Play Scenario 3: Gifts: What do you do?

[Smmenen]

This is a post I posted on my team forums in April.  I was playing Meandeck Gifts.

It's turn one.  I'm on the draw and I have just played turn one Brainstorm.

a) What do I put back?

b) what do I do next?

What is the optimal line of play? 

EDIT: SO MANY INSANE PLAYS!

[Disburden]

I actually found this to be extremely difficult for me to figure out what was best. After the Brainstorm I would probably put back the Recoup and the Scroll. I say Recoup because the unavailibility to have a red mana source, plus it's not all that important so early into the game. I'm not sure If I would put back the Scroll, but it seems better than losing a mana source (underground sea) or countermagic and bombs (Walk and Tinker).

After the Brainstorm I woud probably:


Drop Academy

Tap Academy for UU
Tap Vault for 3
That has me a 3UU

To use the mana I would probably try to bait a counter and play Time Walk. I would then have 2U on mana. It seems your opponent is playing Madness of some kind, so there could be a Force of Will. If the Time Walk is countered I'll let them win the counter. This way I can use the remaining mana to cast Tinker for Colossus and sacc the vaultto Tinker.With Force of Will back up. I think the correct play is to find a way to resolve Tinker as soon as possible.

Edit: wait you just changed the whole game scenerio. Hahaha.

[seer]

Obviously you could put back Merchant Scroll and Volcanic Island, drop Ruby and Crypt, Cast Gifts at his EOT for Lotus, petal, Jet, Will and win that turn if you don't put him on any sort of counter.

However, I'm assuming since you dropped that island before brainstorming you are putting your opponent on some sort of fish deck running Daze. This also means that they have force of will so we don't want to scoop to that.

Since this is April, I'm going to assume this deck we are playing against is fish and is NOT running black (duress).

Right now our biggest problem is that we would scoop to a force of will if we gifts for the next turn win (Jet, Petal, Lotus, Will). Since I don't want to scoop to Force of Will I think I would probably put back Volcanic Island and Mana Vault and scroll for Ancestral (which is ok since they aren't playing duress I assume). I'll try to play two bombs at the end of the next turn (ancestral and Gifts).

I was trying to figure out a better play that leads to a turn2 win but I couldn't see it winning through force of will.

[Tin_Mox5831]

I think you put back Recoup and Mana Vault, Play Mana Crypt, then cast Merchant Scroll for Force Of Will. It's too tempting to just go broken here, but I think that this line of play is strong and calculating. Keeping Rebuild gives you Force fodder and you can Gifts yourself into a dominating position next turn with backup. Also, the Tundra opening would indicate to me that the opponent is probably going to leave you a window of time to get yourself composed and win. Also, if you drop Crypt rather than Ruby, you avoid stupid snags like Daze or Force Spike, either of which is realistic given what the opponent has in play thus far.

Just curious, what do you think that early Gifts should be? Tinker, Walk, Yawg, Lotus? Does the answer change in light of possible STP's?

Later,
Dave

[AngryPheldagrif]

Question: Sorry if this is supposed to be assumed either way, but do you have Burning Wish as your backup kill and if so is it your only one?

[edit]: Figured, just making sure.

[Disburden]

Question: Sorry if this is supposed to be assumed either way, but do you have Burning Wish as your backup kill and if so is it your only one?

Meandeck Gifts runs Burning with for Tendrils and tinker as wins. The deck also runs a Chain of Vapor and a Rebuild main.

[AJFirst]

Haha, there really are so many insane plays! Let's break down the hand to start things off:

Rebuild - Doesn't seem that usefull in this match-up. Now granted it could chill in hand and wait for a few turns until it can actually Produce mana, but at that point you should have enough to run the board smoothly. The lone Tundra heavily implies Fish, and so it might be usefull to hold on to in wait of Rods and/or Chalices.

Volcanic Island - It's your only other land.

Merchant Scroll - Shuffle effect, and goes to get Ancestral Recall to help fight off Fish's early rush, or if you're that afraid of meddling mage with the infomations they have so far, then it can also fetch a Force of WIll, although that play doesn't seem nearly as insane.

Recoup - I played Gifts for a long time, and I always loved having the extra peice in hand. It allowed me to get Burning Wish the first time around, or Black Lotus if I was shorted on mana, and with the Merchant Scroll (and the Ancestral you'll get) in the yard, you can merchant for Mystical, Mystical Burning, Ancestral into it.

Mana Vault - Allows us to cast Gifts without playing Crypt, but doesn't help much while going off. This guy's probably going back.

Mana Crypt - Huggggge for us right now Allows us to play the Gifts in hand, or just a two mana boost while comboing. It's also very good with Sapphire and Rebuild, because it means that any other artifacts will actually produce double while going off, and up storm count a bazzillion.

