Play Scenario 3: Gifts: What do you do?

[Vale_psionic]

Don't underestimate the importance of rebuild in that scenario. It could be a solid answer to null rod in a few turn and a good cycling card if opponents plays meddling. I think that scroll -----> fow is not the best play cause you're going to lose one important card in hour hand. Chain will do exactly the same,at a low cost,without losing a card in hand. Remember that afert scrolling for chain you have a unknown draw,and you can cycle your rebuild,so the percentage to see one of your 4 fow,one of your 3 mis-d,or one of your 3 left b-storm (to see 3 more cards),ore one of the other 3 merchant (to get a pitch counter) is very high,so i don't want to scroll for a counter but for a specific answer cause in the deck i only have one chain but 7 pitch counter.
Against fish is a solid game plan to scroll for chain asap. You only have to play your basics/fetches, drain something stupid,bounce a permanent and go for the win (expecially if they don't go with turn 1 treat,turn 2 ninja).

Scroll for AR when you see a tundra on the table isn't safe. In this case you lose not only to fow,rod,meddling but also to mis-d. Is that a  fish deck that keep an hand without at least one of those cards?! I don't think so..

[Smmenen]

Any new analysis in light of MDG recent showing?  Any new insights? 

[Liam-K]

This is a tough one.  Your hand is riding on your copy of gifts, and you have no countermagic.  You are also going to have to pass the turn (U count is too low), so you're probably going to have to work around an obnoxious permanent.  Scroll finds you a new gifts of a chain of vapor, so it's probably incorrect to burn it this early.  You almost have to attempt to gifts this turn as well.  FoW + rod/mage/true believer still leaves you scroll->ancestral, as much as that kinda blows.  I definitely put back rebuild, and probably mana vault.

If my first turn gifts resolves, I will probably go for tinker/time walk/force of will/mana drain, reasoning I will have the counter power to make recoup go all the way.

If it doesn't, it depends what they do on their turn.

[Methuselahn]

I'm no MDG expert, but I see a few things and question more.

This really looks like an 'all in' hand.  If they don't have any counter magic either, you win.   You have insane draw AND mana.  If they do have countermagic, you are in for a battle. There is also some critical information that is missing.  Is this game one? Does your opponent know what you are playing?  For the purpose of this post I will just assume that the answers are 1, Yes and 2, No.  (because the most important scenario would be a large event where scouting is somewhat limited).

Nowadays, fish style decks don't run as many Null Rods as they use to.  Just look at The SS and AEther Vial lists.  Basically, I only fear Null Rod coming out of ICBM Oath and Stax.  Jotun Grunt may bring back the Rod into fish now, but we just don't have a lot of data on these decks yet.

I'll dismiss Meddling Mage for now because I can use the 'Blind Mage' excuse for now.   

So, I'd probably do something like put back Vault and Rebuild.  Rebuild on top.  Rebuild being the tougher call to send back.

Drop Ruby, Scroll for Ancestral.  This sets you up to then drop Volcanic and then have both Gifts and Ancestral waiting to drop.  Your opponent knows you have AR, so they will have to consider countering that if you play Gifts first.  Alternatively, you could just bait Gifts with Ancestral.  If this fails, you can fall back on Recoup->Scroll.

Or, you could put back mana and bluff counters while capitalizing on your draw if you are up against something like Bomberman.  This is probably the route I'd feel most comfortable with. 

I think it's a tough call still, but basically since you don't have any of your 11 counters, it's risky. 

There's also nothing wrong with cycling Rebuild if your mana is set up for it.  You're likely going to want it if you plan on Willing and etc.

[Bubbydan]

OK, to the first question I would put back Volcanic and Recoup (Volcanic on top) Play Mox Ruby and Merchant Scroll for FoW. That way if it doesn't go through you have Volcanic coming up, and if it does you get a counter back up for Gifts. You have Rebuild to pitch to FoW. Its a tough move, but it is worth doing.

