[Deck Discussion] Meandeck Ichorid

[B166ER]

As far as Ray of Revelation is concerned, I'm really bad about the rules for this stuff, do I have a chance to activate Ray of Revelation before Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Tomod's Crypt, Phyrexian Furance or Withered Wretch removes it?

If there is a Planar Void in play and you dredge a Ray into the graveyard, you can respond to the Void's triggered ability of removing cards going to the graveyard from the game with a flashback-ing of the Ray.  This works because Planar Void says "When a card is put into a graveyard..."

Leyline of the Void is a different story.  Leyline reads "If a card would be put into an opponent's graveyard, remove it from the game instead."  Meaning you'll never get a chance to flashback Ray to hit the Leyline as it never even makes it to the graveyard.  Leyline of the Void is a bitch.

Tormod's Crypt, Phyrexian Furnace and Withered Wretch are all activated abilities, thus you can respond to them by flashback-ing Ray to hit something.  Note that Tormod's Crypt will not be a legal target for Ray of Revelation if you play it in response to them using it, as part of the cost to use Crypt is to sacrifice it, therefor it's not in play for you to even target with Ray.  Also note that Withered Wretch is a creature, so Ray of Revelation isn't going to anything to it, unfortunately.

On preview Angry Pheldagrif pretty much said everything this post was saying.  Mine's more in depth, so I'm posting it anyway.

[Disburden]

I am pretty such Unmask was put in for help against the hardest match- Control Slaver. So if you see slaver a lot I would use Unmasks. Also I thought that Time Walk was taken out of Steve's list already, which is why I asked the Unmask slot question.

I expect Gifts and Fish as control decks, and maybe that combo deck that relies on Draw 4's. Stax, Ubastax, and stuff like that. Decks we don't see during non-proxy, so I highly doubt CS would show up.

Is Gifts going to get as hurt as CS would by Unmask?

I'm confused about this. If you expect Gifts and Uba Stax at a non-proxy why would Slaver not be expected? It uses the same amount of power as Gifts. Uba Stax is even more powerful cards.

Lessthanrite,

I doubt Steve will do a match up analysis on Oath since he said he doesn't do match testing articles on two decks he and his team created (Oath).

[AngryPheldagrif]

He created ICBM Oath?

[mistervader]

I am pretty such Unmask was put in for help against the hardest match- Control Slaver. So if you see slaver a lot I would use Unmasks. Also I thought that Time Walk was taken out of Steve's list already, which is why I asked the Unmask slot question.

I expect Gifts and Fish as control decks, and maybe that combo deck that relies on Draw 4's. Stax, Ubastax, and stuff like that. Decks we don't see during non-proxy, so I highly doubt CS would show up.

Is Gifts going to get as hurt as CS would by Unmask?

I'm confused about this. If you expect Gifts and Uba Stax at a non-proxy why would Slaver not be expected? It uses the same amount of power as Gifts. Uba Stax is even more powerful cards.

Lessthanrite,

I doubt Steve will do a match up analysis on Oath since he said he doesn't do match testing articles on two decks he and his team created (Oath).

Because nobody in my area knows how to run CS well enough for it to matter. They'd rather go with Gifts, and experience has shown me that I can really race against Tinker-Colossus.

[Smmenen]

The best tool is speed.

Oath takes generally one turn to find oath, another turn to play it and then two turns to win.

Use a little bit of disruption and Ichorid will win.  If you think Ichorid has trouble with oath, it doesn't.

Use Therapy to slow the oath activation down a single turn and that is usually enough to win the game.

If you don't like that, use chain of vapor.  Make them play chalice 1 as well.  That will just slow them down more. 

It's a race that Ichorid wins.

It sounds like what you are trying to say is, "the best tool is tempo".  I feel that Oath is just as fast if not faster than Ichorid.

How about a little match up analysis.  I see another 30 pager coming. 

I think the key is using the combination of search/disruption you find most effective and comfortable.

