, however.  This wouldn't allow you to run Masticore, of course, but it could be swapped out and would make sideboarding a little easier.

I see your reasoning with running Null Rod over Shaman, but what's really making the difference here is how our builds deal with Workshop decks.  As I described in the article, I gave Rack and Ruin a try, but at times it just wasn't enough to keep decks like Stax down.  Still, it is an option to run Null Rod in the maindeck.  The problem it has, though, is that you lose 4 creatures in the process.  

Quote We liked Unearth.  Hell, it cycles!  We also felt that Hypnotic Specter wasn't very powerful in a Brainstorm heavy environment, so we went to Wretch as well.  Also, we cut Sinkhole, deciding that Bloodmoon in the board, the Wastes and Strip, along with Null Rod, would have to do enough to control the opponents mana.

Unearth is a great card, and I wish I had been able to fit it in my build.  Limitations due to the way I decided to go with the deck really kept me from doing much to fit the card in.  It could be run in the Blood Moon/Masticore slot, but then what would need even more consideration would be the sideboard.  

Quote We also decided that Skittering Skirge puts an opponent on more of a clock than the Hyppie, so we threw in a few Skirges.  Finally, Wretch was good, but we felt that four was overkill.

ShadowLotus and I found in our testing that in a few match ups we wanted to be drawing Withered Wretch more often, especially against Rector Decks.  I already covered how much Wretch was desired in the TnT match up, but seeing how TnT is slowly fading away the argument for that match up will fade with it.

Quote Bloodmoon in the maindeck seems to be way more situational than Null Rod, by the way.

Blood Moon can also just cinch games for you against a good number of decks as well (at least five).  Depending on what your metagame expectations are, though, what you say could be true.  This is the very reason why I made the sidenote about that slot pertaining to Blood Moon/Masticore.  It's really a big metagame call.  

Quote Also, Necropotence won Herby a few games so I am curious as to why you decided to not include it in your final verson.

Necropotence is a good card, but my reasoning for not running it, which I did cover in the Alternate Sideboarding section of my article, was because I wanted redundancy first.  Since your team has found it's happy with 3 Wretches, Necro could easily take that extra slot left open if you so desire.  Personally, I don't feel it's a must-have.  

@ Wuaffiliate

Quote i like the build alot  i have welder in the side of sligh for the  same reason minus the wretch. its killer . i have to agree that this is a great R splash build

Thanks for the kind words.  

Quote but has a real crappy name .

Gah, you sound like MarkPharaoh.  He thought the same thing about the name!  What do you want me to name it then, Back in Black?    

Quote Bloodmoon is THE reason to splash, but SB is where they belong imo.

Blood Moon is not the only reason for the red splash.  Just as important are Shaman and Welder for the Stax/Workshop match up.  You could be right about running Blood Moon in the side.  It's a big metagame call; nothing's written in stone there.  I'm hoping I was able to convey that in the side note I made on the Blood Moon / Masticore slot.  

Quote also you will win less matches vs hulk, RnDGHBaB, and rector-combo without chains, they are key.

Chains is a fantastic card, and it's one card that I would definitely run in my sideboard or at least in my reserve sideboard when going to a tournament in a powered metagame.  Maybe I didn't place enough emphasis on it in my Alternate Sideboarding section.\n\n

[MarkPharaoh]

Quote Gah, you sound like MarkPharaoh.  He thought the same thing about the name!  What do you want me to name it then, Back in Black?

hehe, all I have to do now is convince you to put in that Necro  and i'll be happy .  

Null Rod vs Mox Monkey: this is highly metagame dependent.  Rod can simply be a house against any combo deck out there.  With my Fish i've had combo concede Turn2 after I resolved a Null Rod.  Rod also can also shut down part of Vengeur, and since this deck is gaining popularity, Dave might have to reconsider the Shaman.  Although Rod can wreck combo straight up, there are a lot of non combo decks out there being played.  Against Keeper and other forms of control, i'd rather run the Monkey.. Both the Monkey and Rod can be dealt with, but the Monkey destroys things while the Rod only stops them until they find that Pulse, Naturalize, whatever.

