Out of the Ashes: Hulk Smash 05

[Smmenen]

Whoops, my bad, I simply was counting Intuition in there on accident.

Still basic point stands, TFK draws basically the same number of cards (or let's you see as many) for cheaper.

That's a false statement and misleading at the same time.  The Intuition AK engine properly used is 7 mana for 7 cards - but the mana is amortized in blocks of 3/2/2 so that you can play it whenever you want.  It's misleading because TFK lets you see as many cards as the first AK, but you only get to keep 2.  It's false becuase it actually sees exactly the same number of cards for the same mana when amortized.  7 Mana for 7 cards is one mana per card.  Thirst is three mana to see three cards.  That's one mana per card. 


 The Intuition AK draw engine is the most robust draw engine in the format now that Fact and Gush are restricted.  It may not be optimal in any given deck for specific reasons, but it should be the default draw engine of any control deck.  Compelling justification should be shown for not using it.  Although I like both TFK AND intuiton/AK in slaver, TFK clearly has insane synergy with Welder which justifies its presence.  The number of slots it occupies makes Scrying a suitable substitute in 3cc.  But as a default matter, INtuition/AK is the strongest control draw engine, objectively speaking, in the format.  It also has insane synergy with Yawg Will - which is plain for all to see. 

[Vegeta2711]

That's a false statement and misleading at the same time.  The Intuition AK engine properly used is 7 mana for 7 cards - but the mana is amortized in blocks of 3/2/2 so that you can play it whenever you want.  It's misleading because TFK lets you see as many cards as the first AK, but you only get to keep 2.  It's false becuase it actually sees exactly the same number of cards for the same mana when amortized.  7 Mana for 7 cards is one mana per card.  Thirst is three mana to see three cards.  That's one mana per card. 

Um, yeah it sounds misleading because I'm talking about Intuition AK. I did not compare TFK to having the Intu AK perfect set-up. That 7 mana for 7 cards is already assuming you have an AK in hand when you cast Intuition. And once again, I'm mainly saying it straight up sucks paying 3 mana before you can even cast the spell that draws you the cards.

[Rico Suave]

That's a false statement and misleading at the same time.  The Intuition AK engine properly used is 7 mana for 7 cards - but the mana is amortized in blocks of 3/2/2 so that you can play it whenever you want.  It's misleading because TFK lets you see as many cards as the first AK, but you only get to keep 2.  It's false becuase it actually sees exactly the same number of cards for the same mana when amortized.  7 Mana for 7 cards is one mana per card.  Thirst is three mana to see three cards.  That's one mana per card. 

 The Intuition AK draw engine is the most robust draw engine in the format now that Fact and Gush are restricted.  It may not be optimal in any given deck for specific reasons, but it should be the default draw engine of any control deck.  Compelling justification should be shown for not using it.  Although I like both TFK AND intuiton/AK in slaver, TFK clearly has insane synergy with Welder which justifies its presence.  The number of slots it occupies makes Scrying a suitable substitute in 3cc.  But as a default matter, INtuition/AK is the strongest control draw engine, objectively speaking, in the format.  It also has insane synergy with Yawg Will - which is plain for all to see. 

To be fair, you can keep all 3 of the cards you see from the TFK, not just 2.

Also, it should be noted that Intuition-AK will eventually draw 7, but only after the expenditure of another card in hand outside of Intuition.  This means you need 2 cards (Intuition+AK) in hand together in order to get the full extent of the card, which is not Intuition by itself anymore.  It is Intuition when you have a 2 card combo.

In other words, if you are going to talk about properly using Intuition then we also need to talk about properly using TFK, which means in a deck with Welder.  The proper way to use TFK is with Welder, and even though TFK and Welder is a 2 card combo, it is the only appropriate comparison that can be made to the 2 card combo that is Intuition and AK.

So unless you want to bring in the topic of Intuition + AK vs. TFK + Welder, perhaps we should leave this at just what a single Intuition can do by itself compared to what a single TFK can do by itself.

