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Author Topic: ICBM Oath splits for a second Mox in as many weeks  (Read 6443 times)
AngryPheldagrif
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« on: May 14, 2006, 12:00:39 am »

Tournament was held at Game Universe in Milwaukee, and only 21 people showed up because GWS decided against coming for some reason. First place was a decent condition Unlimited Mox Jet with store credit through 4th place. Metagame was (according to notes):
5 Fish
4 Oath
3 Gifts
3 Slaver
3 Storm Combo (IT, GrimLong, other thing)
2 Stax
1 Something

All fully powered and highly competitive with ICBM in full representation.

T8 was (though it will probably go up later)
Dan Carp (ICBM Oath)
Rafe Colton (Other storm combo)
Mike Solymossy (Slaver)
Ryan Spindler (IT)
Lloyd (name) (Meandeck Gifts)
Owen Turtenwald (UW Fish)
Tommy Kolowith (Slaver)
Chris Nighbor (I think Slaver, not sure)

Dan defeated Mike
Tommy defeated Rafe
Chris defeated Ryan
Owen defeated Lloyd

Dan defeated Owen
Tommy defeated Chris

Dan and Tommy split, Tommy won the title in Rock/Paper/Scissors

I played ICBM Oath, a deck I originally built back last year as an alternative to GWS Oath. The deck sacrificed some measure of speed and tempo in exchange for a devastating control package and the ability to utterly annihilate storm combo, a generally unfavorable matchup for GWS Oath. Though my first couple appearances with it at SCG ended 17th and 18th places, my brother T8ed at SCG: Chicago and won several local tournaments. I recently picked the deck up again and split a Sapphire at the College of Dupre last week with the deck. For this week I played a nearly identical list except I moved the Pithing Needles to the maindeck to swap for the Null Rods in anticipation of a heavier Fish and Oath hate in general metagame. I was, for once, fairly correct, not that that matters.

Quote
ICBM Oath: Midwest redux
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Pithing Needle
4 Oath Of Druids
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rushing River
3 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Akroma, Angel Of Wrath
1 Razia, Boros Archangel
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Time Walk
2 Island
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Flooded Strand
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Null Rod
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Pristine Angel
2 Energy Flux
1 Tinker
2 Massacre
1 Balance
1 Darkblast
2 Spawning Pit (ignore these, they're just placeholders that actually suck)
1 Duress
1 Oxidize

Round 1: Jay with Control Slaver
Game 1: He gets the Welder and I Needle it. Oath comes down imminently which beats Slaver hard.

Game 2: He manages to get me to 11 with tokens and such, but inevitably I win. Nothing special about this at all. Slaver just doesn't beat Oath.

1-0, 2-0

Round 2: Owen with UW Fish (AKA Oath hate.dec)
I've faced him before and know his deck fairly well. I have never seen more Oath hate in my life.
Game 1: I get lucky and get the drop on him with Oath into Akroma (bounced) and Razia which takes him to zero.

Game 2: I get Oath to stick but he Swords my Angel and Disenchants the Oath. Beatdown commences, etc.

Game 3: This one takes awhile since I keep Oath around but start running out of creatures and deck. It basically comes down to this: I have 2 cards left in deck and Pristine Angel on the board. He has Waterfront Bouncer, an empty hand, and 5 life. Since he has no choice but to attempt to bounce it in response to each attack, I have the kill locked up since I will protect it with Brainstorm for the first swing and Thirst for Knowledge with Mana Drain to prevent decking for the second. I will win with zero cards in hand and deck. However first I have to untap it for the turn. I tap Orchard and a Mox to cast my second Oath. With no creatures left in library (all players know this) and an Oath already on the board, Blessing gone, and no possible purpose in the game of Magic except to untap Pristine. I go through the motions and apparently screw something up between casting, untapping, and passing although I say quite clearly 'wait' in the same breath and action to make sure. The guy judging (at a 21 person unsanctioned Vintage) says that I do not get to untap. I argue that A) my intent is utterly obvious since that is the only reason to cast Oath and B ) I said 'wait' in the same stream with the other statement and thus was not in fact passing anything. We had precedent for this, since a nearly identical situation arose at SCG Richmond with my brother playing Oath, and the head judge (at REL 3 and an experienced Vintage judge) stated that it was allowable on basis of intent and that as part of a single stream of thought allowed for him to rewind ever-so-slightly. After explaining all this to the current judge, he disallowed it anyways. Pristine Angel proceeded to be bounced and I of course lost. This angers me.

