[DECK] Gay/r Fish - metagaming

[orgcandman]

Actually, I HAVE been testing a U/W Fish version, and I'd have to say I'm quite pleased with the results.

The first thing I'll say is this: I do not run meddling mage.

His Pros:
- He shuts decks off
- He's a beater

Cons:
- As a creature, he's easy to deal with (1 fire/ice, 1 lava dart, etc)
- As a beater, he has no evasion
- As a lock piece, he's easy to play around
- He only helps matches that are already good.

Against oath, mage comes down either the turn after, or the turn just before oath hits. In the case where mage comes down the turn after, he's obviously junk.
In the case that he comes down the turn right before, fish gets to fight a counter war. However, it will be running force and daze, and it's opponent will ALSO be running force and daze. Not only that, but the daze will end up kill YOU as you'd have to tap out for it.

I believe that the mage slot would much better be maindeck annuls. They're cheaper, lend themselves to the dragon, workshop aggro, oath, control slaver, and control matchups as mana denial, artifact counters for U, or enchantment counters for U. The ability to be out on turn 1 is insane.

Even further, Stifle is incredibly strong right now. Everyone is loaded up on fetches, everyone is either playing welder, or playing combo, and everyone is vulnerable to this targetting a fetch.

Wasteland is not in a very strong position, but I feel it's only a matter of time before people return to allduals.dec and wasteland comes back.

Thanks
Aaron

[49 Cents]

In the case that he comes down the turn right before, fish gets to fight a counter war.

And that is why I suggest you try Vials. They are really, really great and if you drop a first turn Vial the oath playing hasn't got its mana ready for drain and stuff, so he can only use FoW and Misdirection.

I am going to try another UW Fish build on MWS (anyone likes to help?), running Crucible, StP and 4 mages. I'll see wether is Junk or Great.

Greetz,

Hugo

[Freelancer]

Actually vial isn't that great against oath why?
let's assume you drop vial AND you have a meddling mage...Than the opponent just goes land go-brainstorm second turn oath, where did vial help you? (I don't know the percentages but second turn oath is very likely)
Granted there are very few card that will help you, but game 1 you probably have a better shot with for instance waterfront bouncer, if only you could protect it for 1 turn...

My current plan against oath is borrowed from WW, I am running both weathered wayfarer and vial to search for my lone karakas wich will hopefully slow them down enough for me to play my tempo game and win that way...(I am aware that karakas will only slow them down because eventually they are going to find a waste) Unlike the vial-mage strategy I have now effectivly gained a extra turn because I don't have to answer the oath I have a answer for the creatures they oath out (make sure you don't loose 2 life somewhere in the process)...

The problem for fish is that oath has a natural strategy superiority over fish and that it does not have any particular card that completely shuts it down...



Ps. if you drop mage in response to oath the oath will not get countered...

[49 Cents]

Hmm, Are you sure it doesnt work? Because I was pessimistic about and asked a judge at the GP, and he assured me that it is possible.

Bad judge?

Anyway, My current list looks something like this:

3 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Meddling Mage
4 Spiketail Hatchling
2 Voidmage Prodigy
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
[/list:u]

I'm only testing it for like 2 hours and the main problem is the lack on Blue sources. Ive cutted crucible for more creatures (vial), and moved StP to the SB as the meta here is like Control, Control, Control.
There are 2 Crucibles in my SB at the moment, becasue they are great but I havent got room for them Maindeck.

This

isn't the best list if you ask me, but its fun to play and it works pretty good. What do you guys think?

Greetz,

Hugo

[DJ_DDP]

Why isent anyone Thinking About UW Fish, IT IS SOOOOOOO MUCH better than UR, the only think good with UR, is that it have some kind of matchup vs aggro, but it still loses too much against Agro


On the other hand, UW Fish have Meddling Mage, Sword to Plowshare and SB Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing Against Oath

It have SB Sacred Ground and Energy Flux and Disenchent/Seal of Cleansing against Workshop Based Decks

And any combo deck loses to UW Fish, of course Combo can just freak out and than you lose anyway, but i have Counters, and mostly Meddling Mage, Naming Treandrills and Cunning Wish, than you win.


DJ_DDP
Martin

[49 Cents]

Why isent anyone Thinking About UW Fish, IT IS SOOOOOOO MUCH better than UR, the only think good with UR, is that it have some kind of matchup vs aggro, but it still loses too much against Agro

Read the last 5 posts or something?  

And any combo deck loses to UW Fish, of course Combo can just freak out and than you lose anyway, but i have Counters, and mostly Meddling Mage, Naming Treandrills and Cunning Wish, than you win.

That isnt 100% true.
Most combolists pack maindeck bounce like Chain of Vapor AND wish AND Tendrils, so you have to have like 3 mages, before they go off  
But I tested my list against TPS and really, if the TPS player isnt going to well or moves slow you can win with eas.

Greetz,

Hugo

[Freelancer]

Yeah I'm sure meddling mage:

As meddling mage comes into play name a non-land card. (not important here)
The named card can't be played.