Also, against aggro and the mirror, i'd rather have the Monkey.  He can chump Pups and Cadets and make the Sligh player waste a Bolt on it.  In the mirror (lets say a Rod version)  You have more creatures then them because of the Monkey which can put the game in your favor.\n\n

[wuaffiliate]

what about "Br Suicide Black"   

also i dont like the therapys, yeah they would be ok in the combo match, but chains are just better in more matches. all combo and all control will basically be stuck to tutors and topdecking to get a solution. while you win the game.

ring just doesnt do it for me either, the mana curve have barely changed in the build im posting so i find no reason to run the situational mana producer, swamp is better imo. thats what ive been running for a while now minus the welders which i added to test because of this thread .

shaman is nice, but i like game 1 vs mask alot.

its basically my build plus good post SB gear.

NAME: BR Suicide Black    
8 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Withered Wretch
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Null Rod
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Sideboard:
SB:  4 Goblin Welder < mono-b its 4 kegs
SB:  3 Blood Moon < mono-b its 3 edicts/contagions
SB:  3 Masticore
SB:  3 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB:  1 Null Rod < mono-b always changes from edict/contagion/rod

[Webster]

I'd just like to echo what JP said about sideboarding options.

It seems like you side in the cabal therapy and the sinkhole out for the majority of the matchups that you addressed (all with the exception of rector trix/agony).

I know that a well timed sinkhole can just snag the game. However, I think it is time to re-evaluate whether or not sinkhole still belongs in the deck.

Many people dismissed the option of cutting hypnotic specter from suicide because it was one of the staple creatures in that deck archetype for so long. I don't see why sinkhole is exempt from that chopping block as well. You could even move the sinkholes to the board to side vs. rector trix/agony and other assorted nonsense.

[wuaffiliate]

im actually playing with no sink holes right now for 3 unearth and a 4th hippy as a test again. hippy is more important than sinkhole is.

[Os-Vegeta]

I've been working on revising the article like a madman, which is why I haven't replied to any other comments yet.  

1) Cabal Therapy just wants to be main deck, and I did a little testing with it MD and I'm loving it.  
2) Sinkhole got cut completely.  It's not in the sideboard, because Chains of Mephistopheles is just a bomb against any deck that uses blue card drawing or tries to abuse Yawgmoth's Bargain.  
3) MarkPharaoh got his wish - I'm including Necro in the main.  With so much discard now, I can afford to cut a Hymn to bring in Necropotence.  
4) Null Rod is in the main, as Blood Moon and Masticore are just both too conditional to be in the main, yet they are both still bombs against their respective side-ins.  
5) Just a big thanks right now to Nimrod and Rogue for doing some testing with me and listening to my mindless droning on and on about sideboard theory and giving me sound advice in return.  

So, by Monday at the latest I'll have all the revisions to the article up.  A lot of changes have been made, and I'm thanking everyone who's contributed so far.  

In the meantime, here is my current list:

    8 Swamp
       4 Bloodstained Mire
       4 Badlands
       1 Strip Mine
       4 Wasteland
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Black Lotus
       4 Dark Ritual
       4 Nantuko Shade
       4 Phyrexian Negator
       4 Withered Wretch
       4 Gorilla Shaman
       4 Duress
       3 Hymn to Tourach
       4 Cabal Therapy
       1 Demonic Tutor
       1 Yawgmoth's Will
       1 Necropotence
       3 Null Rod
    
     Sideboard:
      4 Goblin Welder
      4  Chains of Mephistopheles
      3 Blood Moon
      3 Masticore
      1 Null Rod\n\n

[Fever]

Dont you find 4 Shamans and 3 Rods maindeck to be a tad redundant?

[MarkPharaoh]

I'd rather cut the 4th Therapy then the 4th Hymn.  I really don't like casting Therapy blind, espically turn1, but Hymn always hits if they don't have the counter, Therapy doesn't.  It has good synergy with Duress, but Ritual, Duress, Hymn is just as crazy, and Brainstorm effects can mess around with your Therapies.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote Dont you find 4 Shamans and 3 Rods maindeck to be a tad redundant?

Not to the extent you may be thinking.  It is a bit redundant, but this is really the way to go now.  Gorilla Shaman fills the extra creature slots that you want against aggro, and it's the extra disruption and a threat against control and combo that I'm looking for.  Even if you find it's not really needed at a particular moment in a match, it will always be extra Therapy fodder, meaning it still has use.  Of course, I never intended it to be simply Therapy Fodder.  If that was the case, I'd be running Unearth in its place.  Really, to pull off a win against control, especially Hulk, and against Workshop decks, you want Gorilla Shaman in the main so you have a chance game 1.  