I also don't quite understand what you mean by Intuition-AK being the "strongest" control draw engine.  Perhaps you can clarify?  There are many ways to interpret what you mean by strongest, and I can't think of a single interpretation that puts Intuition-AK as being the strongest.

Oh one final thing, I hope you are not implying that Intuition-AK sets up Will and TFK somehow does not.

I would take intution/ak over another engine overall unless I was playing a welder deck. 

No doubt, but then the question becomes is there another deck out there that does what Tog wants to do only with a better engine?  I don't mean to turn this thread into something you don't want it to be, but this question is the heart of why I asked if Intuition-AK was too slow for the modern environment. 

To take this a step further, if Intuition-AK is truly the best engine for Tog, which I believe it is, then is Tog's engine too slow?

[Lord of the Goats]

B. I understand everybodys notion of playing DSC and tinker, but like I said it wasn't consistent enough for me.  Particularly because of the Fish match-up, because the key spell to counter or stop when playing Fish is vial.  If you stop the vial before it becomes active, then you can take the game relatively easily after that meaning you have to not care about chalice for 0.  Plus, drawing the colossus sometimes can be backbreaking.  The bottom line is that I don't like colossus because I don't feel it be a consistent enough EARLY GAME win condition because of chalice, therefore since its mid to late game, I'd rather have a tog which doesn't have any real conditions like needing an artifact or not drawing it.

think about any aggro match up. the gameplan is either to find intuition draw cards and then either drop tog, or cunning wish for a way to effectively win the game (like firestorm). the other option is to go straight for wish, get removal and draw cards while they recover.  often times with darksteel you can make your game significantly simpler by just not bothering to draw cards because you can wish for mystical and get tinker. thus the darksteel acts as our removal since they can't really race it. its also obviously your win condition. the fact that you don't actually need to draw cards is very powerful. as for chalice, it can shut you out of a quick win, but its not a big deal. you just draw cards, find sol ring (or shaman, or explosives) and tinker anyway... you can always wish to kill it too.  besides, if you drop a mox, chalice is irrelevant. chalice is really only a solution to tinker on first turn... after that it's laughable so while i have incorporated solutions to it... I'm not going to cut tinker and darksteel for togs because togs are simply less efficient and require more commitment.

that said, drawing darksteel blows. however i don't think it generally much worse than drawing tog. drawing tinker on the other hand rules.

the other thing that i feel is worth mentioning about it is that cunning wish, mystical, and tinker are all blue and only need a single colored mana.... oh yeah, and we run basic islands. while right now no one is playing non basic hate other than wastes.... i do think we will see an increase in cards like bloodmoon, b2b, and choke. as these become more common i think tog Will get worse while darksteel gets better.

intuition/ak clearly belongs in this deck. just the fact that it's a turn faster than gifts is almost reason enough to play it. plus if you intution turn 2 off a mox then your 3rd turn leaves you ak for 3 and mana drain mana. that's hot. plus, being able to go for deep anal (or just threaten to get it) is nuts. furthermore i intuition for cunning wish all the time, and i get moxen so i can tinker as well. i've actually intuitioned for moxen over ak more than once.

intuition/ak at the very least is faster than gifts... and i hear gifts is pretty good.

[Ultima]

@Alex

Alex, I see what your saying.  The thing is that this deck is based on the idea that mana denial creates the deck's inevitability to win.  Therefore, its gameplan naturaly carries it into the mid and late game.  Since this occurs, I prefer Tog since by that time, tog is a one-turn clock (DSC is 2) and since your always going far into the game, the likelyhood that you'll draw DSC is alot bigger.  Again, Fish's chalices eliminate the CONSISTENT possibility that DSC is an early game win and the deck brings itself into the late game on purpose, therefore making Tog more consistent to me.  Plus there are other decks where playing tinker for DSC is not always the best way to go like Combo and Salvager Oath.   

@ Brad

I don't think that intuition/ak is too slow because the only other draw spell/engine that comes online at 3 is thirst.  Inuition/ak does alot more then thirst, meaning to me that in fact its probably the fastest engine a control deck can ask for right now.