You can win on turn one barring any counters.....
storm count already 2
put back scroll
put back volc
play ruby
play crypt
tap crypt for 2
play vault
tap for three
4 floating
tap ruby
tap island
 play rebuild
R2 floating
play sapphire
play ruby
play crypt
use 1 play vault
R1 floating
tap sapphire and vault
UR4 floating
play gifts ungiven getting will,b wish, petal, and lotus.
figure lotus and will in GY
R1 floating
sac petal for black
BR1
tap crypt
BR3
play recoup
play y will
0 floating
play lotus
play petal
tap ruby
R floating
sac petal for blue
sack lotus for black
UBBBR floating
use UBR cast rebuild
BB floating
play sapphire, ruby, crypt, and vault
tap ruby and saphire play b wish for ToA
tap crypt
play ToA for win

I realize this is all based on an assumption of what they put in the GY. If the put the petal and lotus in the GY than you have no black sources to play will.

Dan

[TheDB]

Nowadays, fish style decks don't run as many Null Rods as they use to.  Just look at The SS and AEther Vial lists.  Basically, I only fear Null Rod coming out of ICBM Oath and Stax.  Jotun Grunt may bring back the Rod into fish now, but we just don't have a lot of data on these decks yet.

The Jotun grunt fish decks seem to be running 3-4 Null Rods main deck these days.  Dave Feinstein's list from Waterbury is gaining popularity.

Now I would be wondering why there wasn't an Isamaru or Savannah Lions dropped on turn one and maybe think they are playing Slavagers, but I wouldn't put them on not having  a null rod with only a tundra showing.

[Billy Bones]

I realize this is all based on an assumption of what they put in the GY. If the put the petal and lotus in the GY than you have no black sources to play will.

Then the play is no good.  Using up all your resources and then crapping out != tech.

Granted my list of MD gifts is slightly different than yours, here is what I would do:

Put back Recoup and Rebuild.  Why?  Recoup won't be necessicary and I won't need rebuild for spell count.  The Volcanic is more important because it'll give you one extra blue mana when you're going off which is usually more important than excess colorless.

Next, you play Mox Ruby, Merchant Scroll for Mystical Tutor, and pass the turn.

On your next turn, you use the Mox Sapphire to Mystical Tutor on your upkeep for Yawgmoth's Will.

You play the Volcanic Island, then the Mana Crypt into the Mana Vault, then tap the Mana Vault.  4C floating.  Tap the Island to play Gifts Ungiven: C floating, 4 spells.

You get:
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Mox Jet
Lotus Petal

Now I must pause for a minute.  I run 1 Dark Rituall main board because I feel it immensely strengthens my gifts piles.  If you don't run one like I do, you would've put back the Volcanic Island and kept the Rebuild off the Brainstorm, and instead of getting the Dark Ritual with Gifts you would've gotten an Underground Sea.  Either way, you win this turn.

The smart player obviously gives you Mox Jet and Lotus Petal, because either the Dark Ritual or the Lotus Petal will give you 2 spells when played through Yawgmoth's Will, the Lotus Petal simply gives you less mana.  You proceed to play Mox Jet and Lotus Petal.  Tap the Jet and Ruby and use the Petal to play Yawgmoth's Will.

Spell count 7, Volcanic Island still untapped.

Petal into Dark Ritual, Lotus for U, spell count is now lethal.  You have floating.  Use to Mystical Tutor for Tendrils, Brainstorm into the Tendrils, and use the rest of your mana floating to win.

Now there are a few things to consider.

1. Most MD Gifts lists do not run Dark Ritual.  As I explained above, this is fairly irrelevant to this scenario.

2. Question: What if they have a counterspell?  Answer: Than they'll counter a spell no matter what you play.  Sure you could play on the safe side and Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall, but they could just counter the recall.  Against fish, you'll be fighting an uphill battle either way, so you may as well race.