If the card is on the stack than the card is already played, so it doesn't work...   (would be pretty amazing having a uncounterable counter on a stick that keeps on working lol)


Ninja of the deep hours does not belong in fish, it is tempo disadvantage...You loose tempo by returning a creature to your hand if the ability was free it would be awesome but as it is standing now it belongs in control (wich doesn't play to much creatures), because control can afford to loose tempo for card advantage...


For the dutchies here: Het valt tussen wal en schip...

[49 Cents]

Ninja of the deep hours does not belong in fish, it is tempo disadvantage...You loose tempo by returning a creature to your hand if the ability was free it would be awesome but as it is standing now it belongs in control (wich doesn't play to much creatures), because control can afford to loose tempo for card advantage...

In my testings I had a lot of times that my hand was:
- Almost empty, A ninja helps here,
- Full with crap, like land or secondary things (vials, rods).

I think the Ninja's can do it in Fish, but no more then 2 times and they are easily replaced by other things.. A Ninja with a CoF works, and a Ninja with a Meddling Mage also works..

Just my 49 Cents,

Greetz,

Hugo

[Freelancer]

Wouldn't memory mask serve the same purpose in that situation, mask however draws 2 cards and gets rid off random (bad) cards...

9/10 times a ninja will cost you 4 (!) mana, 2 to play sneak the ninja into play and 2 to replay the creature you used to play the ninja...

[warble]

Hey, my first comment is how did you manage to empty your hand with fish?  The one thing fish has going for it is curious faeries protected by daze.  Are you playtesting against burn or 4cc or something?  Every time I've played against fish if the hand went to 0 fish had already lost, so it seems like your main problem is a lack of draw here, or maybe all your creatures are dying once you plop down curiosity?  If so, try lightning greaves or sword of fire/ice because honestly, dude, fish is a nightmare against most decks except when they run hate and who is running fish hate now...?
As to the fish player that hopes to beat Tendrils, you realize Tendrils has like 15 more cards that are restricted then fish right?  Okay that's a minor exaggeration, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) I believe Tendrils is simply more powerful then fish and the reason that fish can beat tendrils is that the fish player metagames like a FIEND when they see a field full of Tendrils players.  That being said, I'm not sure you will encounter said field and if you do maindeck 4 chalice!  Chalice for 1 should annihilate tendrils and if you can't counter their bounce you deserve to lose with fish anyhow.  Chalice+Null is a kill, but you shut out most of your deck so you need a good idea of what your opponent is playing before you try that.

[49 Cents]

Hi,

How do I get My hand empty?
Suppose this is my hand:

FoW
Daze
Vial
Mage
Island
Curiosity
Fetch

It isnt bad. I begin with Fetch - Vial. My opponent plays Volcanic, Welder. I play Daze. I go and draw a Spiketail Hatchling. I lay the island and he goes again. He drops a Lotus and a land and I can go again. I put a counter on Vial and draw a land. Lay another land, tap vial for mage on Welder. I play a curiosity on it and he plays mana drain. I Have to play FoW, discarding Hatchling, but he sacs lotus for brainstorm and mana drain. At this point I have only 1 island left in my hand   :shock:

And if you play 4 rods and 4 chalice, together with 4 mage, 4 fow and 2 daze, the Combomatchup becomes pretty suitable.

Wouldn't memory mask serve the same purpose in that situation, mask however draws 2 cards and gets rid off random (bad) cards...

Yes, But it doesnt work that well with Null Rod..

Greetz,

Hugo

[Freelancer]

I assumed you didn't run null rod because you where running aether vials, I probably should've been more clear though...

(aether vials + rods= no good either)

[Coleco]

Yes, But it doesnt work that well with Null Rod..

Aether Vial doesnt work well with Null Rod too.

edit: oops.

About Curiosity.

What was great in UR Fish was Grim Lavamancer because he was an awsome Curiosity target. Now in UW version we have Meddling Mage who is a really bad curiosity target. Some ppl run Ninja of the deep hour and/or Voidmage Prodigy. Again, those are not great with Curiosity. Same thing for Spiketail Hatchling. That leave us with only Cloud of Faeries to become Curious. What we need for UW Fish is a great creature with evasion that can take the spot of Grim Lavamancer but without cutting the Meddling Mage who are essential to UW fish imo.

Flying Men? Naah.
Shadow creature? Didnt find any good one.
Waterfront Bouncer? not curious.
Serendib Efreet? I dont know.. i give up

[warble]

Okay, so to sum up:

You went down to 0 cards in your hand in this scenario.
Your opponent has 6 mana drain mana coming next turn, 2 dual lands, and all you have to show for your game is a solitary and very stupid looking mage.  Well at this point slaver goes "I win" no seriously what slaver deck can't win with 9 mana AFTER a brainstorm?  I'm not joking, this game is over, you have lost, and the fact that you went down to 0 cards didn't matter because you just lost, man, plain and simple.  On turn 2 you walked into a double mana drain, end of story, the game is done.