1-1, 3-2

Round 3: Lloyd with Meandeck Gifts
Game 1: I keep a steady hand while he mulls to 5. I get the first turn Oath without an Orchard and have a solid control hand. My next seven draws include both Angels, Blessing, both Needles (utterly useless) and several land. It takes slightly over half an hour for him to find an answer to my Chalices, but I draw but a single Brainstorm and he bounces the Angel I find, eventually comboing me out.

Game 2: Again he mulls to 5, but this time I thrash him. I Duress to see he is holding a virtual god hand of Academy, Will, Fetchland, Lotus Petal, and something else, but without Lotus Petal he is stuck in draw-go for a couple turns and I easily reduce him to zero.

Game 3: We look to be fine for time despite the lengthy first game, but soon stall out. His hand keeps getting better, but he is forced to use his first Gifts to find mana and can't assemble a steady kill. He gets me to 7 with the tokens on turn 2 of turns and casts a juicy Yawg Will. I extend my hand but it is just to check his yard rather than the concession he thought. Sure enough he has no tutors and thus is forced to play a bunch of draw spells digging for his Tendrils. He finds plenty of gas but can't dig it up without running out of mana. I Waste his land on turn 3 and he can't do much more than swing for 2 and draw the following turn.

1-1-1, 4-3-1


Round 4: Brian with UR Fish (featuring a lot less Oath hate than UW luckily!)
Game 1: Not too exciting, he mulls and gets trampled.

Game 2: Grim Lavamancer, Factory, Standstill, etc are great cards, just not against Oath of Druids and fat Angels. Again, not so exciting.

2-1-1, 6-3-1

Round 5: Gregg with Slaver (with a good deal of hate including the intriguing yet painful Blood Moon)
Game 1: We both play fairly average hands to their fairly average conclusion: Oath simply trumped the shit out of Slaver. Bounce spells buy but single turns and I play plenty of Brainstorms and Thirsts to come back.

Game 2: We both mull, but he is forced to keep a hand of 3 Duals/Fetches, Crucible, Fact or Fiction, and Blood Moon. It takes me a couple turns to get everything together but he has little defense against it after I Duress the Moon. The highlight was definitely when I used Null Rod to neutralize the otherwise Indestructible Darksteel Citadel.

3-1-1, 8-3-1

Since the guy who beat me and the guy I drew against are both in the T8 my breakers are top of the 10 pointers and I enter as third seed.

Quarterfinals: Soly with Control Slaver featuring moderate Oath hate including maindeck Duplicant

Game 1: My start is solid and I get the Oath online by turn 2, but he manages to tutor up Tinker to Duplicate Razia. This wouldn't be a problem except I'd inevitably topdecked Akroma after getting Razia. It's a quick clock and I have useless counters in my hand rather than Brainstorms or Rushing River.

Game 2: I lock him under Null Rod and Chalice for 0 and utterly eviscerate his otherwise incredible hand (Lotus, Will, etc). Oath gets out and ends things.

Game 3: I keep a basically hilarious (in a good and bad way) hand of Oath, 2x Force, Ancestral, blue card, Strip Mine, something else. Like a champ I rip the blue mana on the second draw and go nuts. He gets the Welder but I shut down Thirst before I shut down Welder. Oath puts him on a fast clock and his last turn is hardcasting Slaver at 1 life, tapping out. I have Oxidize anyways. He looks at his next card, sees his Ensnaring Bridge (with Drain backup) and promptly tears the 7th edition Bridge to pieces. I still would most likely have won but I can understand the frustration. He was rather upset but as I pointed out, he might have won if he'd gotten one more turn, but this is T1. There's no such thing as a free turn.

4-1-1, 10-4-1

Semifinals: Owen with UW Fish, again.
When I say this deck has Oath hate, I really mean it. I don't mean your run-of-the-mill hate, I mean holy balls it's half the bloody deck Oath hate. For reference, post-board, he had (in multiple copies of each): Disenchant, Annul, Swords to Plowshares, Stormscape Apprentice, Gilded Drake, Waterfront Bouncer, and Meddling Mage. It was probably horrible horrible overkill, but by God it was a freaking nightmare.

Game 1: Nothing fancy. I mull to 6 and fizzle against Meddling Mage and Voidmage Prodigy.