[Smmenen]

I also don't quite understand what you mean by Intuition-AK being the "strongest" control draw engine.  Perhaps you can clarify?  There are many ways to interpret what you mean by strongest, and I can't think of a single interpretation that puts Intuition-AK as being the strongest.

Your reply to Ultima's quote here answers your own question:

I would take intution/ak over another engine overall unless I was playing a welder deck. 

No doubt, but then the question becomes is there another deck out there that does what Tog wants to do only with a better engine?  I don't mean to turn this thread into something you don't want it to be, but this question is the heart of why I asked if Intuition-AK was too slow for the modern environment. 

The 7 cards for 7 mana set up is not the ideal set up - it's the expected set up.  With Brainstorm and the like, if you can't cast AK for four either immediately or shortly after AK for 3, then you are very unlucky or not very good. 

[onelovemachine]

To take this a step further, if Intuition-AK is truly the best engine for Tog, which I believe it is, then is Tog's engine too slow? 

Too slow compared to what?  Slaver's draw engine?  Gifts?  Believe it or not tog needs not worry about these decks.  Round after round at SCG Virginia I played against fish and shop, fish and shop.  I beat fish twice, shop aggro twice, stax once and drew with white landstill (due to time constraints) with UBRg tog only to fall to Kevin Cron in the last and defining round of the swiss.  Honestly, I wish I had been playing against gifts and slaver round after round because those games would have been a much easier time because they are well charted territory.  Granted, Virginia is a little weird in their metagames and often have an abundance of fish and shop, but even in a slightly more control field tog still needs to set its primary concern on the shop and fish archetypes. 

This list emphasizes that point.  If I expected to run into control round after round at the next major tournament I would play maindeck deeps, no strip effects, and additional duress.  Obviously this is not the case.  The deck we are talking about isn't even hulksmash, it is misnomered.  The deck we are talking about is 3cc with a tog win condition. 

that said, drawing darksteel blows. however i don't think it generally much worse than drawing tog. drawing tinker on the other hand rules.

I think that people with less experience with the deck forget how huge tog is as a creature.  He gets much bigger than the 11/11 guy.  The only reason I can see colossus being better in any situation is his indistructible ability.  Tog pitches, isn't countered by duress and swings lethal in a single turn.  I do not get upset when I draw tog vs fish.  When he resolves he is a defensive house and can force your opponent into blocking an attack or risk being comboed out. 

Oh one final thing, I hope you are not implying that Intuition-AK sets up Will and TFK somehow does not.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think TFK sets up will at all, at least no more than careful study or inspiration.  Intuition sets up yawg will, not intuition ak, and it does so almost as well as gifts for a mana less. 

[Revvik]

To be perfectly honest, I don't think TFK sets up will at all, at least no more than careful study or inspiration.  Intuition sets up yawg will, not intuition ak, and it does so almost as well as gifts for a mana less. 

The only possible way Gifts could be better is that it fetches the Will itself, but even then it requires you build your deck towards it even more so than Intuition.
All Intuition requires you to do is run Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, and Time Walk (or fetching whatever wins at that point better than those three).
Thirst for Knowledge isn't comparable to those other two, since it doesn't directly tutor for the game-winning cards (other than the one discussed, Yawgmoth's Will).

[JuJu]

I actually tried playing Tog after Menendian's article on it, I added Pithing Needle as a 2-of in the maindeck (-1 'Metagame Card' and -1  Deep Analysis). It's not the mana denial route that this thread is going but I was wondering if you have tried something other than the mana denial route, perhaps a faster version that would rather win now. Being Combo First, Control second instead of Vice Versa could be powerful but is it right. Also, my version used 4 colors.
I'm unsure if the mana denial route is better, but perhaps it is preferred due to the rise of Fish decks and the lack of Workshop Aggro decks compared to when Menendian's article was released.

[Godder]

TfK and Scrying don't have the synergy with 'Tog and Will that Intuition => AK does. Seeing 7 cards matters more when 'Tog is your win condition, even if some of them are in the graveyard.