3. Many MD Gifts lists do not run Tendrils main.  I feel this is a huge mistake.  Running burning wish is clunky.  It makes it more difficult to go off because you require an extra .  This can create a huge problem because if you're trying to go off turn two, you may only have one land drop.  If that land is a fetchland, you want to be able to fetch for an Underground Sea and not worry about losing because you're short the . 

On a side note about win conditions, Darksteel Colossus is also a problem, because it is another unnecessary dead card.  The Tendrils kill, when wielded by a competent player is just as effective as Darksteel Colossus, because they both result in a dead opponent.  The difference is that running Tendrils main speeds up your kill by a turn or two and you don't have to worry about drawing Colossus.  Then you can either cut Tinker and Colossus entirely or run Memory Jar in place of the Colossus to strengthen your deck against graveyard hate.

[ashiXIII]

Nowadays, fish style decks don't run as many Null Rods as they use to.  Just look at The SS and AEther Vial lists.  Basically, I only fear Null Rod coming out of ICBM Oath and Stax.  Jotun Grunt may bring back the Rod into fish now, but we just don't have a lot of data on these decks yet.

The Jotun grunt fish decks seem to be running 3-4 Null Rods main deck these days.  Dave Feinstein's list from Waterbury is gaining popularity.

Now I would be wondering why there wasn't an Isamaru or Savannah Lions dropped on turn one and maybe think they are playing Slavagers, but I wouldn't put them on not having  a null rod with only a tundra showing.

Tinker -> Colossus is stronger against graveyard hate than Memory Jar is. Also, I could argue that winning with Colossus is actually easier than winning with Tendrils. I don't mean in general, but I mean almost always. If you're winning with Tendrils (main deck or Burning Wishing for it) you're probably Willing. If you have a Will turn that allows you to win with Tendrils, it's usually very, very easy to Tinker -> Walk -> Walk instead. I almost never actually use the B. Wish -> Tendrils kill because if I have the Wish I end up blowing it early on Deep Analysis or Duress.

[Billy Bones]

Tinker -> Colossus is stronger against graveyard hate than Memory Jar is. Also, I could argue that winning with Colossus is actually easier than winning with Tendrils. I don't mean in general, but I mean almost always. If you're winning with Tendrils (main deck or Burning Wishing for it) you're probably Willing. 

You're comparing apples to oranges.  If you're using Memory Jar, you're going for the Tendrils kill and Colossus isn't even an issue.  The point of using memory jar is specifically that you do NOT have to use Yawgmoth's Will, hence the comment that it strengthens the deck against graveyard hate. 

[dicemanx]

On a side note about win conditions, Darksteel Colossus is also a problem, because it is another unnecessary dead card.  The Tendrils kill, when wielded by a competent player is just as effective as Darksteel Colossus, because they both result in a dead opponent.

Tinker-DSC isn't merely a win condition - its a major trump against mana denial strategies (Null Rod based or otherwise) that make going off with Will (or Jar/Tendrils) very difficult. Gifts doesn't generate overwhelming mana and card advantage every game, so a "win small" side plan is sometimes necessary.

[Whatever Works]

I dont know I find this to be a pretty easy choice personally, but alot of it has to do with my play style.

Going all out for gifts would be wrong imo, and overextending w/o keeping rebuild in hand would also be a play error.

I would put back the Volc & burning wish (not amazing at this point int game)... play the mox ruby... and cast Merchant scroll for FoW (if you want to be safe), or in my case I would get ancestral.

If they daze the merchant scroll it doesnt really matter... b/c they settiing themselves back a turn & gifts online the next turn anyway.

I would keep rebuild b/c if the list is fish I would fear null rod with a hand like that, because your "so many broken plays" could quickly turn into "so many things I wish I could do but I cant).

In a matchup like this you HAVE to assume your oponent has a FOW... if people do the all out play crypt etc. rebuild.... gifts (and have gifts FoW)... then your left with no hand... no good answers... 2 dead cards on top...and a mana crypt dealing you damage... thats awful in a hand that will likely win the game with relative ease if you play it safe.