Game 2: Here is where the fun starts. For reference, against all that obscene hate, I get to add the Massacres, Balance, Darkblast, and the extra creatures. I may never know why but he keeps a no land hand with Lotus, Force plus blue card, and a bunch of hate. I get the pressure on and his lonely Lotus doesn't help him. He has precious little mana to do anything relevant and I use a careful Wasteland to keep it that way. I end up winning by hardcasting Pristine Angel off Lotus and beating for 5 turns with multispell backup.

Game 3: Ahh the fun starts. We both play a lot of draw go but I take advantage of the fact that pretty much all his hate is reactive and otherwise it's just a bunch of useless 1/1s. I Massacre to keep things even (this card is basically the doom of UW Fish. The deck just crumples against it) and get Oath going though I draw Blessing. Razia and Darksteel Colossus absorb 3 Swords (1 countered) to leave his hand pretty bare, and Akroma takes it all with counter backup and a precariously small library. Pristine was also in hand with the mana to hardcast it.

5-1-1, 12-5-1

Finals: Tommy with Slaver

I draw with the teammate and end up with the Jet after settling an eighty dollar debt that he owed me from splitting another Mox almost a year ago. This makes 4 win/splits in less than 2 months for me with 2 each for AngryPheldaGifts and now ICBM Oath. Overall the deck was extremely powerful despite some of the worst draws I've seen in a long time. I drew so many Angels that I was hardly kidding about adding in Lat Nam's Legacy by the end of the tournament. The mulligans were heavy too, but I think that is more a reflection of the deck's power than anything else. I threw back hands a lot of people would keep in a second because I knew the deck would give me better and it did.

As for the list itself, the Pithing Needles were very solid, though Null Rod would probably have been just as good or a bit better. It was a good metagame call. The only card I was actually dissatisfied with was Mystical Tutor which may surprise some people. I honestly think the card has no place in Oath. Realistically, you lack the two best targets, Tinker and YawgWill, getting Recall is hardly optimal in a deck not based on card advantage, and Time Walk is solid but often a win-more case. Overall the card is just mediocre and a waste of space. I boarded it out in nearly every game and was happy to see it go.

Props:
Oath for being easily the most underrated deck in the format right now. People who think it's too easy to hate or doesn't take skill to pilot are dead wrong. Running this deck for the last two weeks was harder than Gifts, Gilded Claw, Slaver, Draw-7, or virtually anything else I've ever played. And trust me, I've played almost everything.

My teammates for once again being 3 of the top 4 and 2 of the top 2. We, uh, rock?

Brainstorm for being the reason Oath is good. I wasn't kidding when I said that if someone let me cut Ancestral for a 5th Brainstorm I'd be heavily tempted.

Simic Sky Swallower. Even Owen basically admitted that the card destroys him. It is infinitely better than Pristine Angel and will make Oath that much harder to hate. The card is exactly what the doctor ordered for this deck, especially with Mana Drain to hardcast it out. Thank you Wizards.

Pristine Angel for being adequate if uninspiring. Slow and clumsy, it still gets the job done.

Food, because it all rocked my empty stomach.

Moxen for letting me win them week after week. I've got 3 now from this winning spree and may actually own the lion's share of a set of power by GenCon to supplement what I can borrow.

Control Slaver. Say whatever you want, but the deck seriously just doesn't beat Oath. It's ridiculous how many bad hands and horrible draws still win because Slaver just flails like a beached whale until I finally Angel it out of its misery. I like having a virtual bye matchup.

Myself for not screwing up my decklist this week and not going into the T8 with a gameloss!

Slops:

That one ruling in round 2. Even if I screwed up the timing a bit, blatantly obvious intent should count for a lot at such a low level event in a vague situation. I hate losing to stupid things like that even if I should have been more careful.

Myself for screwing that one up. I am just as much to blame and I hate that I make so many more mistakes with Oath than with other things. Just goes to show you how difficult the deck is to play.

The prize structure for sucking. I can understand with the low turnout, but at least throw the top 8 a couple packs. We actually had to split up the second place store credit prize just so 3rd and 4th got anything.
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Moxlotus
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2006, 12:23:34 am »

Yea, I wasn't there because neither Endress nor Fisher got the day off work despite each of them requesting it.  Sorry, but I just moved home yesterday and couldn't justify driving 3.5 hours by myself to and from the tournament, even though it was my old mox and it was in beautiful condition (if it was the one I sold).  I expect to incur the wrath of Rhyno in our message boards.  Was Becker there?  Congrats on winnning more power with green enchantments.  It would have been different if I was there obv.

