[UPDATE] Vintage Championship in France Top33 and Top8 Unpo

[PizzaMan]

Oh my god...

I've never expected to see this kinda of thing in this forum.

I understand that you might think that the lists may look sub-optimal, but at least try and test it against the "so optimal decklists 3V4R!!one!11!".
Some of the choices may seem odd, but who doesn't put 2 Hydro 2 BEB instead of 4 BEBs?
That's the same thing for DotD over Animate #3.
Also, I don't see much problem in the 2 Und Rivers, as the SB plan is to blow up "basic" lands with Titans. Also not been affected in game 1 against them. And who cares for 3 life point in Vintage? The ones who does, I recommend to remove the Fetch Lands and FoWs from the lists... ¬¬

The Tendrils "TeCH" in Sensei Sensei is just not to have an auto-loss against Oath in game one. I was going to try this out, because the metagame in Brazil is full of Oaths and Agro decks (Like FCG, Fishs, UGs, Sui and other UNpowereds). With Black being stronger, Duress is a nice choice to add in the deck...

These are just "odd" choices, but doesn't mean that the Top8 was mediocre at all!

And I would L-O-V-E to see a tournament with 50-50 americans and "Europeans" :p

Oh, BTW, congrats to all folks! The winers and the TOs!
I would love to play in 2006... the only problem is the ~$800 fly tickets plus food and a place to stay...
U$ 1,00 == R$ 2,51 (Real is current brazilian money). This means that a fly to Paris is over than R$ 2.000,00, and a job that pays R$ 1.000,00/month don't help 

OBS: Sorry for my poor english.

[Monk(fr)]

As far as running caller over witness there is accutally nothing to say that can convince me that the caller is better in anyway unless you a are a fan of winning one round later in the game.

You don't seem to understand that both of them shows pros or cons. In your case you don't spot the Witness' cons and only see the Caller's.

Let me explain:

Eternal Witness:
In order to kill you must have at least : 2 animate spells (in graveyard  and 1  in hand), 1 Wgr Dragon, 1 Ancestral Recall or 1 Time Walk ( this kill is so complex that I don't remember exactly how to do it ).
In a nutshell, you bring back Dragon with a random enchant dead creature, take infinite colored mana, activate BoB until the win conditions are in the grave, enchant Witness which targets the second "enchant: dead creature" which will reanimate the Dragon, loops goes on and all your grave is in your hand then infinite Ancestral Recall on your opponent. That's great against Gaea's Blessing or DSC.

But what if your opponent has one of those things:
a Lava Dart ( 1 more animate spell is needed )
an E Plague naming human or shaman ( random bouncespell needed )
CotV with 1 counter ( same )
True Believer (same)
Root Maze (same)
Meddling Mage put by Ather Vial

And if you can't have your blue mana for some reasons like Blood Moon, Null Rod, Strip Mine or Wasteland what would you do?
- Nothing...
Even Intuition can't save you all the time when there is no BoB.

But,
Caller of the Claw:
To kill you need 1 Dragon in graveyard, 1 Caller in grave,an animate spell you can cast ( Necromancy in the best case) and/ or a Time Walk to kill imediately.
To search and set the combo you need: 1 BoB or Compulse if Caller isn't already in the grave.
But the biggest difference is that you don't need any mana once the loop begins !

And Caller isn't spoiled by the haters I listed for Witness and can win with Intuition.

unless you a are a fan of winning one round later in the game

Necromancy can be played as an instant too 

And it beats Gaea's Blessing too.

I stiil don't understand why you're keeeping on denying that there cannot be another Dragon.dec build that can win ...

[dexter]

@monk

First off i know how the witness win works, and when you have to learn how to play it its acctually not that complex (especially with the ancestral way its the infinte time walks that can be a bit tricky in the before you learn it properly). I know the pros and cons with witness vs caller i had the caller in my lists for a long time until i tried witness out and found it can wins over situations that are common that caller or ambassador cant win through as easy (platinum angel, blessning, more bizzare situations like vs kombo that has resovled necro and has will on hand and so on) so i know the difference. Now lets take a look at your examples.

