U/G Madness, playable or no?

[StarkTheBloody]

I had played unpowered U/G madness alot when it got popular a while back, but had to stop because of real life issuses. Now i am ready to begin trying to play the format again and have taken a look at my deck. While looking at it, I said to myself "This wasent very playable to begin with, i wonder if it is now" so i ask you to answer a few questions.

A) Is U/G madness something that can be improved to be playable, or is it something that should be scraped and
B) If it is still at least somewhat playable, what should be done to my build to improve on it.

Decklist:
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Aquamoeba
2 Wonder

2 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
1 Gush
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Brainstorm

4 Tropical Island
4 Island
4 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
1 Stripmine
4 Wasteland
1 Sol Ring
3 Null Rod
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

SB
2 Back to Basics
1 Null Rod
2 Energy Flux
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Naturalize
3 Stifle
3 Oxidize

Any advice given would be appriciated. Thank in advance!

[warble]

Not playable.  Combo decks roll you like a burrito in california.  Any deck with a bomb just annihilates you.  And once tinker->dsc happens you just lose.  LOSE I tell you.  Your clock is slow.  Maybe try some maindeck bounce to keep yourself okay, because unless you disrupt you're not going to have enough time to get your beats in.  Lots of people try Anger to accelerate the clock, that is feasible but U/G doesn't have anger, so it's too slow.

Also, Bazaar is a good discard outlet, but it looks like you're going disruption with waste+strip instead.  That just slows your clock down even more.  Tinker->dsc dude.  PWNAGE.  Oh yeah and tendrils does a similar pwnage thingy.  You can't get an aquamoeba doing his thing with mana for circular logic before most tendrils variants set up, even if you can get maybe a force by the time they go off it won't matter.

[Pitlord]

I wouldn't say that U/G madness is unplayable, but in the form this specific list probably is. For an idea of something that plays like U/G madness, try playing Jacob Orlove's awesome deck, WTF. It is a breed of aggro-control deck, aka fish, that plays a few of the madness engine cards for beats, and then a standard fish disruption package.

The reaosn I say this is because aggro in vintage has to either be A. Balls to the wall, full on total aggro i.e Food chain goblins, or B. Aggro-control, well tuned, with lots of meta hate. WTF falls into the catagory B is can be either great or a total flop, depending what you are playing against.

[Mantis]

Let's be honest, it will never be top tier, nor will your chances of winning a SCG tournament with Madness be high. However, I do think Madness can be viable and tweaked into beating Fish, Stax and can have a decent matchup to Drain.

A lot of development has be done by Team Reflection members in the past. The primer can be found here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18263.0

Quote from this article:

Madness has an even-to-favorable matchups against most control decks because LED didn't play as large a role against control as it did against other archetypes, and because Bazaar of Baghdad breaks the game wide open by beating them at their own game "card advantage" if left unchecked.

Much has changed since the primer was written but Madness can be very explosive. Another example here:

A list I found at Apprentice (in the Vintage standard decks), it's made by plowerfower don't ask me who that is I have no idea.

//NAME: Untitled Deck
        1 Strip Mine
        2 Riftstone Portal
        1 Bayou
        1 Underground Sea
        2 Tropical Island
        1 Volcanic Island
        3 Taiga
        3 Wooded Foothills
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        4 Arrogant Wurm
        1 Anger
        4 Wild Mongrel
        4 Basking Rootwalla
        1 Darksteel Colossus
        1 Windfall
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Memory Jar
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Lion's Eye Diamond
        1 Time Walk
        1 Mox Diamond
        1 Tinker
        1 Timetwister
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        3 Roar of the Wurm
        4 Chains of Mephistopheles
        3 Deep Analysis
//  Sideboard:
SB:  4 Gilded Drake
SB:  3 Chill
SB:  4 Arcane Laboratory
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast

This deck is so friggin' explosive it's unbelievable. Chains of Mephistopheles also seems to be a very effective card as it gives you another discard outlet while your opponent is going to suffer big time from it.