Quote I'd rather cut the 4th Therapy then the 4th Hymn.  I really don't like casting Therapy blind, espically turn1, but Hymn always hits if they don't have the counter, Therapy doesn't.  It has good synergy with Duress, but Ritual, Duress, Hymn is just as crazy, and Brainstorm effects can mess around with your Therapies.

Therapy really is an amazing card.  It not only has good synergy with Duress, but it is also at least Duress #5-12, maybe even better in some cases as it can remove as many cards as Hymn, but at less of a mana cost and more pinpointed.  

You have a point with Therapy not hitting at times, but I find it hits more often than not, especially if you have good knowledge of the core cards of the deck your opponent is playing and in the decks in your metagame in general.  The decks in the metagame are becoming more redundant, meaning there are not only more Therapy targets, but it is becoming it bit easier to predict what the opponent's hand will look like.  

Hymn to Tourach is a good card, but Cabal Therapy really is superior to it in the current metagame, just like Duress.  Hymn to Tourach's casting cost also makes it a little lower on the proverbial totem pole than Cabal Therapy, as more can be done with that extra one black mana freed up - pump Shade, cast another BB spell, or even cast Duress or a second Therapy.  

As for Brainstorm, it screws up your discard regardless, as you know that the card(s) you want to be discarded won't be hit.

[Rogue]

Therapy vs. Hymn: I have to disagree with you oz. See, brainstorm is going to make sure that you get 0 cards, or at least a bad one. Hymn will always get 2 cards, even if they aren't necessarilly the ones you want. Also, since you side hymn out a good bit anyways, you don't have to worry about removing the 1 therapy that happens to overlap into that excess discard pool.
That said, therapy is cheaper and will almost certainly hit the card you want, even if the first time misses. Therefore, it really depends on how much combo you see, since thats the matchup where hitting the particular card-really-matters.
I totally agree on the shaman/rod thing. You need 16 critters with therapy, and after shaman outlives its uses(like when a rod drops), you can sac it for flashback. Much better than unearth, and also important for sideboard welders.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote Therapy vs. Hymn: I have to disagree with you oz. See, brainstorm is going to make sure that you get 0 cards, or at least a bad one. Hymn will always get 2 cards, even if they aren't necessarilly the ones you want. Also, since you side hymn out a good bit anyways, you don't have to worry about removing the 1 therapy that happens to overlap into that excess discard pool.

I stand corrected.  Thanks for correcting me there, Rogue.    


The article is updated in the first post of the thread - List updated in article, all matchup analysis/sideboarding is updated, and Alternate Sideboarding has been updated.

[Matt The Great]

It's nice to see that everything I think about suicide is coming true. Sinkhole has been useless for almost ten months now (fetchlands); Therapy is amazing; Withered Wretch is amazing; and Ankh of Mishra is the only reason not to use four to six fetchlands in every deck in this format.

As far as the Hypnotic Specter debate: looking at the current crop of winning decks, Withered Wretch is just plain more disruptive than Specter is. It's also faster and cheaper, and therefore better. I would not run less than four Wretches maindeck for the foreseeable future. I definitely agree with the direction you're taking this deck.

[wuaffiliate]

sinkhole is far from useless, in fact if you think about it when they fetch and u kill the fetched land off they are down 2 land. making them even more land light.

wretch is amazing  ive loved him in sui for months im glad hes standard now.

[Matt The Great]

The land-thinning of a fetchland is incredibly negligible. There was an article on brainburst a couple weeks ago about this. And Sinkhole is useless like this:

1. Land destruction is tempo gained, or it is useless. Ergo, LD is best early.
2. A smart opponent will always lead with a first-turn fetchland, and they will not use it until your EOT unless they plan on casting Duress or similar, in which case the Sinkhole won't be there anyway.
3. This puts the usefulness of Sinkhole back a turn. Because you have to wait this extra half-turn, it effectively makes Sinkhole cost three mana. And that is terrible.

[wuaffiliate]

good points, but in actual play ive been able to mana screw fetch users with sinks and wastes quite abit.

therapy is deffinately a contender though

[T-Funk]

Getting straight to the point: I believe Therapy is better than Hymn.