Mox Ruby - Essential to the hand. Allows Merchant scroll or a Gifts right now, and is just needed acceleration with no drawback (except when the oponent's Null Rod hits the board).

I would put back Rebuild and Mana Vault. The Rebuild, although it ups storm count a lot, isn't what we need for this hand right now. I think it's nice to have (especially with Sapphire and Crypt), but not necesary like some of the other peices. I'd say the optimal line of play is to Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall, as that'll bait their Meddling Mage/Countermagic, and you can also Gifts next turn, and see a fresh card. If nothing significant changes on the board, my Gifts would be something like: Black Lotus, Yawgmoth's Will, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal.

Or something like that, and just go nuts. I'm interested to see what the rest of you think about this situation. Are you afraid of Fish's turn two plays enough to Merchant Scroll Force of Will? Which ones? Null Rod, Meddling Mage, Kataki, or True Beleiver? Or chalice at one for that matter cutting off chain...
-AJ

[AngryPheldagrif]

My choice of play in the matter would be to put back Mana Vault and Volcanic Island, play Ruby, cast Merchant Scroll for Force of Will, and attempt to force through a second turn Gifts which would get either Academy, Lotus, Will, Wish if they didn't Force, or something like Tinker, Lotus, Recall, Will if they did. Either way I am setting up a Recoup on the Will for what will probably be an auto-win or within a turn or 2. Under either circumstance I am heavily inclined to go for a Tendrils kill, but they don't have to know that.

[Juggernaut GO]

Holy lord, that isn't even a registered copy of mws !!!! cheap !!!!!

[Cross]

I think the brainstorm was the mistake, I would have just sat with uu open, and played out my mana. Then eot gifts. I think what you got off brainstorm may make that play different, but it looks like you had the artifact mana and the land and sapphire and gifts arleady based on where they are in your hand. 

[dicemanx]

This turn is very critical, because the opposing deck is likely Fish that will most likely have an insane turn 2 play. We have to watch for:

1) Null Rod
2) Meddling mage (calling Gifts Ungiven most likely, depending on whether they can put us on Gifts or if they have prior knowledge; if we Gifts in response, the Gifts will be severely weakened because Mage can name one of the two cards we get)

We also have to hedge against Daze if possible, and make sure we don't go all in and lose to FoW in the process. We can also assume that they won't have Rod or Mage backed by FoW, because we'll likely lose to that anyways (at least to Rod). The Rebuild can deal with Rod only if we drop the Mana Crypt and Mox Ruby and pass the current turn; if Rod doesn't appear then we can consider "calling the bluff" and walking into Daze with an eot Gifts Ungiven, although it would probably be wiser to untap first and then consider the options after drawing a card.

If we want to be a little more active, and risk the Rod, we can use the Merchant Scroll to develop the hand (Ancestral Recall) or get a FoW to either Force through a Gifts or protect against that 2nd turn Rod/Mage. The latter plan seems to be the most sound, because getting a Recall only to have Rod drop could spell disaster. However, it is unclear if resolving a turn 2 Gifts with FoW back-up will result in some overwhelming advantage this early. You are still mana shy and some ways away from a YawgWill. We are likely to just utlize that Gifts to either build our mana base or get other card advantage cards/disruption.

However, there's another option. In terms of what to put back, there's an option of keeping the Recoup and shipping back the Mana Vault and the Volcanic. The Recoup can enable the Scroll for Ancestral plan turn 2 after scrolling for FoW this turn, and resolving Recall is a little stronger than an immediate Gifts for other card drawers/disruption. The issue is that if next turn I don't draw a mana source then Recoup for Scroll for AR uses up all the mana and Daze might be a problem. This can be circumvented by putting back the Mana Crypt and keeping the Mana Vault. However, that might be overdoing it.

In any case, I'm not trying to overanalyze this scenario, and instead treat it as I would in a real setting with a narrow time limit. I would put back the Volcanic and Mana Vault, then Scroll for FoW. If no Null Rod or Mage hits turn 2 (if one does, I'll FoW it), I will untap and draw my card - if its a mana source I'd go for Recoup-Scroll-AR right away; if it isn't, I'd likely Recoup-Scroll and pass the turn. If they didn't threaten me with Rod/Mage turn 2, I can make the assumption that I'm not likely to see one turn 3. 

[freakish777]

I assume Flooded is the land in their bin.  If it's Polluted, then there's an extremely small chance we're playing against 4cc that already has Sea in hand.  I would have expected a play out of Fish on turn 1, there's also a small chance it's UW Landstill (again, extremely small chances as these decks are no longer popular), in both of those scenario's we'd have a slighty tougher game due to Drain.