21?  That's still weird, considering the last one got like 40something.

Still looks like an extremely balanced metagame.

Dan-can you get through a tournament without majorly screwing something up and costing yourself a game loss?

Quote
Control Slaver. Say whatever you want, but the deck seriously just doesn't beat Oath. It's ridiculous how many bad hands and horrible draws still win because Slaver just flails like a beached whale until I finally Angel it out of its misery. I like having a virtual bye matchup.

Um, duh?

Barring unreasonable circumstances, we should be at pastimes on the 27th.  I should if I can finagle my way out of work & girlfriend.
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2006, 12:35:27 am »

Can I avoid throwing games? Apparently not. Hell, apparently it helps me win. This is another reason Simic Sky Swallower will be such a beast. NO MORE WORRYING ABOUT UNTAPPING.

No, Becker didn't come. I was expecting at least someone from your crew but I understand if everyone was busy. I'm not even sure I'm coming to the next Pastimes Mox unless we can expect a decent attendance and a decent prize. I'm sick to death of sandpapered Moxen. You'd think with power prices as low as they are they could furnish somewhat better prizes.

With your luck, you'd have faced Owen first round and discovered the joy of 20+ hate cards :lol:

*shudders*
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2006, 06:45:18 pm »

Dan the lucksack extrodinare strikes again!
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2006, 07:27:46 pm »

Dan the lucksack extrodinare strikes again!

Cut the bullshit. I mulliganed repeatedly, has my only match loss decided by a judge decision, had one Orchard, Mox, Oath the entire tournament (which got countered), and got to face the same Fish deck twice which played more hate than any I've ever faced in my life.

If anything, I was lucky that people are still playing Control Slaver so I can have a bye match.
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2006, 07:52:30 pm »

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Game 3: This one takes awhile since I keep Oath around but start running out of creatures and deck. It basically comes down to this: I have 2 cards left in deck and Pristine Angel on the board. He has Waterfront Bouncer, an empty hand, and 5 life. Since he has no choice but to attempt to bounce it in response to each attack, I have the kill locked up since I will protect it with Brainstorm for the first swing and Thirst for Knowledge with Mana Drain to prevent decking for the second. I will win with zero cards in hand and deck. However first I have to untap it for the turn. I tap Orchard and a Mox to cast my second Oath. With no creatures left in library (all players know this) and an Oath already on the board, Blessing gone, and no possible purpose in the game of Magic except to untap Pristine. I go through the motions and apparently screw something up between casting, untapping, and passing although I say quite clearly 'wait' in the same breath and action to make sure. The guy judging (at a 21 person unsanctioned Vintage) says that I do not get to untap. I argue that A) my intent is utterly obvious since that is the only reason to cast Oath and B ) I said 'wait' in the same stream with the other statement and thus was not in fact passing anything. We had precedent for this, since a nearly identical situation arose at SCG Richmond with my brother playing Oath, and the head judge (at REL 3 and an experienced Vintage judge) stated that it was allowable on basis of intent and that as part of a single stream of thought allowed for him to rewind ever-so-slightly. After explaining all this to the current judge, he disallowed it anyways. Pristine Angel proceeded to be bounced and I of course lost. This angers me.

I'm very confused by this quote.  Casting brainstorm with 2 cards left in your deck kills you.  I also do not understand the casting oath to untap the angel.  A clearer explaination would be great. 
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2006, 08:05:00 pm »

I'm also quite confused. I assume you had a second counter for the brainstorm (you mention one for Thirst), but why did you need to cast Oath to untap the angel?
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2006, 09:08:23 pm »

D'oh! I Forgot to mention the Chalice at 1.

It was an incredibly complex situation and I cannot quite remember it perfectly right now, but what it basically boiled down to was that I cast Oath to untap Pristine Angel so he wouldn't untap and bounce it. All I can think of was that one of the pieces was the last 2 cards in my deck which I had gone through my graveyard and knew precisely. I know for a fact that I had calculated out exactly enough spell space to win the game.
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2006, 10:39:01 pm »

Congrats Dan. Joe, Warren and I couldn't make it for various reasons. Josh and Rich had some yu-gay-oh thing, but we'll all be at Pastimes for the 27th. If you guys show up along with the GWS players then the turnout will be pretty good. Hopefully the prize structure will be good, complete with not-sandpapered power.