Hymn:
Pros: Card advantage.  Greater possible hand disruption.  Good against random metagame.
Cons: Misdirect-able.  It is random.  No guarantee of opponent’s hand.  Opponent’s hand is still unknown.  2cc  

Therapy:
Pros: Not misdirect-able.  Guarantee.  Reveals opponents hand.  Flashback.  1cc.
Cons: No card advantage guaranteed.  Bad against random metagame.  

Basically my argument is based on one major point, Hymn is no guarantee while Therapy is a guarantee.  Here is an explanation why, using the 4 possible scenarios which occur to illustrate my point.

If Hymn resolves your opponent loses two random cards.  This may or may not affect their game plan.  In some instances it may even promote their strategy.  Why maindeck such a random card?  Sure hymn promotes the basic principle of card advantage, but what good is that if your opponent is still holding the card(s) they need?  I would much rather be able to guarantee that my opponent is not holding or no longer holding the card in their deck that I fear most.    

If Therapy resolves you have the opportunity to guarantee your opponent is not currently holding any number of copies of a particular card.  I think that assurance is extremely under appreciated.  In the best-case scenario your opponent is forced to discard multiple copies of said card from his/her hand and can view every other card in their hand, thus giving you and advantage over them.  In the worst case, you are guaranteed that your opponent is not holding said card and are still able to view his/her hand.  

If Hymn does not resolve, there are the two basic possibilities: a pure counter, or misdirection.  I will not bother discussing a misdirected Hymn, since the negative effects are obvious.  If a Hymn is counter via a pure counter, it at least went one for one with your opponent’s hand.  If your Hymn was Forced, then card advantage was gained.  If it was Drained, then your opponent has 2 mana to work with (perfect for phids and other such spells).  If it was Mana Leaked, chances are you will not have 3 mana available.

If Therapy is countered, there is only one possibility since Misdirecting a Therapy will not cause you to discard.  In the case of a vanilla counter, Therapy goes one for one in card advantage.  If the counter was a FoW, then Therapy gains you card advatage.  If your Therapy was Drained, your opponent only has 1 colorless to work with next turn.  And in the case of Mana Leak, though unlikely, it is easier to pay the 3 with Therapy than with Hymn.

Now I know what you are saying, how is a countered Therapy any Guarantee?  You are right, technically it isn’t, but consider this:  A control player will only counter a Therapy if they have certain cards in hand, namely the cards you would name with Therapy.  No one would Force a Therapy if they were holding land, Brainstorm, Force, Mox, and maybe a wish.  They would general only counter if they were holding a very strong hand (walk, ancestral, YawgWin, and such), and hand with multiples (3 mana drains), or a hand with and answer to your threat or possible threat (swords, control magic, or disenchant).  So in essence a countered Therapy guarantees they do not want you to see their hand, but more importantly they fear that you will hit the card or cards they do not want you to hit.  

I thought a comparison between a shotgun and sniper rifle was a fairly accurate way to compare Hymn to Therapy.  Hymn is a shotgun blast, hitting anything and everything in its way, where as Therapy is a sniper rifle, a precise single shot aimed at one specific target.  

Comments and criticism encouraged.

Funk\n\n

[wuaffiliate]

i would think of it more like this:

hymn is a shotgun, therapy is a rifle with no scope . hymn will hit random shit in its way, while therapy will hit sometimes, and takes 2 shots to take a target down at times. while duress is the rifle with the scope .

threapy for me has always been too weak in sui, i love it in combo and reanimator because there are few things that can stop me and it doesnt matter if i name FoW turn 2 and there are none, because its the fact that i know they cant stop me that makes it great.

with hymn it takes baiting to be sucessfull, but im really never dissapointed with it.

on another note, im one of the converted. for the past little while ive been playing only Br sui and i love it. i main 3 shamen only in place of hippy and SB RnR and moons.\n\n

[Os-Vegeta]

The issue here isn't Hymn vs. Therapy.  They both have their strengths and weaknesses.  The issue here really is Sinkhole, as it's becoming much less effective than Hymn.  Hymn is still a good choice, and in my build it serves as a good game 1 choice and a placeholder for bombs brought in from the side.  

The reason I'm choosing to keep Hymn over Sinkhole is that while you CAN screw an opponent over with an early Sinkhole, a late game Sinkhole draw is nearly dead.  With Hulk, Keeper, and even decks like Vengeur Masque running Brainstorm, the usual amount of discard can prove to be insufficient.  With Cabal Therapy, Duress, and Hymn, you should have more consistent draws with hand disruption, overwhelming their Brainstorms and just having the ability to cripple thier hands while you disrupt their Moxen with Shaman and remove some Yawg-Will goodies and Psychatog fuel via Wretch.  