What you can do to make your deck more resilient against slaver is to put those null rods that the person whose post this is has in HIS fish deck, because aether vial versus null rod is...no contest...put null rod in take out aether vial.

And to reiterate my point, if fish has 0 cards in hand, fish has lost.  It's pretty simple, and to reiterate a previous point about a meddling mage, in this circumstance because you hold a curiosity and a force backup you can safely name mana drain with your mage and avoid the whole scenario.  The reason here is that your opponent still has 3 welders, you already avoided the fast welder drop, and resolving your curiosity with a small hand and a force backup is what should be priority number 1 here.  Don't think aggression against welder, because the curiosity has taken priority over welder control.  An early slave without welder backup isn't a threat against fish and because you are running an aggro deck and HAVE a force of will in hand, you can be pretty certain a) your opponent has to draw into a welder and b) your opponent has to resolve a spell to take out your mage with only force backup, meaning you have taken out half of his control and will have a mage with curiosity beating down while drawing you cards.  Would we all have the guts to name mana drain against welder?  YES dude all of us name mana drain especially if you have already taken out a welder, taking threats from welder down to 3 while leaving threats from drain at 4 and your KEY spell is about to get cast!  Curiosity is so key in fish you can almost consider sword of fire and ice as another draw source except fish NEEDS null rod.  But in your build put in sword of fire/ice and goodness name drain in that circumstance and get your extra cards pumping.  Slaver will have to bomb you the next turn against a force to win, and with the drains out you have a great winning opportunity holding a force and drawing that extra card (could be key!)

[Diakonov]

First off, somebody should probably lock this thread so we can open a new one.  The title is drastically misleading (I know, I started the thread, but this new discussion has proved to be far more productive).

To address the Null Rod issue.  Playing Fish without Null Rod is like going outside with no clothes on.  Aether Vial is a neat trick, but seriously guys.

Also, I'd like to point out again that playing Ninja is as much of a tempo loss as casting a Curiosity; not to mention that if you are using a creature with power = 1 to do it, you are doing more immediate damage and in fact generating tempo.  Tempo-wise, I'd say it's a pretty neutral play.

I haven't tested Ninja enough to guarantee its inclusion, but I could see trying out a couple.  I wouldn't mind running 6 Curiosities, and the conditionality is hardly noticeable.

This is just play-style I guess, but it seems that under most circumstances the best card to name with Mage vs. TPS would be Dark Ritual.  Against Slaver it depends a lot more on the situation at hand, but I would be inclined to name Thirst usually.  Mana Drain and Welder would normally be second on the list, as they simply aren't as scary (maintaining the assumption that Null Rod has made it safely into play).

[49 Cents]

This is just play-style I guess, but it seems that under most circumstances the best card to name with Mage vs. TPS would be Dark Ritual.

Ritual is kinda like the best card in the deck, AND it runs 4 copies. So Mage on Ritual? Hell Yeah

Against Slaver it depends a lot more on the situation at hand, but I would be inclined to name Thirst usually.  Mana Drain and Welder would normally be second on the list, as they simply aren't as scary (maintaining the assumption that Null Rod has made it safely into play).

But lately they all play Intuitions and stuff, and if they have already played a single one of them (with a fattie or something in the Graveyard), I would put it on Welder. If they can't play Welders, they have to drain something big or just wait untill they have enough mana to hardcast (And Fish doesnt play big things, and isn't going to give them the chance to create 6/7/8 mana).
You can also put is on Drain, but only if he has a Welder already, and a few artifacts in his Graveyard.

Greetz,

Hugo

[Zelyon]

I like the original list, it's very similar to what I play.

Here are just a few changes that help with consistancy IMO.

Mana Base

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby

Creatures

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ninja of Deep Shadow

Draw

4 Curiosity
4 Standstill

Disruption/Counter

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
3 Null Rod
1 Crucible of Worlds

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Annul
4 Energy Flux (4 Energy Flux is a MUST! It absolutely wrecks workshop decks especially since they can't use Workshop mana to pay it's costs and you can waste away their Ancient Tombs.)

The deck is pretty good now. Trinisphere restriction helps things a bit. Null Rod is useful again. 5/3s are less common. So 4 Energy Flux and 4 Annul help you have a solid matchup against Workshop decks of all flavor.

All Fish needs now is some way to deal with combo. I upped the number of counters (Dazes rock) and can sometimes buy enough time with them to search up and play a Null Rod or Energy Flux. But I wouldn't mind being able to play 4 Meddling Mage and a Swords to help out too.

So for a URW variant, something like this could work...

Mana Base

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

Creatures

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Meddling Mage

Draw

4 Curiosity
4 Standstill

Disruption/Counter

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
3 Null Rod
2 Swords to Plowshore

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Annul
1 Disenchant
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swords to Plowshore
1 Stifle
1 Energy Flux
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Crucible of Worlds