"a Lava Dart ( 1 more animate spell is needed )"

Okay if this situation will not accur in a UB version of dragon unless the player you are facing have done some serious mistakes during sideboarding and then you should be glad he acctually has dead cards in the deck against you. And besides i acctually dont see what this stops, if you are afraid that you will get pwned by a lavadart then just bring up the extra animation spell during the first time of the loop.

"an E Plague naming human or shaman ( random bouncespell needed )"'

When did you acctually see this card being played in t1 the last time? Besides in this case you probably can win with laquatus anyway so lets move on.

"CotV with 1 counter ( same )"

CotV with 1 counter stops laquatus how? CotV with 1 counter stops infinite time walks how? If someone plays CotV for 1 im just glad, means they have shut down more cards in their deck than in my dragon anyway.

"True Believer (same)"

Stops infinite timewalks how? And besides same as with EP when did you see this get played in a good t1 tourney last time anyway?

"Root Maze (same)"

Ok, this is the one time caller is better than witness or laquatus.

"Meddling Mage put by Ather Vial"

And what should the meddling mage name? Name ancestral and you only take inf time walks, name time walk and you ancestral him to death.

And for the last thing, i see witness as an SECONDARY wincon, 9 outta 10 games you just win with laquatus anway so it doesnt matter if you have blue mana or not thoose games, besides the mana base in dragon should support enough basics for you to survive blood moon anyway. As for strip, he has 1 strip mine i have 4 fetch and 2-3 basic islands. And as someone once said if the waste / strip your mana lands instead of bazaar your probably gonna win anyway.

Now ive been enough offtopic on this thread so i wont discuss dragon anymore here, but feel free to start an discussion somewhere else of which is better caller of witness and i might join in there.

[Hyperion]

Reopened. Keep discussion relevant to the decklists, not the players, and not the quality of respective metagames or warnings will be admininstered as they become necessary.

[Carlos]

Hi, would be possible to post the Top 8 decklists without pack ?

Thanks,

[DuKeLiO]

The two Engineered Explosives in the Alejandro Escribano's sideboard were Engineered PLAGUE instead.

[The Atog Lord]

I was going to post this before a while ago, until I saw the thread had been locked...

Congrats to everyone who fought their way into the top eight. That’s quite an acomplishment.

In a format with GiftsBelcher.dec seeing a lot of play, I'm very happy to see Control Slaver doing so well. However, I have a few concerns regarding the deck which came in third place. Some of these concerns can be explained away by a limited cardpool, because of the lack of proxies allowed by the format.

First, in a deck with Gifts Ungiven, why not play an Island and a Snow-Covered Island over a pair of Islands? Also, playing two Strands and two Deltas makes sense. In both cases, while it will not help very often, there is almost no downside whatsoever to doing this.

My second concern is not something which can be explained away by a limited card pool – the fact that the deck is sixty one cards. A sixty one card deck is never correct, because it effectively reduces the number of Ancestrals, Yawgmoth’s Wills, Force of Wills, etc. Having 61 cards in a deck almost always means that a little more discipline must be shown in deck construction. My first thought is that one of either Chain of Vapor or Cunning Wish should be removed. I’ve never needed more than a single “spot removal” spell in Control Slaver. Chain, while sometimes amazing, also lacks synergy with a deck filled with so many expensive permanents, and is terrible against Chalice of the Void set at one. Besides, the Wish would remain to handle various problematic cards.

The mana base is something I wouldn’t feel safe running. My Control Slaver lists usually have 26 mana sources, and my Gifts Belcher list runs a modest 25. This list has 24 mana sources, and with 61 cards, I can’t see that being enough. My preference would be seeing a Library added into the deck; there are few cards more powerful against other control decks. While it is possible that the Crucible could make up for that missing mana source, after testing the deck about two dozen games last night, I felt it could have benefited from another actual source.

Finally, I’m really struggling to understand the Intuition being used over a third Gifts. Without “default” targets like Deep Analysis or even Accumulated Knowledge, Intuition is not that good. Sure, you can get yourself Will, Lotus, Recoup, but then it’s just acting as a bad Gifts. Also, with only one Mindslaver in the deck, you can’t Intuition and be assured of getting the Slaver in the yard; with Gifts, you can. Though, perhaps I’m missing something here.