In a Fish/Wasteland metagame, I think Brainstorm is absolutely fanstastic.  As soon as you Bazaar gets Wasted, you can Brainstorm to finish the job of dredging.  It also combos with the Pimp (short for Putrid Imp) to help you dredge.

However, in a control and combo heavy metagame, I think Brainstorm is much less effective.

I think the deck should have at least 2 Chain of Vapors maindeck.  Currently, I am using 4 Unmasks. 

I thought about doing a matchup analysis of Ichorid v. Oath, but it is much less interesting than the two I've already done.

Oath wins a certain percentage of the time - mostly when it is on the play with Mox, Orchard, Oath.

But Ichorid has so many ways to slow Oath down otherwise:

Chalice alone on the play ensures that turn one Oath is not forthcoming.

The Therapies appear onto the stack by the mere act of dredging.  The first Therapy will prevent the first oath from activating.  Then the Oath player will have to EOT burn (likely) to create a token and then Oath.  But that point, the Ichorid player should have dredge quite a bit.

I think the Chalice for 1 plan from Oath is pretty pie-in-the sky.   The exigencies of actual game play make that a pretty silly plan.  Even though it will counter your Therapy, you still get to sac the token to therapy, preventing the player from Oathing.  Even if they do Chalice for 1, Im not that concerned.

I think Crop Rotation and Strip Mine are fantastic in the deck - if you don't use them, then there is NO reason to use a five color mana base unless you really like Root Maze (a card I sadly have not sufficiently tested, even though I came up with it in the sb - (yes, before you Koen - I mentioned it  in the introductory article on the deck)).

I'm not saying Oath can't win, but Oath is designed to fight a certain type of deck - as are most Vintage decks.  Ichorid defies these norms.  It plays spells that are free (Unmask, Leyline, Therapy, Chalice, Ichorid, etc) and uses virtually no mana to do so - it, in my view, is the modern equivalent of GroAtog.   

I do not think that there is a 100% proper list of Ichorid, you need to find configurations that you are comfortable with. I like at least 2 Chain of Vapors for this environment.  With Imp Seal and Vamp tutor, you then have functionally 4, at least.   

The Oath lists in question also only have 2 Waste and a Strip.  So let's not fool ourselve sinto pretending that wasting bazaar is a likely or even probable scenario if the game doesn't last more than 3 functional turns (a 4th irrellevant formality turn in which you won't be dreding at all).  Bazaar really only needs to stay in play turns 1-3 to matter, is what I'm saying. 

I think the Strip mine is too powerful to cut.  I frequently tutor for it because I think with Chalice it is just that powerful. 

[Disburden]

He created ICBM Oath?

Wasn't Chalice Oath a creation by Team Meaneck, which used four Chalices main, thirst for knowledge as a draw engine and an oath combo with Forbidden Orchard? The only difference I see is you run Duress and two rods instead of Phyrexian furnace. My post wasn't meant to be disrepectful or discredit your team.

[Smmenen]

This was the list I ran in Feb of 2005:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9476.html

Chalice Oath
Team Meandeck
4 Oath of Druids
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Ancient Hydra/Triskelion
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Mana Leak
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Phyrexian Furance

4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
4 Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spawning Pit
3 Arcane Laboratory
2 Back to Basics
1 Naturalize
3 Rack and Ruin

It has some pretty important differences between current ICBM Oath, but some of the concept is somethign I thought of a while back. 

[BreathWeapon]

Cutting Imperial Seal for Strip Mine is bad. The other cards listed were already cut for Leyline of the Void. I'm going to update the deck list I posted above to include the changes I've discussed for other users to refer to.

Yes, Balance and Strip Mine can randomly devestate the opponent, but both of them are inconsistant. Balance is difficult to cast, and Rotate/Strip doesn't impress me in the slightest. It either gets FoWed, Drained or you lose tempo over the long run activating Ghouls, casting Therapy or Brainstorm etc. That said, I think Balance is the best possible card for the Crop Rotation slot, I'm settled on it.