I'm playing Slaver again, but I'm going with a new list that doesn't auto lose to Oath. I'd change decks, but I don't have time to pick up the peices yet. See you guys there.
-AJ
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2006, 08:26:32 pm »

im going to have to say dan that control slaver is not as much of a buy as you may think. in the last two tournaments i have played 4 oath decks and not lost a single game. Also when i played your brother at your house after the chicago tourney i won 4 straight 2 or 3 of which were sideboarded games. i think the match can be a by though if you are facing a slaver player not prepared for the match or doesnt know how to play against oath.
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2006, 09:45:48 pm »

I would actually say that your wins come because the Oath players you faced do not understand how to beat Control Slaver as thoroughly as needed. It's the classic hackers versus security argument, but when both players are equally skilled at the match and prepare, the Slaver player will be easily trounced.

Control Slaver keeps coming up with creative ways not to get crushed. I make sure I don't fall behind and I keep on crushing. Ben was unprepared for what you had. There is no correct way to play against an expert Oath player because they will simply foil every single thing you can possibly do. I know the lists. There is no reason for Oath to lose to Slaver barring an extremely horrible draw, which has happened before.
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2006, 09:52:50 am »

I would actually say that your wins come because the Oath players you faced do not understand how to beat Control Slaver as thoroughly as needed. It's the classic hackers versus security argument, but when both players are equally skilled at the match and prepare, the Slaver player will be easily trounced.

Control Slaver keeps coming up with creative ways not to get crushed. I make sure I don't fall behind and I keep on crushing. Ben was unprepared for what you had. There is no correct way to play against an expert Oath player because they will simply foil every single thing you can possibly do. I know the lists. There is no reason for Oath to lose to Slaver barring an extremely horrible draw, which has happened before.

You make me want to play Oath, Dan.  I hate Slaver with a passion.  Congrats, btw.
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2006, 10:00:29 am »


You make me want to play Oath, Dan.  I hate Slaver with a passion.  Congrats, btw.

Try it sometime.  The matchup is obscenely in Oath's favor; whenever I run into Slaver in a tournament, I view it as a bye.  I can keep awful hands, virtually ignore their deck, and do whatever--it doesn't matter.  One time vs Slaver I kept a hand that was Vampiric, Demonic, Waste, Strip, Orchard, and 2 other lands. I just Vamped for the Oath, played it, and blew up a few lands so he couldn't get to 6 mana to hardcast Slaver.
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2006, 11:55:09 am »

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I would actually say that your wins come because the Oath players you faced do not understand how to beat Control Slaver as thoroughly as needed. It's the classic hackers versus security argument, but when both players are equally skilled at the match and prepare, the Slaver player will be easily trounced.

You know what you should do Dan, since you and your brother are arguably the most experienced with Oath (or at least the version which to me looks to be the most solid and consistent with what an Oath deck wants to do), you (both) should start up a thread in the open forum about some of the subtleties and difficult plays you are faced with, much the same way that Smmenen does for some of his creations in his SCG articles. I for one am still puzzled about the Oath versus Slaver match-up, and the fact that it generates some wildly different opinions regarding which deck has the better odds. You claim that Oath players "do not understand how to beat CS as thoroughly as needed". What are they missing? How could they improve? What are some common play errors? I think it could be a very interesting article/thread, and really put to rest the notion that Oath is a very easy deck to pilot.
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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2006, 12:02:23 pm »

It would be sweet if the carp brothers would move to CT and put a beating on CS around these parts.  I could never personally play oath, because of all the card flipping.  But, some of the guys that used to play oath all the time just sort of disappeared.  That deck looks super solid, and I'm glad I don't have to play against it every weekend.
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2006, 12:17:41 pm »

We build ICBM Oath to trounce Slaver hardcore.... and that's what it does =-)
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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2006, 12:53:36 pm »

You know what you should do Dan, since you and your brother are arguably the most experienced with Oath (or at least the version which to me looks to be the most solid and consistent with what an Oath deck wants to do), you (both) should start up a thread in the open forum about some of the subtleties and difficult plays you are faced with, much the same way that Smmenen does for some of his creations in his SCG articles. I for one am still puzzled about the Oath versus Slaver match-up, and the fact that it generates some wildly different opinions regarding which deck has the better odds. You claim that Oath players "do not understand how to beat CS as thoroughly as needed". What are they missing? How could they improve? What are some common play errors? I think it could be a very interesting article/thread, and really put to rest the notion that Oath is a very easy deck to pilot.