@ Wuaffiliate:

How is Rack and Ruin treating you?  Against MUD/Stax, I find it difficult to cast when first turn Spheres come out.  At least with Welder, though it is more dependant on having Gorilla Shamn out, it can be cast easier and will be a permanent pain in the ass for the Stax/MUD player unless they topdeck something along the lines of Fire/Ice.

[Matt The Great]

Wouldn't Goblin Vandal be better than Shaman?

1. If you've got the red to cast it, you've got red to use it.
2. Shaman is only good against Moxen, which Null Rod already takes care of, and is better at it, too, because you don't have to keep spending mana (this is especially important when both Wretch and Shade want as much mana spare as possible).
2. Shaman isn't even that great against mana artifacts, because smart combo deck pilots will just save them until they plan to use them (to fuel Storm). Thus, Shaman does very little in the way of actually disrupting combo decks.
3. Vandal can take out larger problematic artifacts like Smokestack, Tangle Wire, and Illusionary Mask that Shaman will probably never get to touch. Hell, it can even take out a tapped (and thus non-blocking) Dreadnaught or Metalworker, something Shaman can never do.

[the Luke]

I'm curious... what does Splashing red give you that splashing green does not? Also, take this from the perspective of being able to play all the relevent moxen/lotus.

Red has Blood Moon, yet Green has Choke. And Pernicious Deed is VERY good...

Rack and Ruin and Naturalize are also both comparable.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote Wouldn't Goblin Vandal be better than Shaman?

1. If you've got the red to cast it, you've got red to use it.
2. Shaman is only good against Moxen, which Null Rod already takes care of, and is better at it, too, because you don't have to keep spending mana (this is especially important when both Wretch and Shade want as much mana spare as possible).
2. Shaman isn't even that great against mana artifacts, because smart combo deck pilots will just save them until they plan to use them (to fuel Storm). Thus, Shaman does very little in the way of actually disrupting combo decks.
3. Vandal can take out larger problematic artifacts like Smokestack, Tangle Wire, and Illusionary Mask that Shaman will probably never get to touch. Hell, it can even take out a tapped (and thus non-blocking) Dreadnaught or Metalworker, something Shaman can never do.

2. That is true about combo, which is partly why Null Rod is maindecked.  All the other decks that run full or near-full sets of Moxen will put them out early for quick acceleration.  This is where Shaman can shine.  

3. Vandal takes out Sphere if it gets the chance - that's about it.  If Vandal is put into play early, a smart Stax/MUD player will just go Tangle Wire and tap Vandal for the time being.  Against Stax/MUD, Vandal is just better suited for a deck like Lackey Sligh where you know you're going to have masses of Goblins out to override Tangle Wire.    

Regarding Dreadnought - Depending on just how far you are in the game, Vandal may not even be able to connect.  Against Survival-Mask variants, which seem to be the more popular variants and look to be proving themselves to be the stronger ones, you can/will run into trouble relying on Vandal to take out a Nought.  Wall of Roots, Birds of Paradise, Quirion Ranger, they all just screw you over and Nought pushes through again for the win anyway.  

Quote I'm curious... what does Splashing red give you that splashing green does not? Also, take this from the perspective of being able to play all the relevent moxen/lotus.

Red has Blood Moon, yet Green has Choke. And Pernicious Deed is VERY good...

Rack and Ruin and Naturalize are also both comparable.

I believe I covered this all quite well in my "Why Not Just Splash Green?" section.  

Quote   Green offers Pernicious Deed and Naturalize, primarily, with Choke coming in as another sideboard option (though it’s one I have never preferred).  When placed in Void, it works out fine because Void really is a more controlling deck to begin with.  Void also has Nether Void to seal the game after a Deed, where Sui does not.  Splashing green in Sui for Deed and Naturalize will turn it into what PT Funk is becoming, and that is not the direction Sui wants to go.  Sui is an aggressive deck at heart that relies more on disrupting the opponent and being the “knife-wielding maniac” than being reactive and removing the threats after they’re already out with something like Naturalize or Deed.
    Arguments for splashing green include that Naturalize is needed to remove enchantments.  Well, the enchantments I see right now are Yawgmoth’s Bargain and Future Sight.  Bargain is usually fetched through Rector, so why not just shut down Rector?  Also, once Bargain is in play, you’ve already lost.
    The red splash is essentially for two of the best metagame weapons right now – Gorilla Shaman and Blood Moon.  In addition to this, it is gaining Goblin Welder to play against $T4KS, Stacker III, and TnT.  Thus, in turn, the red splash is making Sui even more disruptive than it was before, as it now can disrupt manabases more efficiently and it has turned a few losing match ups into very winnable ones.