Under the assumption it's Fish, not having a first turn play signifies to me that they have either Mage or Rod for turn 2 and FoW if not Daze as well (how many Fish players keep a slow hand that doesn't have the control elements without Chalice?).  Them being the beatdown, if they have both Mage and Rod, they'll probably play Mage first unless they see tons of artifacts on the board.  Additionally, if they have Force+blue card+Rod+land that leaves them little room for creatures left in hand that don't cost 1.  All of this leads me to believe they are more likely to play Meddling Mage next turn than Rod.

If Mage is that damaging for us if they know what we're playing, we can hopefully try to not tip our hand (by not playing Merchant Scroll just yet, and by not playing out all our artifacts, we probably won't need Ruby or Crypt immediately unless we're playing Gifts eot) and see if they'll name Thirst for Knowledge placing us on either Brassman Gifts or Slaver. 

So, if we're correct in assuming they have a counter or 2 and Mage/Rod and that they're more likely to play Mage first, I'd say put back Recoup and then Volcanic on top of it.  Play out Mana Vault and pass the turn.

Hope they drop Mage naming Thirst for Knowledge (as that the second most popular blue draw spell that's unrestricted and you already played your Bstorm).  If they drop Rod instead, you still have an out with Rebuild and a second land on top with a shuffle effect in hand that grabs Ancestral as bait, or FoW to pull the FoW out of their hand when you attempt to counter Mage.

Next turn, draw the Volc, drop all your mana on the board, Merchant for AR, using it as bait for the FoW, and then drop Gifts on them.  Fish is always going to be trying to play the beatdown except against IT and GrimLong, as such we can take a little time to make sure we're in control and have their plays dominated. 

[Mantis]

Put back Recoup and Vault since they are the cards you don't really need at this point.
As said before Scroll fetches FoW on mainphase with tapping Ruby and Island. I would play Mana Crypt in the mainphase as well before you play Scroll to be able to stop Daze may it come up.

Second turn you play your Gifts and go broken.

This play example demonstrates just how bad it is to crack fetches on your mainphase. Even if your opponent is not playing Wasteland this is just a stupid action. Any reasonable player would not have cracked his fetch and this would really make things a lot harder for the Gifts player. He could always have fetched on his upkeep or eot if it the deckthinning was even an issue.

How would you guys have played this out assuming the opponent did not fetch on his turn and had a Flooded Strand on his board? That being the only info you have about your opponent. Probably Merchant Scroll into FoW, but now your opponent might have been able to lure you into a Daze if he was playing any.

[Vale_psionic]

I will put back recoup and vault. Than cast ruby and merchant. If he dazes,well,he's going lo lose a turn because he doesn't have cc1 treats, (and on my next turn i can cycle rebuild and cast a vault and gifts into something broken) otherwise I'll get chain of vapor and pass the turn. Now I can deal with null road or meddling on my next turn,draw a new card (or two by cycling rebuild) and play volcanic. If he doesn't have fow in hand he's going to lose quickly with such a play imho.

[UR]

I've never played Gifts but here is the way I look at it;

Put back the Mana Vault and the Recoup. You don't need either now, and you can always get the Recoup back with your Gifts Ungiven. Next, you play the crypt and then the Merchant Scroll. I'm not sure beyond this point but I would probably get Mana Drain. Then pass the turn and manaburn for one...

Should he drop a Null Rod, you'll still have the Rebuild to deal with it.

On your next turn, play Gifts with Drain backup for some Yawgmoth's Will pile and proceed to your opponent's scoop-phase.

[Vale_psionic]

Ur, in this way,if he plays null rod,you have only 2 mana in play,one of them wastable (you have to draw either fetch or basic to have drain online,but you go under daze and fow),so you probably scoop to null rod. If he plays meddling naming gifts you find yourself in topdeck-mode and with a useless drain in hand.
I think that ruby merchant ----> chain is the way to go. Very important,do not play crypt to convince your opponent to daze your scroll.

[MaxxMatt]

@UR
Your logic path bring to a not-so-little nonsense.
If you put back Vault and Recoup, you would have 2 useless draws during your next two turns.
If you allow them to resolve Rod, you have *only* an Island and a Wastable Volcanic Island.
I cannot think about a *long term plan* if your board would consist only of a mana fonts against Fish...

I don't know if I'm going to appreciate more the Dicemanx or the Tin_Mox's one.
During a common played match, I would follow safer and slower path, especially if I'm playing in a tourney. It would leave me enough game options to *try* to survive to this *nasty* situation.

Maxx


Note. Psionic wrote quickier the same things..

[UR]

If you put back Vault and Recoup, you would have 2 useless draws during your next two turns.

Read the Merchant Scroll pretty boy...

[MaxxMatt]

In my mind, M.Scroll would not resolve.
If he started with Tundra, Go, he is going to play *at least* a Brainstorm for FoW/Dazes/Mis-D.
The same argument can apply to Gifts, if you are going to *try* to resolve it.
If I was your, opponent, I would counter almost any blue spells, because, if I started so slowly, I should have kept at least a good Turn2 play.