Eh, I suppose we might, but here's a summary:

Oath and Slaver are very similar in many respects.  We both have three-color manabases (UBR vs UBG) that are comprised of duals, fetches, and basics.  We both run the basic blue control package of Drains, Forces, and Brainstorms, and we both run Thirsts.  We both run a lot of the same brokenness: Demonic, Mystical, Vampiric, Recall, Walk. 

However, the differences between Oath and Slaver are almost all in Oath's favor.  Slaver runs more artifact mana: Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and often Mana Vault.  Slaver runs Welders, Mox Monkeys, and a few large artifacts (Slaver and usually some combination of Pentavus/DSC/Plats/Triskelion/Duplicant).  Slaver runs a few more broken cards (YawgWill, FoF, Gifts, Tinker). Oh, and bear in mind that I KNOW that not all Slavers run these exact cards; this is just a generalization.

Oath runs Oaths, Orchards, Chalices, Null Rods, Duresses, and of course the Angels.  This is where the fun begins.

Welder and Mox Monkey are good vs other decks, but bad vs Oath, because they trigger Oath and because they do NOTHING on their own except beat for 1.

The extra brokenness of YawgWill and Tinker are hampered vs Oath because we not only run more control than Slaver, but Chalice and Null Rod make Will and Tinker more difficult to work with.  Finally, Oath puts enough pressure on Slaver that Will and Tinker are often not enough to survive.

The big artifacts are largely useless vs Oath.  Slaver will rarely end up working, due to Oath's control aiming at the Thirsts, Chalice at 0, and Null Rod.  Even if it does, Oath can shrug off a Slaving better than most Type 1 decks, as it has no cards that auto-lose (such as Bargain, Necro, Consultation) and none that are effective auto-losses (YawgWill, Tendrils, Tormod's Crypt, Psychatog).  Duplicant is obviously a threat, if it's even in the maindeck, but unless it can be repeatedly recurred via Welder, the Oath player can usually just win before it hits play, or just win with one Angel.  Vigilance is such a wonderful thing.  Triskelion is largely irrelevant, especially with Null Rod out.  Platinum Angel can be a problem, assuming the Slaver player actually runs it, but even then, there's the one Rushing River, and since Plats can't afford to attack into an Angel, you can just smack the Slaver player to 0, then achieve board control and Rushing River it.  You have infinite Rushing Rivers if you're recurring Blessing via Oath, so you don't need to worry about losing a counter-war, since Slaver's counters just deplete, whereas yours can recur.  Darksteel is raceable more easily than you'd think, and again, Rushing River does wonders.

Oath's main differences are in two parts: the control, and the win conditions.  Control can go first.

Oath runs the same counter package of 4 FoW and 4 Drain, but it also runs cards that beat the shit out of Slaver.  Null Rod is virtually game over.  Chalice at 0 can easily cut off Welder, and Chalice at 1 stops Welder, Mox Monkey, Brainstorm, and a half-dozen other useful cards.  Don't forget a Drained-into Chalice at 3, which can wreck the Slaver player's plans of Thirsting something good into the yard, or going broken with Tinker or Will.  Oath's strips can easily keep the Slaver player off Drain mana, or can keep them color-screwed so as to shut down YawgWill or Demonic.  Tolarian will also likely spend one turn active, unless of course it's already useless thanks to Chalice at 0.

As for win conditions, Slaver's win is either hardcasting fat artifacts or Welding them in.  Hardcasting is difficult, because Null Rod and Chalice will cut Slaver's artifact acceleration off, while Oath's counterbase and Duresses will make it hard to resolve anything good.  Welding presents difficulties as well, since Chalice at 0 cuts off most of Slaver's artifact mana, and Chalices at 0 and 1 will stop the Slaver player from playing Welder.  If a Welder does resolve, which is fairly often, since it's usually not a threat, the Oath player can easily cut off Welder via stopping the Thirsts, and can also just play Oath and win before the Welder can find anything to weld in.  And, of course, Null Rod means that Slaver won't do anything anyway.