I'd like to make note that I do not believe Rack and Ruin is in any way the best answer to Workshop decks.  Against any deck that's running Sphere of Resistance you will have a tough time casting Rack and Ruin.

I'd also like to make note that I have seen a nice number of posts in this thread that really aren't up to the quality I'm expecting. There have been a good number of good posts, and I won't point fingers, since I'm not being malicious about it, but I do ask that before posting you take into consideration the forum this thread is in, why this thread was posted in this forum, and the quality the EVF forum expects from all who post in it.\n\n

[Matt The Great]

You're right about the Dreadnaught sometimes being untouchable by Vandal, but you have to remember that it is ALWAYS untouchable by Shaman. This is definitely a plus for the "Vandal" side of the debate, and no fooling.

"This is where Shaman can shine"

The thing is, in those cases Null Rod would shine even better. Null Rod really makes Shaman obsolete.

"If Vandal is put into play early, a smart Stax/MUD player will just go Tangle Wire and tap Vandal for the time being."

Wouldn't they do that anyway? I fail to see how Shaman would be better in this case. A resolved Wire is rough going for you no matter what 1cc creature you're playing.

[walking dude]

some thoughts:

missing consult: the article build and a lot of the posted decks are missing demonic consultation. This is an oversight. It is a demonic tutor for 1 mana at instant speed. I know some people say they don’t like it because you can get really unlucky, but the odds of that happening are very rare compared to the odds of it getting you the card you need. The odds are in your favor, not playing this card in sui is always the result of using superstition rather than testing.  

Shaman: I’m not sure about this guy. I think 3 rods should be enough to handle most artifact stuff. I think you should probably replace him with hippie, although if you see round after round of artifact prison I could understand him. He’s not really all that good v combo so you don’t need him there. The point was made that against control null rod only hold moxes until they wish for pulse. But in reality, they will probably wish for stp, not pulse so that’s not a major concern.

LD stuff: From the therapy/hymn debate, a point that no one made so far is that hymn can hit land. If you’ve cut the sinks then you don’t have a full LD component anymore so this won’t matter, but if you have sinks than this is a major advantage for hymn.

I think the philosophical direction of weakening the LD for more discard is a mistake. Combo is all about null rod or chains so the 2 are close to equal here with therapy losing out against Burning Desire since the deck is so full of one ofs.
Against control LD is how you win. Brainstorm can protect the best cards from discard and losing an AK or DA to discard doesn’t really hurt. On the other hand, LD can choke off a color they need to stop you (like white for stp balance) or keep them below their critical mana number so they can’t cast DA, tog, or intuition.
Against aggro which is better depends on the deck. Honestly neither is great v sleigh, but at least LD can keep them off scroll mana while discard just gets them closer to the 1 card hand they need. On the other hand, if you snag a bolt that’s 3 damage you didn’t take.. In the sui mirror ld can make it hard for the other guy to get stay at BB if they are splashing. Although, they can still get there for a turn with fetch stuff so its not great.

Now a question:

How much luck are you having with bloodmoon? I know with tog I think I’ve maybe lost one game to blood moon despite having it cast against me tons of times. The fetch a basic island plan really works. And it seems like without sinks there’s not much you can do about basic islands. Although, my experience with blood moon is mostly from red decks backed up with red blasts so it might not apply here to a deck with a different disruption suite.

[Matt The Great]

With the advent of fetchlands, Sinkhole becomes worse in two distinct ways:

1. When the opponent leads with a fetchland and does not immediately use it, your Sinkholes cannot be used immediately. This puts a huge dent in the tempo they provide.
2. With fetchlands, it becomes almost impossible to color-screw someone with one-for-one trades. Only something like Blood Moon will do this.

Thus, I cannot agree with your statement that "LD is how you beat control".

If I was running Blood Moon, I guess Sinkholes would be better (basic island plan is good, as you mentioned).