One thing, a common misconception but Madness is definitely NOT a budget deck. You need the Bazaars and Moxen in order to be explosive. Time Walk and Ancestral also add soo much to this deck.

[frolll]

Madness is playable the whole 2 ways described before for Aggro in Vintage. Since the meta isn't the same in Europe, and Orlove's insane doings with WTF, I'd rather suggest that Madness, in order to be viable, could take the full aggro way, in a GUR/GRu/RGu version that can put a much faster clock on opponent without simply losing to tinker-->DSC.

Such a deck must pack a full set of Tempers and maybe 3 Arrogant and 3 Roar md... along with all the mana acceleration that does exist and Anger, I think the deck could have some explosiveness to kill fast, and well. The fact that madness is uncounterable (yet it could be stifled...) and the relative size of your threat (6/6) is great, alongside with md null rod/bounces and it could be a viable choice, if you're not planning to make top8... Wonder also helps against Oath, since your tokens could now block and actually KILL Akroma, if Razia isn't around.
BTW, the more controllish version must play with bounces md, and 4 fow 4 logic are just a bit under average as disruption, so I love the tech of Hidden Gibbons, but it depends a lot about your own meta. MD Stifle(s)-Midi(s)-Fire/Ice also are solid choices, but this deck just lose to WTF cause of Vial, and River Boa (never laughs at this Boa, is gonna bite you 'till death!)


Null Rod md are good, but maybe Needle too, and unpowered versions must play with 4 CotV...


But, even if I deeply love this deck, I do not think it is still a good tournament option... It's viable, but as Tiers 3...
Not to mention the stax matchup... You just lose: Cow+Wasteland kills.


The chains in madness are somewhat creepy.
I think the best place for black isn't in madness, sorry...

[StarkTheBloody]

Hmm, seems like the general concensus is "No." Thanks for all the imput guys, I'll try a total revamp/remake of the way the deck will/should be played and try and post that list and see what you think. Thanks for all the imput guys.

[Sgt. Pepper]

You should check out the following list:

Mox Emerald Tournament: Raymond Wai - 3rd
Prize: $70

Maindeck:
3 Forest
3 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Skyshroud Elite
2 Stifle
2 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

Sideboard:
4 Root Maze
3 Naturalize
3 Pithing Needle
3 Gilded Drake
2 Psionic Blast

There are some things that seem odd/bad (only 3 Chalice, Skyshroud Elite, Psionic Blast, Gilded Drake), but the deck did make top 8. It's more fish then madness though, but imo thats the only way this type of deck will still be viable.

[zeus-online]

I would think the reason for 3 chalices is that the chance of getting one in your start hand dosnt decrease by a whole lot from lowering the number from 4 to 3.....and i dont think you want to draw a second...

It seems to me like the list is made to fight oath....waterfront bouncer and gilded drake are pretty much only good against oath!

Cant explain either skyshroud elite or Psionic blast though?

Skyshroud elites seems inferior to, well just about anything
...And psionic blast is a bad way to deal with welder, dosnt do jack against DSC....maybe against workshop aggro? Or serendib efreets/Old men....?

/Zeus

[AmbivalentDuck]

Combo decks roll you like a burrito in california.

Root Maze rolls combo like a chalupa in Florida.

Any deck with a bomb just annihilates you.  And once tinker->dsc happens you just lose.  LOSE I tell you.  Your clock is slow.  Maybe try some maindeck bounce to keep yourself okay, because unless you disrupt you're not going to have enough time to get your beats in.  Lots of people try Anger to accelerate the clock, that is feasible but U/G doesn't have anger, so it's too slow.

Now, that part's mostly right.  It's worth pointing out that Anger isn't difficult to support. [wishful thinking] Furthermore, Zodiac Dragon + Wild Mongrel equals game.[/wishful thinking] 

The problem is that aggro really isn't that good.  Disruption is good.  Winning quickly is good.  The problem is that unless aggro entails winning quickly (ala Colossus) or disruption (ala Meddling Mage and co), aggro isn't good.  Arrogant wurm would have to be a 7/7 (kill a turn earlier) to be really relevant.  Wonder is almost completely irrelevant because it won't matter 99% of the time.  Realize that even Illusionary Mask which can make 3-mana 12/12s sees little play.