[Subaru]

The Unpowered Top8 is on-line here : http://solomoxen.com/?page=7&id=43

[orgcandman]

And what's the problem with DoD?
It has the same CC than Animate Dead and it is used the same way. And if it was the case, I'd rather not loosing time because of a Meddling Mage or a Cranial extraction.

This is horrible reasoning.
Meddling mage should NEVER be a problem, as running 3 animates, and 3 necromancy should effectively seal the game. This configuration also allows you to swing with your creatures if you decide to bring in titans. (people HAVE bothered to read that you need to keep paying mana to untap with DoD, right?)
As for cranial extraction, only a bad player would name your reanimation spells. If you resolve cranial extraction against dragon, the card you name is "Worldgorger Dragon" and that's about it.

To Paul, why White of all colors in Psychatog

If you didn't notice it, it's not totally a ToG deck. I'd say it's more like a crossover between 4cc and ToG. It takes the advantages from both of them.

4cc: the "rule-the-game" items like Swords to Plowshares, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Disenchant and Balance which allows him to handle Madness and its BoB for instance.

ToG: the kill "hulk", and the draw engine far better than 4cc's.

#1 - 4cc isn't about "rule the game" items. it's about correct solutions for any given problem. Balance isn't so great against any deck running squees, bazaar, and madness creatures. Disenchant and StP are just solid removal cards.

#2 - The draw engine of tog isn't much better than 4cc's. paying 4 mana for a non-rebable, non-misdirectable ancestral > paying 5 mana for a non-misdirectable ancestral.

[Monk(fr)]

Balance isn't so great against any deck running squees, bazaar, and madness creatures.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. In my reply the cards to handle Madness wasn't only Balance but on the front row: Strip Mine, Wasteland and Swords to Plowshares.

If you resolve cranial extraction against dragon, the card you name is "Worldgorger Dragon" and that's about it.

Doing this doesn't allows you to win the game for sure...

paying 4 mana for a non-rebable, non-misdirectable ancestral > paying 5 mana for a non-misdirectable ancestral.

Yeah indeed but you forgot something: in 4CC you run about 1 FoF, 3 or 4 Skeletal Scrying which depends on your graveyard's size and your life points ( to a lower extent) while in ToG or ToGer you have 4 AK, 3 Intuition, 2 DA ( searchable with Intuition because Intuition doesn't search only AKs ).

(people HAVE bothered to read that you need to keep paying mana to untap with DoD, right?)

The mana base of Dragon allows it not to destroy its own lands with Titan, that's why 2 manas aren't that expansive. And what would you do with those 2 manas? Once Titi is reanimated, you just have to beatdown!

This is horrible reasoning.

I think that we ain't here to critcize ourselves this way. I just expose you the point not blaming on your meta or your thoughts about the builds.

Monk, Temper, temper...

[Klep]

Balance isn't so great against any deck running squees, bazaar, and madness creatures.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. In my reply the cards to handle Madness wasn't only Balance but on the front row: Strip Mine, Wasteland and Swords to Plowshares.

Yeah, Balance is actually pretty good against Madness.  You just have to be careful in casting it.

If you resolve cranial extraction against dragon, the card you name is "Worldgorger Dragon" and that's about it.

Doing this doesn't allows you to win the game for sure...

It puts you a damn sight closer than naming anything else.  The deck isn't called Dragon because it animates Nicol Bolas to beat down with.

paying 4 mana for a non-rebable, non-misdirectable ancestral > paying 5 mana for a non-misdirectable ancestral.

Yeah indeed but you forgot something: in 4CC you run about 1 FoF, 3 or 4 Skeletal Scrying which depends on your graveyard's size and your life points ( to a lower extent) while in ToG or ToGer you have 4 AK, 3 Intuition, 2 DA ( searchable with Intuition because Intuition doesn't search only AKs ).