I dont get why people try to rush kills with meandeck gifts to only have there collossus StP'ed, because they didnt set it up... Or fizzle & then lose to a null rod.

This hand Is good b/c it allows you to "win small" in a similar sense to what dicemanx was saying.

[ashiXIII]

Tinker -> Colossus is stronger against graveyard hate than Memory Jar is. Also, I could argue that winning with Colossus is actually easier than winning with Tendrils. I don't mean in general, but I mean almost always. If you're winning with Tendrils (main deck or Burning Wishing for it) you're probably Willing. 

You're comparing apples to oranges.  If you're using Memory Jar, you're going for the Tendrils kill and Colossus isn't even an issue.  The point of using memory jar is specifically that you do NOT have to use Yawgmoth's Will, hence the comment that it strengthens the deck against graveyard hate. 

I was making two different comparisons. The first one (against strengthening the deck against graveyard hate) was Colossus to Jar. The second one was Colossus to Tendrils. If you're cutting the Colossus for Jar to to strengthen the deck against GY hate, that doesn't make any sense, because just having Colossus there in the first place is infinitely stronger than having Jar there. Gifts can't really combo out on a Jar hand as reliably as pure combo decks. You get clogged up a lot with Merchant Scrolls, Gifts, Drains, Mis-D's, and Forces.

[Smmenen]

OK, to the first question I would put back Volcanic and Recoup (Volcanic on top) Play Mox Ruby and Merchant Scroll for FoW. That way if it doesn't go through you have Volcanic coming up, and if it does you get a counter back up for Gifts. You have Rebuild to pitch to FoW. Its a tough move, but it is worth doing.

You can win on turn one barring any counters.....
storm count already 2
put back scroll
put back volc
play ruby
play crypt
tap crypt for 2
play vault
tap for three
4 floating
tap ruby
tap island
 play rebuild
R2 floating
play sapphire
play ruby
play crypt
use 1 play vault
R1 floating
tap sapphire and vault
UR4 floating
play gifts ungiven getting will,b wish, petal, and lotus.
figure lotus and will in GY
R1 floating
sac petal for black
BR1
tap crypt
BR3
play recoup
play y will
0 floating
play lotus
play petal
tap ruby
R floating
sac petal for blue
sack lotus for black
UBBBR floating
use UBR cast rebuild
BB floating
play sapphire, ruby, crypt, and vault
tap ruby and saphire play b wish for ToA
tap crypt
play ToA for win

I realize this is all based on an assumption of what they put in the GY. If the put the petal and lotus in the GY than you have no black sources to play will.

Dan

I was waiting months for someone to get this close.

JDizzle actually figured out, almost immediately actually, that this hand is one mana away from a turn ONE kill.

You are close, but the problem is that you do not Gifts for B. Wish.  Can you figure out what JD figured out?


@ Billy Bones:  Kevin Cron also has tried Dark Ritual.  But what did you cut for it? 

[desolutionist]

Black Lotus, Yawgmoth's Will, Mox Jet, and Lotus Petal

Put back Scroll & Volcanic

Play Ruby, Crypt, and Vault to float RU4
Rebuild, Replay to float RRU6
Gifts [Lotus, Will, Jet, Petal] to float RR3
Play Jet & Petal (sac) to float RRRB3
Recoup (From Hand) [Will] to float RR
Play Lotus & Petal to float UUUBRR
Rebuild to float UBBRRR4
Gifts [Wish, Sol Ring, Pearl, Emerald] BBRRR1
Play Pearl and Emerald to float BBWGRRR1
Recoup [Burning Wish] for Tendrils to float BBRW
Tendrils for 44

[Dakkon]

Black Lotus, Yawgmoth's Will, Mox Jet, and Lotus Petal

Put back Scroll & Volcanic

Play Ruby, Crypt, and Vault to float RU4
Rebuild, Replay to float RRU6
Gifts [Lotus, Will, Jet, Petal] to float RR3
Play Jet & Petal (sac) to float RRRB3
Recoup (From Hand) [Will] to float RR
Play Lotus & Petal to float UUUBRR
Rebuild to float UBBRRR4
Gifts [Wish, Recall, Pearl, Emerald] BBRRR1
Play Pearl and Emerald to float BBWGRRR1
Recoup [Burning Wish] for Tendrils to float BBRW
Tendrils for 44

Thats cool and all. except theres 1 small problem. When you play Yawgmoth's Will all other cards put in graveyard after are removed from the game. So your burning wish gets removed if they choose to not give it to you. So its not a valid recoup target.