@Steve

Steve, are you still running Leyline of the Void main like we discussed? If your using Chain of Vapor, I assume the answer to this is no, and if so you don't think you've turned Combo into a coin flip and conceeded the mirror? As far as no Crop Rotation/Strip Mine, no Golden Manabase, I think that is a poor argument, Balance is a reason to run a Golden Manabase as well as certain SB options (Ray of Revelation).

@Angry,

Thanks, I'm terrible with the stack.

[Smmenen]

@Steve

, I think that is a poor argument, Balance is a reason to run a Golden Manabase as well as certain SB options (Ray of Revelation).

That's a good point.

I think Balance is a great card, but I am totally on the fence on that card.  I just don't know if it is better than the other options.

However, I will say that I don't know how good Ray really is.  How is Ray  better than Chain of Vapor? 

The biggest threat to this deck, period, is Leyline.  Nothing else realy matters.

I've been slaved, crypted, and smashed by Colossus and still won time and time again.  The only card this deck really can't beat without great strain is Leyline.  Hence my preference for boarding upto 4 Chain of Vapor.

[mistervader]

I think at this point, I won't run Leylines MD. But I'll definitely run them in the board against combo.

At least, that's how I see this working out, since my board is wide open right now due to taking out a highly irrelevant Root Maze and three copies of Chain of Vapor which I'm still on the fence on.

[BreathWeapon]

Well, Rey of Revelation doesn't return your Leyline of the Void to your hand, which is important considering I MD 4 of them. Ray of Revelation is a 2cc, permanent answer to a resolved Oath of Druids, Chain of Vapor is 1cc temporary solution to Oath of Druids. Ray of Revelation is a permanent solution solution to Planar Void while Chain of Vapor is a temporary solution. I can resolve Ray of Revelation after I discard it to Bazaar of Baghdad, Putrid Imp or Careful Study.

Granted, Chain of Vapor is a permanent solution to Darksteel Colossus, and a permanent solution to anything else inconjuction with Unmask or Cabal therapy, but being countered by Chalice 1 sucks, a lot.

About the only thing Chain of Vapor works better against than Ray of Revelation is Leyline of the Void.

Edit: Steve, you need to playtest this deck against UW/b fish, Planar Void is a serious problem and they can protect it with Chalice 1.

[TurbulentDirge]

I actually did not find the Root Mazes to be irrelevant; they have wrecked all storm based combo decks I have played thus far.

I have always thought that bounce was better than the straight up enchantment destruction due to its versatility.
Planar Void I deal with using bounce, similar to leylines; I think we might be worrying too much and should just circumvent the graveyard cards with bounce.

That being said, I found that the most useless of my board cards was Null Rod. Two mana, and it seems like a card that handles situations we can race anyway. Get rid of it perhaps?
-DL

[mistervader]

I actually did not find the Root Mazes to be irrelevant; they have wrecked all storm based combo decks I have played thus far.

I have always thought that bounce was better than the straight up enchantment destruction due to its versatility.
Planar Void I deal with using bounce, similar to leylines; I think we might be worrying too much and should just circumvent the graveyard cards with bounce.

That being said, I found that the most useless of my board cards was Null Rod. Two mana, and it seems like a card that handles situations we can race anyway. Get rid of it perhaps?
-DL

Yes, I figured that much about Storm Combo.

Unfortunately, I'm the only gung-ho combo player in the Philippine meta, so I highly doubt I'd worry about anyone else hitting me with Tendrils for 10 come Sunday. As I said, it'll be Stax, Gifts, and Fish for the most part.

[BreathWeapon]

I wouldn't cut it, it answers Tormod's Crypt, which you can't race. It shuts off all Moxen, which is better than Root Maze, and it answers other random MD or SB cards like Jester's Cap, Mind Slaver and Granite Shards.

Seriously, if you can't beat Combo with 4 Leylline of the Void, 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Unmask and 4 Cabal Therapy you can still board in Null Rod.