EDIT:  Yes, I know the errata on Zodiac Dragon.  Note the tags.

[Nastaboi]

I would think the reason for 3 chalices is that the chance of getting one in your start hand dosnt decrease by a whole lot from lowering the number from 4 to 3.....and i dont think you want to draw a second...

Changes of drawing four-of in opening hand is ~39,9%. Changes of drawing three-of is ~31,5%. The change of getting one in opening hand decreases 8,5 percentage units or 21%. I think it is significant.

[wishful thinking] Furthermore, Zodiac Dragon + Wild Mongrel equals game.[/wishful thinking]

I hope that was meant to be a joke. Please check the errata of Zodiac Dragon.

[+t]

For what its worth, I've been playing around with UG Madness.  I've made several changes:

1) Removal of Circular Logic: This card just sucks in the current meta.  I simply can't stand it in the maindeck.  It doesn't come online until turns 2-3, and even then it revolves around having a discard outlet.  In essence, its far too situational in that it gives you a counter that is decent once you have stabilized, something that isn't very good due to the fact that many decks will be able to combo out/gain enough advantage to effectively put them far enough ahead before this even comes down.

2) Addition of White: This opens up so many decent card choices.  MD Stp helps against Colossus and other annoying creatures, Seal is all around decent utility.  White also allows you to effectively utilize Ray of Revelation, which means that your game v.s. Oath postboard is pretty good.

3) Removal of Arrogant Wurm: With the addition of white, this had to go.  A cc of 1GG is not ideal.  In their place, I've added 2 Roar of the Wurm and Null Rods 1 and 2. My Mistake

I'm not going to post a list as I don't claim to have anything close to an optimal build, but I'm curious as to what people think about adding White to the deck in order to improve it.

[totnak]

just asking.... if my opponent plays a balance...  the case is that he has fewer cards in hands and zero creatures..... and i also have zero creatures in play and two basking rotwallas... if i have to discard the basking rotwallas because of balance will they be sacrificed or not...  thanks so much.....

[Nastaboi]

@+t:

I can agree with cutting Logic and adding white. I have now Icluded white in all my possible fish builds. However, madnessing out an Arrogant Wurm costs 2G and not 1GG. It might be 3GG to hardcast, but Roar is 6G and far more unlike to reach. So Arrogant's CC is always easier to get.

@totnak:

Balance resolves. During its resolution you discard two Rootwallas removing them from the game. Then you play them with their madness cost. The Balance has already resolved, and you have to sacrifice nothing.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

UG Madness, I have started to play right when torment came out and am still playing the deck in various configurations. In all those years I have come to some conclusions:
-the wurms (arrogant, roar) really suck badly. This is the case, plain and simple. you know what happens if you play a roar against something with UU open? He will hardcast darksteel the next turn (not really but you get the point: mana drain --> gg) arrogant can be cute sometimes, but it makes you very reliant on discard outlets.
On top of that, roar will either be too slow (4 mana), countered (as mentioned above), or bounced into nothingness.
-circular logic is no good. it won't be online until turn 3 for being a hard counter for U.
-I strongly advise to take this deck in a WTF direction
-wild mongrel is the balls.
-so is waterfront bouncer (esp. together with aether vial). Only to be played if oath is a contender
-with vial, spiketails are cool. take them out game two though, the opponent will always leave (1) open and think you got one of them. Don't play them if you choose to go without vials.
- if you play in a powered meta (lots of moxen), go for chalice main.
-stifle IS good.
jitte rocks the house entirely. with jitte, even a spiketail hatchling becomes stronger than an arrogant wurm.

As reference, here is the deck I played a couple of weeks ago in a local tourney (some 49 players, 5 proxy, about 50% full powered) and managed to place 2nd (three intuitions thank you)
http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=4510

As a note:
If lots of jewellery is prevalent, 4 chalice main are must.
the deck isn't optimal. (e.g. no time walk)