[Liam-K]

I was waiting months for someone to get this close.

JDizzle actually figured out, almost immediately actually, that this hand is one mana away from a turn ONE kill.

You are close, but the problem is that you do not Gifts for B. Wish.  Can you figure out what JD figured out?


@ Billy Bones:  Kevin Cron also has tried Dark Ritual.  But what did you cut for it? 

I'm guessing this has to do with scroll->mystical->cycle rebuild.  That was one of the first things I looked at.  Like I said above, it's short U.

[Kevin Folinus]

I am not sure if this was already posted but why is the land in play? I am a big fan of playing fetch lands after brainstorm (especially before stifle became popular in fish due to the heavy combo meta.)

I posted that and then started thinking that the island plays around Stifle/Daze and the fetch isn't important because there are very few situations you won't be shuffling with the other cards in your hand. My bad on the dumb question. Happy I could modify this though before I got spammed with You Retard posts.

In note of what someone said about playing around nullrod because there was no turn 1 creature drop this increases the likelyhood of a null rod on turn 2.

PS. Is Time Walk the card that should be in the pile? It's a guess without even looking at what people have already come up with lol..

[desolutionist]

Black Lotus, Yawgmoth's Will, Mox Jet, and Lotus Petal

Put back Scroll & Volcanic

Play Ruby, Crypt, and Vault to float RU4
Rebuild, Replay to float RRU6
Gifts [Lotus, Will, Jet, Petal] to float RR3
Play Jet & Petal (sac) to float RRRB3
Recoup (From Hand) [Will] to float RR
Play Lotus & Petal to float UUUBRR
Rebuild to float UBBRRR4
Gifts [Wish, Recall, Pearl, Emerald] BBRRR1
Play Pearl and Emerald to float BBWGRRR1
Recoup [Burning Wish] for Tendrils to float BBRW
Tendrils for 44

Thats cool and all. except theres 1 small problem. When you play Yawgmoth's Will all other cards put in graveyard after are removed from the game. So your burning wish gets removed if they choose to not give it to you. So its not a valid recoup target.

Yeah, you're right.

[Liam-K]

Ah, I don't have vamp in my list.  I gave up without a tutor in the bin.

[Bubbydan]

  Nor is there any Hurkyl's Recall main.

  I would personally drop one of the merchant scrolls for a Vamp. It grabs more things, and in situations like this is far better than scroll.

Dan

[FTKzak]

Ok, question:

Can you win on turn one, assuming they do not have a counterspell?  If so, how?  If not, how close can you get?

I think this works for the turn one kill...

Play Island
Play Sapphire, Brainstorm (Storm 1)
Put back Merchant Scroll and Volcanic (Storm 2)
Play Ruby  (Storm 3)
Tap Island 
Play Crypt  (Storm 4)
Play Vault  (Storm 5)
Rebuild  (Storm 6)
Play Sapphire, Ruby, Crypt, Vault  (Storm 10)
Gifts: BWish, Yawg's Will, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal  (Storm 11)

In this situation could they realistically give you anything but BWish and Petal, putting Lotus and YWill in yard?

So, assuming that you now have Burning Wish, Recoup and Lotus Petal in hand...