And you forgot to quote his entire statement, which started with "The draw engine of tog isn't much better than 4cc's."  Which engine is actually that slight bit better, however is based on what your deck is trying to do.  Now first, you aren't going to have problems filling your graveyard to a point where you can use Scrying effectively.  Secondly, the correct number of Scryings is 4.  Not 3 or 4 (except maybe in an aggro-saturated meta, but then what are you doing running a deck that spends its life like water).  For less mana than the Intuition engine, you will draw more cards off a single Scrying, and it will be less vulnerable.  They may get better efficiency off the last AK than you will off Scrying number 2, but if you're running Scrying it isn't because you need masses of cards right at one moment the way Tog does.  You run Scrying when you need a steady advantage throughout the game like 4CC does.  Now, you've implied that that one deck tries to play like 4CC but finish off the opponent with Tog (by stating that the advantage from 4CC that deck uses is its ability to control the board).  If it wants to play like 4CC, it should be using Scrying.

(people HAVE bothered to read that you need to keep paying mana to untap with DoD, right?)

The mana base of Dragon allows it not to destroy its own lands with Titan, that's why 2 manas aren't that expansive. And what would you do with those 2 manas? Once Titi is reanimated, you just have to beatdown!

So you're going to substantially weaken the manabase so that you can run a creature that allows you to beat down in a combo deck.  Verdant Force has been used for a long time in Dragon for matchups where it wanted to beat down, and he doesn't require mucking up the manabase.  Since when is he suddenly inadequate?  It certainly doesn't work in Titan's favor that Titan is substantially more vulnerable than Force.

This is horrible reasoning.

I think that we ain't here to critcize ourselves this way. I just expose you the point not blaming on your meta or your thoughts about the builds.

Actually, we are here to criticize in this way.  This website is devoted t Type 1 discussion and improving the general state of the meta.  Thus it is our responsibility to call bad reasoning when we see it, and explain why.  Do not expect to get treated with kid gloves, because that is not what this site is about.

[Limbo]

(people HAVE bothered to read that you need to keep paying mana to untap with DoD, right?)

The mana base of Dragon allows it not to destroy its own lands with Titan, that's why 2 manas aren't that expansive. And what would you do with those 2 manas? Once Titi is reanimated, you just have to beatdown!
So you're going to substantially weaken the manabase so that you can run a creature that allows you to beat down in a combo deck.  Verdant Force has been used for a long time in Dragon for matchups where it wanted to beat down, and he doesn't require mucking up the manabase.  Since when is he suddenly inadequate?  It certainly doesn't work in Titan's favor that Titan is substantially more vulnerable than Force.

I actually played against a dragon player that animated a titan after I extracted his dragons. By doing that he killed three lands, thereby preventing me from winning with the SB tendrills in my recoup gifts deck, because I was short on mana. I know that a single event like this doesn't prove that titan is the better choice, but it certainly has its uses. Question is if nuking lands > getting a few saprolings and if staying non-artifact > artifact critter.

Against a lot of decks, titan nukes 2-3 lands when coming into play, and 2-3 if he leaves (if the opponent actually has that many). Either way, even if he removes the titan, he is still in big trouble, where a few saproling tokens don't matter much.

[Monk(fr)]

Now, you've implied that that one deck tries to play like 4CC but finish off the opponent with Tog (by stating that the advantage from 4CC that deck uses is its ability to control the board).  If it wants to play like 4CC, it should be using Scrying.

I think in order to finish the opponent you shouldn't abuse of the Scrying ... 4cc had an Angel to gain life...

Actually, we are here to criticize in this way.  This website is devoted to Type 1 discussion and improving the general state of the meta.  Thus it is our responsibility to call bad reasoning when we see it, and explain why.  Do not expect to get treated with kid gloves, because that is not what this site is about.

Yeah, yeah I was just asking for respect not blame and that's what I expected from you guys .
Blaming somebody gives him good reasons not to litsen to your pieces of advice.

[Klep]

Now, you've implied that that one deck tries to play like 4CC but finish off the opponent with Tog (by stating that the advantage from 4CC that deck uses is its ability to control the board).  If it wants to play like 4CC, it should be using Scrying.

I think in order to finish the opponent you shouldn't abuse of the Scrying ... 4cc had an Angel to gain life...

And if you're finishing off with Tog, you only need to live long enough to swing once.  Why does it matter if you're at 3 life or 13?