Oath, on the other hand, has an easy win condition.  We just resolve an Oath and win at our leisure.  Slaver has what, one bounce spell that can hit an enchantment?  Maybe two max.  Generally Oath will get active quickly, either via an Orchard (which is uncounterable) or a Mox Monkey or Welder that the Slaver player has already played.  Once Oath is going, generally it will kill within two turns, sometimes even killing in one turn thanks to Time Walk.  It's not that difficult to Drain a Welder or even a Thirst into an Oath, Chalice at 1, Time Walk, which will usually win you the game.  Even if the Slaver player can bounce an Angel, you can either Brainstorm it back, Thirst it away and Blessing it back in, or just win with the other Angel.

Hopefully that covers most of the questions.  Basically, Oath and Slaver are the same, except that Oath has a better control package and a better win.  Obviously there are things that Slaver can do that Oath can't, but the Oath/Slaver matchup is generally in Oath's favor by an absurdly large percentage.  I don't want to pull a number out of my ass and have people complain about it, but as I said before, Slaver should be a bye for Oath, unless the Slaver player is insanely good or the Oath player is awful.
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2006, 02:05:37 pm »

It would be sweet if the carp brothers would move to CT and put a beating on CS around these parts.  That deck looks super solid, and I'm glad I don't have to play against it every weekend.

They would probably discover just what workshop does to Oath and change their Oath build so it WOULDN'T beat slaver as effectively.  When workshop goes first Oath has a very hard time playing even a single spell, so it's no mystery to me why Oath is not as popular up here.  All the cards Tha Gunslinga said pwn CS are dead against stax, I doubt this build would like it up here.  If you went back to your 5cstax you'd love to play against Oath Razz
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2006, 02:42:07 pm »

The deck can struggle some against a 5c Stax list that is packing lots of hate, but this deck was designed in Workshop country, and handles the Stax matchup better than you'd think.  I'll leave the in-depth explanations for such things to Ben and Dan, but the added counterspells help out a lot in getting down an Oath and protecting it long enough to win the game.
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2006, 04:03:27 pm »

Workshop versus Oath is often a question of build. Some versions of 5cStax indeed can be deadly because of StP, Seal of Cleansing in the main, etc. Most UbaStax decks aren't that difficult to beat.

The problem Stax runs into versus this that post sideboard they do not have a whole lot of broadly effective stuff to add. Most of the things are aimed at the Angels and this is trumped by Simic Sky Swallower now so much better than the other boarded fatties ever did. On the other hand, Oath brings in sickeningly devastating things like Energy Flux. There is very little comparison in the format to how badly Energy Flux hurts Stax. The vast majority of Stax's answers are themselves answerable. Maze loses to Swallower and Wastes. StP loses to additional creatures and Swallower, as does Duplicant (also hurt by the things that shut down Welder). Cap is deadly, but is trumped by Null Rod and quad creatures. Ray of Revelation is probably the most powerful thing Stax can wield versus Oath, but even that requires keeping rainbow sources alive and dodging counters.

As Ben said, Oath was in fact originally designed for a field flooded with Stax. When he T8ed StarCity, he had the misfortune to run into a finely tuned anti-Oath build of Fish, otherwise he would have faced Stax in either the semis or the finals, and probably thrashed Vroman again. The heavy Workshop metagame is evident by a number of sideboard things we had, especially the Volcanic Island we boarded to go with a large complement of Rack and Ruins or even Artifact Mutation for a bit (Ben is insane). Now that Stax is largely absent we have cut it down to a moderate quantity of Energy Fluxes and the ever-versatile Oxidize. Funny, I always hated that green instant but now that Stax is virtually gone I find it incredibly useful. I often board it in as Wasteland #5 and it neatly solves things like Ensnaring Bridge that seem to be popping up all over the place.


For whoever asked, I will have some sort of thread up about the deck, either in general or about the Slaver versus Oath matchup.

PS: If I wanted to come to NE and play with the Workshops, I'd make sure to bring Gilded Claw along with me so you Stax players can discover why I honestly estimated the matchup at roughly 95/5 after thrashing most of the big names of the deck.
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2006, 09:45:50 pm »


They would probably discover just what workshop does to Oath and change their Oath build so it WOULDN'T beat slaver as effectively.  When workshop goes first Oath has a very hard time playing even a single spell, so it's no mystery to me why Oath is not as popular up here.  All the cards Tha Gunslinga said pwn CS are dead against stax, I doubt this build would like it up here.  If you went back to your 5cstax you'd love to play against Oath Razz


Energy Flux says you loooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooose.

Every time.  Oath has been beating up on Stax really brutally lately; just ask Vroman.
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