Play Petal  (Storm 12)
Play Recoup, target: Yawg's Will 
Sac Petal to flashback Will  (Storm 13)
Play Black Lotus, sac for black  (Storm 14)
Play Lotus Petal, sac blue  (Storm 15)
Play Rebuild  (Storm 16)
Play Sapphire, Ruby, Crypt, Vault  (Storm 20)
Play Burning Wish for Tendrils  (Storm 21)
Play Brainstorm just for the hell of it (Storm 22)
Play Tendrils of Agony as the 23rd spell of the turn

If the piles end up with Lotus and Wish in my hand, its pretty much the same as above, just easier.

In the very unlikely case where they give me Lotus and Petal, putting Burning Wish and Yawg's Will in yard, I can Recoup Burning Wish and pay the flashback to get Tendrils (Storm 13)
Play Lotus and Petal, sac Lotus for Black (Storm 15)
Play Tendrils for 32

If I was given Lotus and Will, cast Lotus, sac black, recoup burning wish, wish for tendrils, win.

Petal and Will in hand:
Play petal, sac black 
Play Will, Play Lotus, Play Petal, Recoup Burning Wish 
Sac Lotus for Black, Petal for Blue 
Play Rebuild 
Play Sapphire, Ruby, Crypt, Vault 
Pay flashback on Burning Wish for Tendrils...win the game

In the case of getting Yawg's Will and Burning Wish....I guess this situation could be problematic, but Yawg's Will being so scary, I'm counting on them not putting it in my hand. If it was about two months from now you could BWish for Grapeshot, and deal 13 damage

So five out of the six possible gifts piles could win me the game.

[FTKzak]

In the case of getting Yawg's Will and Burning Wish....I guess this situation could be problematic, but Yawg's Will being so scary, I'm counting on them not putting it in my hand. If it was about two months from now you could BWish for Grapeshot, and deal 13 damage Razz

When I first read it, I thought there was a huge hole in your solution. The problem is that it relies on the opponent making an unoptimal play--being intimidated by a Will that you can't cast. I would definitely give my opponent Yawgmoth's Will if he has no black mana available. I would definitely give you the two spells since you the only remaining source of black mana in the deck is Mox Jet. The fact is, you can't play Will next turn even, since you have no black mana to be found. Basically, you are completely banking on the opponent not figuring out that you have no black mana, nor any way to get it.

Yeah, I realize there's a huge hole in this solution to the problem posed by Steve...but there is no way to get the first turn kill that I can see, and this was the best I could do. Since it doesn't work, I probably wouldn't go this route at all, but like all the other solutions suggested involving double gifts for Will plus mana and then Gifts for the tutor suite, it falls short on black mana. No matter how you play it, it comes close but doesn't quite make it. So the best play wouldn't be to go all in like this, but to set up for the next turn.

[UR]

I have a question for the people who posted a possible chain of spells. Did you figure this out in say, three minutes or less or did you take longer? The reason I ask is because it would all be worthless (regardless of the outcome) if you couldn't produce these results in a certain amount of time. In a tournament situation the judge would urge you to play faster and may eventually give you a gameloss if you aren't sufficiently progressing the gamestate.

[UR]

With Gifts piles, usually you can get up to 5 minutes without too much problem.

That really depends on your opponent and your judge. If somebody would take five minutes to resolve a gifts against me I would have urged them to play on about two or three times and called over a judge to have him watch the rest of the game/match. Maybe it is just me... but I'm pretty certain you'll get a caution at the very least.

[Liam-K]

I have a question for the people who posted a possible chain of spells. Did you figure this out in say, three minutes or less or did you take longer? The reason I ask is because it would all be worthless (regardless of the outcome) if you couldn't produce these results in a certain amount of time. In a tournament situation the judge would urge you to play faster and may eventually give you a gameloss if you aren't sufficiently progressing the gamestate.

However, if you do take the time to work out the "correct" play, you gain familiarity with your deck.  Sure, some of these play descision threads have us all opening up MWS and trying out many different lines of play.  How is that bad?

The only way to get comfortable with making your deck do what you want is it put it through contortions.  Especially tutor decks.  If you're going learn to make difficult plays in a tournament-acceptable time frame, you have to have to have the feel for them, and that only comes with practice.