Actually, we are here to criticize in this way.  This website is devoted to Type 1 discussion and improving the general state of the meta.  Thus it is our responsibility to call bad reasoning when we see it, and explain why.  Do not expect to get treated with kid gloves, because that is not what this site is about.

Yeah, yeah I was just asking for respect not blame and that's what I expected from you guys .
Blaming somebody gives him good reasons not to litsen to your pieces of advice.

No one blamed you of anything except poor reasoning, and that was a claim backed up with evidence.  If you want respect, you have to show you are worthy of it.

[savekeeper]

I don't know if he is reading this, or if someone can answer for him, but I had a few questions for the #1 budget Bird Shit deck:

- Why did he play a Library of Alexandria? Did he ever use it to draw cards while he wasn't already winning? Was it worth it to sacrifice a land that can tap for colored mana for a Library?

- How usefull was Regrowth? Wasn't it painfully slow?

- Did he get mana screwed often?

- Why the Engineered Explosives in his sideboard? Again, seems like it would be very slow in a deck running so few lands.

- Same goes for Energy Flux.

- Why Chill? Was he that afraid of FCG?

- What did he board out for the Ground Seals?

I know that's a lot of questions but as a Bird Shit player (finished 89 at Paris), I could use the information to improve my game with the deck.

Klep wrote:

If you want respect, you have to show you are worthy of it.

From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

If you acknowledge this in the slightest possible way, then don't you agree that he should at least be threaded with respect? I think that is all he wants.

[Kerith]

I will relay your questions as I am not sure whether he reads TMD. Some I can answer you right away tho (I am testing with him from time to time).
-Regrowth was used to get back a Wasteland most of the time which was quite useful
-Engineered Explosives were there to fight random aggro (non-WS obv.) if I remember correctly
-Chill. Yes, we were quite sure many players would chose FCG to get a good shot at unpowered T8

[Dozer]

Ok, so some of the decks feel weird. Some make questionable choices, like omitting Brainstorms. Some miss obvious things, like a Snow-Covered Island in Gifts. To me (and I am sad that I could not make the trip), this looks like basically the best proof that in Vintage, a deck needs not to be constructed "optimally" (in a purely theoretical sense) if you want to win with it. I have said this before: the raw power of Vintage decks sometimes eliminates the need for a certain sharpness in deckbuilding. Case in point: the single Death Spark instead of Brainstorm #4. This will only be relevant in a very small number of games, and in some of those even Death Spark will be better.

In the long run, a deck that is not built to maximize its strategies will not be consistent. It may well win a tournament, though. If it is consistent, then either the player got lucky a lot of times or the changes must be looked at closely as to their function. (I think this is the difference between a player that tunes his Dragon.dec for two years and someone who shows up at the tournament with a control deck he built two weeks ago. I'm not claiming that someone in particular did that, but I'm sure someone did.)

So while you are painstakingly pointing out minor differences or choices, that contradict common deckbuilding wisdom, take a step back and acknowledge that some of those might just not have mattered.

On a completely different take, thanks for the organizers to do this, and congratulations to all players that finished with success.

Dozer

[Tobi]

In the long run, a deck that is not built to maximize its strategies will not be consistent. It may well win a tournament, though. If it is consistent, then either the player got lucky a lot of times or the changes must be looked at closely as to their function. (I think this is the difference between a player that tunes his Dragon.dec for two years and someone who shows up at the tournament with a control deck he built two weeks ago. I'm not claiming that someone in particular did that, but I'm sure someone did.)

I did, and I lost badly (3:5:1)
Should have played RG Beatz like Loachim (18th)

To me (and I am sad that I could not make the trip), this looks like basically the best proof that in Vintage, a deck needs not to be constructed "optimally" (in a purely theoretical sense) if you want to win with it. I have said this before: the raw power of Vintage decks sometimes eliminates the need for a certain sharpness in deckbuilding.

I think you are right. But this doesn't mean that building vintage decks optimally isn't necessary. It's just one part besides playskill and luck that you need to win tournaments.

In a tournament like this one, luck may be the most important thing you need. You can be a very good player and have an optimal built deck, and still miss the top 8 because you get manascrewed once.