Nefarious Lich and Words of Worship

[netherspirit]

My question concerns the interaction between Nefarious Lich and Words of Worship.
Nefarious Lich says:

If you would be dealt damage, remove that many cards in your graveyard from the game instead. If you can’t, you lose the game.
If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead.
When Nefarious Lich leaves play, you lose the game.

And Words of Worship says:

1: The next time you would draw a card this turn, you gain 5 life instead.


Is it possible to pay 1 to Words allowing you to draw 5 cards from the Lich, then pay another 1 for each of those draws, in total giving you 25 cards?

[Apollyon]

Yes, that works like you say that it does.

You need to pay the mana before you draw the cards, though. So you need to activate Words of Worship 6 times during your upkeep, for example, to draw 25 cards.

[nietzsche]

you dont have to activate during upkeep, you can activate in response to the draws.  It works like this:

stack draw for turn
respond with words
stack 5 draw triggers individually
respond to draw 1 with words
stack 5 new draws
repeat

[Apollyon]

Drawing your card for the turn doesn't use the stack.

Also, Nefarious Lich replaces the lifegain, so you can't stack the draws.

Words replaces the draw, so you also can't stack the lifegain.

[netherspirit]

The draws from the Nefarious Lich must be stacked though, so surely you can activate Words before each of the draws? This has always confused me

[bomholmm]

This doesn't actually work.  You only get one chance to draw cards on the event from the lich.  So you can only draw up to 5 cards.  The relevant rule is this.

419.6a A replacement effect doesn't invoke itself repeatedly and gets only one opportunity for each event.
Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads "If a creature you control would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead." A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage-not just 4, and not an infinite amount.

[netherspirit]

Yeah but with this you aren't replacing the draw repeatedly, your replacing one, then replacing the five that follow.

[bomholmm]

They are all part of the same event.

Think of it like this

<event one>draw a card</event one>

apply words of worship replacement effect created by the first activation of words

<event one> gain five life </event one>

apply lich replacement effect

<event one> draw five cards </event one>

activate words of worship five times and apply all five replacement effects

<event one>gain five life,gain five life,gain five life,gain five life,gain five life</event one>

lich looks at this and says "I've already been applied to <event one>" so I can't do anything else


The reason you get to apply words multiple times is because each activation is a new replacement effect created by words where lich only has one continuous replacement effect.

[netherspirit]

The thing I don't get though is that I've been taught that in a multiple draw situation each draw stacks seperately, so surely that means each can be replaced?

[bomholmm]

If you draw multiple cards during the resolution of an effect you do count them as several individual instances of "draw a card" they do not however get put on the stack seperately, they are still part of the same effect.

In this example for instance the card draw is never even on the stack because it is the special case of the one card drawn during the draw step.  So in order to do any of this you have to activate words of worship multiple times during your upkeep.

[netherspirit]

Right, so say for instance I pay during my upkeep, will I draw 21 cards?

[bomholmm]

no, you would gain twenty life and draw one card.

[netherspirit]

no, you would gain twenty life and draw one card.

Nefarious Lich replaces all life gain with card draw

[bomholmm]

Was that sarcasm or do you still not get this?

[netherspirit]

No I still don't get this, I was pretty much with it until you said:

So in order to do any of this you have to activate words of worship multiple times during your upkeep.

And then when you said:

no, you would gain twenty life and draw one card.

I just completely got confused, how can you gain life with the Nefarious Lich in play?!

[bomholmm]

You gain life because that life gain is part of an effect that nefarious lich has already been applied to and so it cannot be applied again.  Its not very intuitive but its the same reason that something like Furnace of Rath doesn't cause your creatures to deal infinate damage, it can't replace something its already replaced.

[Apollyon]

While I didn't forget about 419.6a, discussion about this topic indicated that it didn't apply, and you drew 25 cards. Further discussion seems to indicate that it does apply and that you gain 25 life. There's no current Official ruling on it that I could find on the judge mailing list.

Here's how it works:

You would draw your card for the turn.

Words replaces it with gaining 5 life.

Nefarious Lich replaces all 5 points of life gain with drawing 5 cards, which are separate from each other.

Words replaces those draws, as they are the next cards that you draw this turn, so you turn 5 draws into 25 life.

The reason you get to apply words multiple times is because each activation is a new replacement effect created by words where lich only has one continuous replacement effect.

That is correct. Each Words replacement is a single effect. You activate it 6 times and create 6 distinct replacement effects.

The draws from the Nefarious Lich must be stacked though, so surely you can activate Words before each of the draws? This has always confused me

Nefarious Lich's draws don't go on the stack. They are replaced when the lifegain is resolving. So if I cast Healing Salve on myself with NL in play, choosing to gain life, when the Healing Salve resolves, I replace "gain 3 life" with "draw a card, draw a card, draw a card". Not going on the stack is part of a replacement effect.

Comes-into-play-tapped or comes-into-play-with-counters are examples of replacement effects. The Arcbound creatures wouldn't live if their cip ability was a triggered ability, as they would have 0 toughness when SBEs are checked (at the same time that triggers would be put on the stack), so you put their ability on the stack, put them in the graveyard, and then don't get to put the counters on it, as it's dead by the time that the trigger resolves.

[parallax]

Actually, you would just draw five cards. Words of Worship cannot replace the Lich draws because it has already applied to this event.

[netherspirit]

Are any of you guys judges? I'd just be curious to know what a couple of judges say about this because it seems there are a lot of opinions on it.

[Toad]

Upkeep, pay 1 to activate Words of Wisdom.

Draw 1 card.
Words of Wisdom modifies the event and makes it "Gain 5 life".
Lich modifies the event and makes it "Draw 5 cards".

This is still the same event so Words of Wisdom cannot be applied, because of 419.6a.
The 5 cards drawn are as part of the same effect. You dont receive priority between these draws.

[bomholmm]

Each activation of words of worship is a different replacement effect.  each activation can be applied once to the same event.

so if I activate words of worship three times during my upkeep and I have a lich in play things will play out like this.


draw a card
words of worship activation 1 applies
gain 5 life
lich applies
draw 5 cards
words of worship activation 2 applies
gain 5 life draw 4 cards
words of worship activation 3 applies
gain 10 life, draw three cards

[netherspirit]

Ah, now I get it, sorry, I'm a bit slow Hehe, cheers guys