[meadbert]

So I have been running 3 Leyline and 4 Force of Wills but no Unmask.  I have also been running Stifle a bit but I am not sold on it.  It is useful in that it can Stifle a Crypt or Wasteland or Fetchland or occationally a Tendrils.  Initially the idea was protect Bazaar, but if I lead with Bazaar I probably have no mana for Stifle anyway.  In that case I would rather have a Brainstorm next turn in case my Bazaar is wasted.

Now a Bazaar a Saphire and Stifle is sweet, but that does not happen much at all.  Stifle is most useful when playing Bazaar first turn and then following up with Rainbow land and then being able to Stifle a fetch.  It is also very important when Crypt comes down first turn.  Anyway, I am not sold.

The Forces seem pretty great.  I mean the whole point of the deck is to not have to pay for spells so it works out. 

[Disburden]

So I have been running 3 Leyline and 4 Force of Wills but no Unmask.  I have also been running Stifle a bit but I am not sold on it.  It is useful in that it can Stifle a Crypt or Wasteland or Fetchland or occationally a Tendrils.  Initially the idea was protect Bazaar, but if I lead with Bazaar I probably have no mana for Stifle anyway.  In that case I would rather have a Brainstorm next turn in case my Bazaar is wasted.

Now a Bazaar a Saphire and Stifle is sweet, but that does not happen much at all.  Stifle is most useful when playing Bazaar first turn and then following up with Rainbow land and then being able to Stifle a fetch.  It is also very important when Crypt comes down first turn.  Anyway, I am not sold.

The Forces seem pretty great.  I mean the whole point of the deck is to not have to pay for spells so it works out. 

What would you pitch to Force Of will? Chain of vapor is too crucial to remove from the game and so is Brainstorms. I don't see Force Of Will being all that good. Why would you care to counter spells? Counter spells vs. Us already suck so why try to win a counter war. What treats besides LOTV and Crypt matter? Crypt can be Null Rodded no problem which leaves Leyline. That's not enough to run Force Of Will, to me.

As to mention Null Rod in the SB. I would never cut that card, it's so good vs. Slaver, our hardest match. It's a friggin beating for them when it resolves.

[BreathWeapon]

Is Slaver this deck's hardest match? Between Leyline, Chalice, Unmask and Therapy they haven't been able to withstand my assault, and that's with out bringing in Rods. I find Oath to be the most difficult Drain match up, which is one of the reasons I SB Ray, and after that UW/b Fish is very difficult (I can't say the match up is unfavorable, but it is incredibly hard to play for Ichorid).

[meadbert]

So I have been running 3 Leyline and 4 Force of Wills but no Unmask.  I have also been running Stifle a bit but I am not sold on it.  It is useful in that it can Stifle a Crypt or Wasteland or Fetchland or occationally a Tendrils.  Initially the idea was protect Bazaar, but if I lead with Bazaar I probably have no mana for Stifle anyway.  In that case I would rather have a Brainstorm next turn in case my Bazaar is wasted.

Now a Bazaar a Saphire and Stifle is sweet, but that does not happen much at all.  Stifle is most useful when playing Bazaar first turn and then following up with Rainbow land and then being able to Stifle a fetch.  It is also very important when Crypt comes down first turn.  Anyway, I am not sold.

The Forces seem pretty great.  I mean the whole point of the deck is to not have to pay for spells so it works out. 

What would you pitch to Force Of will? Chain of vapor is too crucial to remove from the game and so is Brainstorms. I don't see Force Of Will being all that good. Why would you care to counter spells? Counter spells vs. Us already suck so why try to win a counter war. What treats besides LOTV and Crypt matter? Crypt can be Null Rodded no problem which leaves Leyline. That's not enough to run Force Of Will, to me.

As to mention Null Rod in the SB. I would never cut that card, it's so good vs. Slaver, our hardest match. It's a friggin beating for them when it resolves.