[Machinus]

I don't see what the problem is here. Intuition + AK is a really powerful engine that can abuse early acceleration and can lead to quick kills with tog. Like steve said, with brainstorm + fetch, you can set up ak3/ak4 and the cards you draw will be better since you have removed both lands and draw spells. Thirst, on the other hand, is just a utility spell to help you clean up your hand and dig through your library. Discarding 2 lands sucks but seeing 3 cards is great, especially since after drain you can do it with U and set yourself up to go nuts with other, more broken spells after. If you have enough artifacts, thirst is the kind of card you don't really have a choice about including in type 1 control decks. You have to run it just because when it is good, it is really good, and all the other control decks run it. Putting your metagame slots into artifact form only further solidifies this cards place in control decks for a long time - cards like engineered explosives make your deck better since you have anti-aggo cards, and you know what to pitch against control.

Control decks run insane amounts of card draw, and tog and goth slaver can afford the most draw space. Tog is especially customizable. Running the 7 card intuition engine + 2-3 thirsts seems like a pretty good idea, especially with SB colossus.

[Rico Suave]

To take this a step further, if Intuition-AK is truly the best engine for Tog, which I believe it is, then is Tog's engine too slow? 

Too slow compared to what?  Slaver's draw engine?  Gifts?  Believe it or not tog needs not worry about these decks. 

Perhaps I should be more clear. 

Stax and Fish alike punish the additional mana requirements needed for Intuition/AK, combo doesn't give you that much time to play your draw engine in the first place, and opposing control decks are able to cast their draw spells before you can.  Whether Tog needs to worry about beating Slaver/Gifts is something that doesn't even need to be answered to get the point across, and you wouldn't like what I have to say about those matches anyway. 

The question is: what is Tog doing that isn't already being done by another deck?  What reason is there to play Tog over Slaver/Gifts?  Those decks can pack just as much disruption, all the cards that let Tog win (Drains, Force, P9, Will, Tinker, and friends), they can do it with a stable mana base, and they can do it with faster card draw.

For example, against Stax the Slaver player is already equipped with 4 maindeck Welders.  Tog can try to fight Stax with such things as Shaman and Wastelands, but a Slaver player can pack the same things and in many cases already do.  They just don't need to in order to have a solid game against it.

I have wondered for a long time what reason there is to play Tog.  Many Tog players say "oh yea, you can Mana Drain into Intuition/AK and win."  That is just a misconception of not realizing that Draining into anything will win the game regardless of what it is.  The problem is that we haven't realized that what we're Draining into is not as good as what other decks are Draining into.  Additionally, many Tog players say "of course we can answer Welder, through Engineered Explosives and Cunning Wish."  Fine, those are 3 and 4 mana solutions to a 1 mana card.  Good luck finding the mana to answer Welder, get your more expensive draw engine online, and still keep up with your opponent when they have a huge mana advantage over you.

All in all, Tog can win many games just because it abuses broken cards, but what deck can't?  What matters is how the deck performs when it doesn't get an accelerated start or when the opponent draws just as much acceleration, and in those cases the Tog decks fall behind way too quickly because the deck is on the whole slower than other control decks in the environment.  In other words, other decks can abuse the cards that Tog abuses too, only they can abuse them better.

The 7 cards for 7 mana set up is not the ideal set up - it's the expected set up.  With Brainstorm and the like, if you can't cast AK for four either immediately or shortly after AK for 3, then you are very unlucky or not very good. 

This didn't answer my question.

The problem is for 7 mana your opponent can TFK and activate Mindslaver, or in Gift's case it will be casting Will.  In light of this I don't see how Intuition/AK is the strongest engine because the end result of the first two situations is far stronger than drawing 7.  Even a simple aggro deck that beats down doesn't care how many cards you have in hand when it wins. 

[Smmenen]

With only 1 mindslaver in a deck, its' not likely that you'll have it on your first thirst.

The point of the INtuition/AK engine is that you are likely to have one AK in hand when you cast Intuition.  Then within the space of a turn or two you draw 7 cards and play Yawg Will.  That's why its the best draw engine objectively speaking like Fact and Gush before it (which you already admitted to Ultima in this thread)..  It is the most robust and it gives you two bursts of cards and then gives it to you again when you force will through.