There are a host of cards that wreck Ichorid, including Tormod's Crypt, Orb of Dreams, Ensnaring Bridge, Caltrops and Triskelion.  Any of those I would much rather counter than bounce.  I would be happy to pitch either Chains or Brainstorm.  Also, IT can race Ichorid so a Force of Will can prevent them from going off.  I would much rather counter Oath than bounce it.  Now there is the trouble that your Force could be countered.

[Disburden]

I honestly don't see Trike as being a huge problem. Do you have a full set of Null Rods and Pithing Needles in your Sideboard?
You also have Four Chalices to set to zero to deal with Crypt pre-boarding. Plus you only have like 8 pitching spells for Force of will. That's just bad.

4 Brainstorm
1 Chain
1 Recall

(3 Chain of vapor in your Sideboard)

That's enough to run four Force of Will? I think that's highly unacceptable amounts of blue spells. The free proactive disruption is way better than being reactive with this deck.

[Harlequin]

I have a question:
Is there any conceable way this deck could run Pyrostatic Pillars?  It seems like it would be abundantly amazing in shortening the clock, and simultaniously punishing Storm Based Combo.

Has this been explored by any of you Ichoid Guru's out there?

[nataz]

too expensive.

When you have to fight to include balance and TW, piller will never make the cut.

[Harlequin]

I figgured that was the case.  But still, Its on par with Null Rod as far as I'm concerned.  But works the other way... rather than slow them down, it speeds you up.  It aslo would make an opponents Darkblast basically worthless.  Just wondering if anyone has considered it or tested with it at all.

[Mr. Type 4]

Ray of Revelation - Casting cost is too high vs. Leyline, and if they don't have Leyline, this card is pretty narrow.  You can't be sitting around for two turns waiting to be able to cast Ray.  Until you remove the Leyline, you don't get to really start playing.  Also, it is regularly difficult to come up with 2 manas at all. 

Force of Will - You don't play enough blue cards, and you regularly throw your hand away.  I can't imagine cutting four cards in this deck to run this thing.

[meadbert]

I run 16 blue cards although which cards keep changing.

I run
1x Ancestral
3x Chain
4x Force
8x Stifle/Brainstorm/Careful Study/Timewalk

Recently I have not been running Timewalk.  My meta is wasteland saturated so getting 2 mana up is pretty tough.
That is also why I have played with Stifle but I am by no means advocating it.

[BreathWeapon]

@Ray of Revelation

What other deck is using Leyline of the Void tho' to make its 2cc an issue? A deck with Bazaar? In this instance, wouldn't risking the 2cc be worth being able to keep your own Leyline on the Board?

I rather like permanent solutions to Oath of Druids and Planar Void that I can actually dredge. Finding Chain when you need it is damn hard in this deck.

@Pyrostatic Pillar

Yes, I've tried it. It's good against Combo and ok against Slaver, but it's not as good against Gifts and doesn't stop random cards from wrecking you like Granite Shard. Darkblast can be neutralized with Leyline, some people stopped SBing it in against me (tho' I don't think I agree with that)

[TurbulentDirge]

FoW is definitely the wrong card for this deck. The ability to pitch a blue card is neither a) consistent or b) useful. That is to say it is far more useful to pitch to Unmask (as well as less disruptive) then to FoW a card.
Are you ever seriously going to want to pitch Time Walk/Recall/Brainstorm to a FoW when you can far more easily get rid of a random black card that is rather superfluous; Putrid Imp, Golgari Thug, random Stinky, etc. Unmask i feel is just strictly better. 

I have always had mixed feelings about the Ray, solely because it is so limited. Bounce can deal with virtually any permanent threat, whereas ray is only useful in select situations. Admittedly, these situations are relatively important for the deck, but there are better ways to deal with enchantments than the ray. Furthermore, the ray has a nice tendency to circumvent the god awful Chalice for 1.