However, INtuition/AK is much weaker in the metagame right now for various reasons that I'm not going to go into right now - but mostly its just becuase Gifts is a superior deck, imo.   That is an oversimplification of what I've been saying before..

But I agree with your conclusion.  I just see no reason to play Tog right now... although I haven't tested Ultima's newest list.

[PemsAura]

I don't mean to break from the train of conversation here but I threw tog together recently after just having played gifts belcher.  Durring my testing of tog I would find myself intuitioning through my library and see yawg and tinker and just think to myself "if only I could grab these right now" but of course I couldn't because the two would be sent straight to my graveyard.  I decided to add recoup to the deck and have had amazing success.  I am able to pull off game breaking plays like intuition for recoup+yawg+tinker and recoup+yawg+ak #4.  With plays like these I think that recoup definately warrants a slot in the deck. 

[Mixing Mike]

A special note of AK-tuition that hasn't been mentioned is how much it thins your deck out. 

Also, IF you end up going all-in on the AK-tuition play and have it fail, then whatever.  It doesn't matter that your all-in play was, FoF, Will, or an AK for 3, a hardcast big brown thing, or whatever; they're all on the same level.  The AK-tuition plan actually thins out your deck, helping you to possibly to topdeck better in the late game.  Can TFK thin out your deck like Intuition can?  Not at all.

Also, let me say one thing about TFK.  It's great and all, I love the card like most people do.  But let's look at the mana investment it takes to Mindslave someone (which seems to be the biggest argument against AK-tuition).  R for Goblin Welder, 2U for TFK, 4 to activate Mindslaver.  Sure, there's tricks and all, but the overall cost is to 'efficiently' Slave someone.  Yes, this can all be spent over the course of many turns, or from a Mana Drain.  Now I want to look at the mana investment of AK-tuition, {U} total.  It's only more than FoF, and we don't contest the power of that card do we?  It can also be paid over multiple turns.  You'll usually get 2-3 cards off a FoF, seeing 5.  With AK-tuition, you take out 3, and draw 3; it's like seeing 6 and getting three.  Is that worth the extra mana and deck space?

Now, I do think the AK-tuition is a bit bulky, and TFKs aren't, which may be the deciding factor, but the AK-tuition does have some potency.  You can contest that Intuition has more flexibility than TFK, setting up Will, guaranteed Welder synergy, etc...  But we know Thirst is just as good, maybe even better with Welders by looking at CS's successes.

Personally, I think the only argument that's worth talking about is if the deck space AK-tuition takes up is worth it.  And even that can be a personal choice, or dependant on the deck.

[Smmenen]

As a practical matter, it all depends upon things that aren't objective but contextual.  So even if Intuition/AK is/was the objectively strongest or most powerful draw engine in Vintage ceteris peribus, it doesn't matter becuase Gifts is simply better.

[And11]

I'm playing this deck with Thirst, cause I'll then have three slots to play around with. Currently they are 2x Engineered Explosives and Vampiric Tutor. I use 1x DSC and 1x Tog as a wincondition and it has worked fine so far. I'm using a full set of Wishes and use Fling in the board to make sure that DSC is a one turn clock and so that 'Tog doesn't have to attack to win. It's a great deck imo...

"The AK-tuition plan actually thins out your deck, helping you to possibly to topdeck better in the late game".

Hmmm, unless you're planning to fetch 3 mana sources with Intuition, this has the exact opposite effect, it seems to me. Maybe you need to explain your self a bit better, at least so a dumb ass dane (like my self) will get it

/9k/Andreas of Denmark

[Luiggi]

Just a quick question, and pardon the ignorance (I've never played Tog in Vintage): why isn't there a Library of Alexandria in the deck, especially if we've got Intuition-->AK to make sure our hand is nice and full? It seems to me that cutting a Wasteland for LoA might be a good idea, or perhaps something else, since Ultima was insisting on the necessity of 5 Strip effects...

Luiggi

[Moxlotus]

Library doesn't produce blue.  The deck needs to put up Mana Drain ASAP in order to accelerate out the Intuition/AK plan.  Also the deck likes to throw down its acceleration in order to cast Wishes and Intuition fast, not sit back and draw a card each turn.  Basically Library is too slow.

"The AK-tuition plan actually thins out your deck, helping you to possibly to topdeck better in the late game".

Hmmm, unless you're planning to fetch 3 mana sources with Intuition, this has the exact opposite effect, it seems to me. Maybe you need to explain your self a bit better, at least so a dumb ass dane (like my self) will get it

It also increases the likely hood of ripping a tutor for Yawg Win.

[xrizzo]

It also increases the likely hood of ripping a tutor for Yawg Win.

True, all the cards in your deck are more likely to be drawn after you remove the Aks.  Unfortunately, this makes your deck less potent overall as the distribution of draw is now MUCH lower.  Because intuition/AK is 7 slots, and you use 4 of them the first time you cast it, the remaining deck has a diluted amount of draw remaining.

This works in Tog because you help your graveyard grow, but it is a drawback of Intuition/AK for all other decks.

[Ultima]

True, all the cards in your deck are more likely to be drawn after you remove the Aks.  Unfortunately, this makes your deck less potent overall as the distribution of draw is now MUCH lower.  Because intuition/AK is 7 slots, and you use 4 of them the first time you cast it, the remaining deck has a diluted amount of draw remaining.

This works in Tog because you help your graveyard grow, but it is a drawback of Intuition/AK for all other decks.

Actually, this is not true.  Intuition/ak makes your deck much more potent overall because it greatly increases the likelyhood of drawing your bombs and answers.  The less crap in the way of you drawing your broken spells the better therefore meaning that resolving intuition/ak makes your deck better overall.

In regards to Library, like it was said, its not blue and the 5th waste is more important.  Plus Boseiju has more application to this metagame then library.

[xrizzo]

Actually, this is not true.  Intuition/ak makes your deck much more potent overall because it greatly increases the likelyhood of drawing your bombs and answers.  The less crap in the way of you drawing your broken spells the better therefore meaning that resolving intuition/ak makes your deck better overall.

Actually it is true.  After you pay 3UU for Intuition/AK and +2 card advantage, you only have a couple draw spells left in your deck: Ancestral, AK, FoF (and tutors which can find these).  The point is, that for the rest of the game, your topdecking will only allow you to draw 3 more cards which are pure draw.  Others, like tutors, Yawg, etc will help you find the cards that draw, but you if your 3 draw spells get countered you are done.

Say you ran 4 Thirst, 3 Scrying in place of the traditional 7 slots for Intuition/AK (I see you are now only running 6, but still).  If you pay 2U for Thirst, you can still net +1 card advantage, but you still have 6 more draw spells in the deck.  (3 Thirst, 3 scrying)  The same story exists with Scrying: pay 3B to draw +2 card advantage, and 6 draw spells remain.  Under both of these options, you still have all the tutors and Yawg available to additionally help your draw, but you didn't have to dump 2 Thirsts and a scrying into your yard just to use 1 Thirst.  (as with AK)

If you don't believe this, then run a little monte carlo simulation to prove it to yourself.

[shade88]

While this is probably known by most, ill just bring it up since it hasn't been said. If you have an active tog, and you cast gifts ungiven before damagae for time walk, yawgmoth's will, ancestral recall, and gush it is an autowin. they can give you the will or time walk and expect to lose next turn, or they can give you gush and recall which net a total of +13/+13 to the tog for only 5 mana, and you just have to discard 4 cards from there, or 3 with 3 in the grave etc., which isn't all that difficult. Even though gifts is 1 mana more than intuition, it functions as an auto win under an attacking tog, which sets up crazy gifts configurations. Just my $0.02.

While gifts obviously won't be cast behind an attacking tog all the time, it does provide huge gifts leverage, almost like running recoup without having the red

[cosineme]

Or, you could spend 4 mana and just win...cunning wish berserk?

If you are able to resolve a gifts, much like an intuition, you are already in a strong position to win. Successfully casting Yawg Will is also obviously a win as well.