Pillar seems too expensive, as I often do not play another land/mana after turn 1 Bazaar, Turn 2 Mine.

What is this decks best plan against slaver if it is so dangerous? I never found this matchup to be that bad, but perhaps I am wrong.

-DL

[Disburden]

FoW is definitely the wrong card for this deck. The ability to pitch a blue card is neither a) consistent or b) useful. That is to say it is far more useful to pitch to Unmask (as well as less disruptive) then to FoW a card.
Are you ever seriously going to want to pitch Time Walk/Recall/Brainstorm to a FoW when you can far more easily get rid of a random black card that is rather superfluous; Putrid Imp, Golgari Thug, random Stinky, etc. Unmask i feel is just strictly better. 

-DL

Since we don't know what was exactly cut from Meandeck's list, I thought I'd post my list here with the changes I made.

-1Thug
-1 Imperial Seal
-1 Careful Study
-1 balance

That leaves my list looking like this:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip mine
1 Underground sea

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Black lotus

4 Ghoul
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed
4 Putrid
4 Troll

4 Cabal therapy
4 Unmask
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:
4 Null Rod
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor

That leaves room for the four Unmasks added to the maindeck. I miss the Careful Study sometimes. The main point of this deck is that it cheats on tempo advantages more than any other deck in the format. If you read the recent tempo article on Magic the Gathering.com about "Beats" during tempo week you'd see this really does screw with how the game was meant to be played. Reacting with Counterspells and Force of Wills really slows down the whole idea of earning as many "beats" over your opponent as you can. If I was going to play Force of Will, I'd just play a Drain deck.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Imperial seal is too good to cut. I cut an underground instead. I've yet to be mana screwed.

Also, it's worth noting that if you run leyline maindeck, you absolutely do not need any more hate out of the yard against combo. Leyline also happens to be good against 90% of the field.

Also, this deck does not lose to fish. Maybe if they board in 4 leylines + crypts they stand a chance, but not pre-board. Your creatures are bigger and free. Most of their disruption is ass against this deck.

[mistervader]

What reasons do I have to not run Ground Seal in the board INSTEAD of Null Rod?

Here's my reasons why, and I need counter-reasons why not, so I can weigh the pros and cons.

1. Costs as much as Null Rod, and is hardly a problem with a rainbow config.

2. Cantrips.

3. Harder to kill than an artifact.

4. Shuts down Withered Wretch, AND Welders. Does it help against Tormod's Crypt, though? Based on the wording, I doubt, but maybe someone could confirm this...

5. Again, I'm in an unpowered meta, so shutting Moxen off isn't much of an issue... I don't even run Chalices anymore because of that.

So with those reasons, is there any good, convincing reason why I should run Null Rod over Ground Seal in the board?

BTW, came from a proxy tournament today, placed 3-0-2 after swiss, then went straight through the Top 8 all the way to Top 2. Stax was a walk in the park as expected, but I lost to IT in the finals. And it was actually a close game, even. I noticed a lot of great things about the deck, particularly the fact that it can win through a lot of things, and is so fast it can race against Colossus, and in my case, even Oath. I honestly didn't expect the latter to happen.

In any case, thoughts on Ground Seal? Or should I stick to Null Rod?

[BreathWeapon]

Imperial seal is too good to cut. I cut an underground instead. I've yet to be mana screwed.

Also, it's worth noting that if you run leyline maindeck, you absolutely do not need any more hate out of the yard against combo. Leyline also happens to be good against 90% of the field.

Also, this deck does not lose to fish. Maybe if they board in 4 leylines + crypts they stand a chance, but not pre-board. Your creatures are bigger and free. Most of their disruption is ass against this deck.

The problem is, when I say Fish no one has a unified understanding of the term. The U/W/b builds are a pain, 5 Strips, Chalice@1 and Planar Void can FUBAR Ichorid. Granted, game one Ichorid has the edge, but games 2/3 swing violently.

I would MD Leyline of the Void, people who aren't are missing out.