On the other hand, my major regret towards your plan, was directed to the little amount of mana fonts available to you after a resolved Null Rod+FoW backup, that would probably be the *only* reasons for a so slow starts. Their second lands drop could be a Wasteland too. They can play Turn2 Rod + backup and Turn 3 Wasteland + Threat and the game would be sealed.

*That* Tundra convinced me that he was playing Fish or some *retarded* old version of Rector-Tendril ( especially because of 1st April Fool ). In the first case, your mana development would become far more crucial than anything else.

If you expect some hate, Chain of Vapour or FoW would be the way to go *at some time* during your first or second turn. Chain would let you handle both Rod and Mage once resolved, so it could be better. In a secondarily perspective, it would let you rise the Storm counter better than anything, especially with the Y.Will-->ToA plan in mind.

Maxx

PS. I mumbled a bit about Vale_Psionic suggestion of *forcing* the opponent to think about Dazing your M.Scroll. It would be *extremely* tricky for multiple reasons and it would force opponent into a couple of errors:
1) He would picture about your possible mana development really differently and it would weight *that* spell far more crucial rather than it is.
2) You put him into a crossroad and he could think about changing his plan. He kept a slow hand and he played only with the goal of resolving something during his crucial Turn2 and you put him into the possibility to counter something but retarding his plan another turn.

If he aggressively Daze, you would have an additional draw and your board would be left almost untouched until his next turn: Your choices could be really different since now: Recouping Merchant for something or play aggressively your own Gift are both strong choices.

You transmuted that strong and expectable opponent's Turn2 plays into a far more weaker one.

[klu]

it's pretty sad it's not a goldfish, this hand would allow some turn kill

[UR]

Edit: Nevermind... point conceded to Maxx. I'll refrain from picking up a Gifts list 

[Smmenen]

Ok, question:

Can you win on turn one, assuming they do not have a counterspell?  If so, how?  If not, how close can you get?

[AngryPheldagrif]

Ok, question:

Can you win on turn one, assuming they do not have a counterspell?  If so, how?  If not, how close can you get?

I'm very close, but it may be a lot easier than it looks. By the way, would it be too much to ask for you guys to be running LED?

[Smmenen]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27994.0

[Smmenen]

I think the brainstorm was the mistake, I would have just sat with uu open, and played out my mana. Then eot gifts. I think what you got off brainstorm may make that play different, but it looks like you had the artifact mana and the land and sapphire and gifts arleady based on where they are in your hand. 

I drew mana crypt and gifts off the brainstorm.

I had the ruby in my opening hand, but played it and put it back into my hand for the screen shot.

[MaxxMatt]

You can't win on turn 1 because you cannot afford to find a Gifts pile with 3 mana fonts that would let you Walk into a new turn and then win with the large mana available plus other spells.
My reasoning is based on the commonly played list with 10 mana accelerators and DSC+B.Wish kill.
That reasoning is based on resolving *that* first turn Brainstorm.

if you are not going to resolve it, capitalizing *all* the mana at your disposal, you are going to win on turn 1.

Island, Sapphire, Crypt, Vault, Ruby, tap them UUR4
Gifts U3 leave you with UR1 and Lotus, Petal, Jet, Y.Will. They give you Jet and Petal.
You have BUR1. use Rebuild to bounce back your mana. you have B floating.
Replay Petal, Crypt, Sapphire, Ruby, Jet, Vault. Tap them and you'll have 4BBBRU
Recoup Will. You have 1BBU floating.
Replay Lotus and Petal. 1BBUXXXX
Replay Rebuild, you would consume 3 mana but you'l gain a mix of 7 mana ( Jet, Sapphire, Ruby, Crypt, Vault ). BBXXX-XXXXXXX - *X* are here because I can choose almost all the colours that I need.
Play Gifts for Demonic, Merchant, Vampiric, Ancestral.
Any solution would allow you to grab B.Wish and resolve it for ToA. For your opponent, the smarter choice would be forcing you to Scroll for Mystical and then Ancestral for it.
I lost count of spells.

In the case you cannot afford Vampiric Tutor, I would suggest you play that pile Demonic, Merchant, Brainstorm, Ancestral. They would give you Brainstorm and Ancestrall. With 6 more cards, you would *almost* win.

Otherwise, I cannot think about playing *that* deck without Vampiric Tutor.


Maxx

EDIT> I finished writing after Smmemen's hints about the list

[freakish777]

Assuming no Force/Daze out of them:

Put back volc and merchant


crypt
ruby
vault

4RU (U from Island, R from Ruby, 4 from Crypt + Vault)

Rebuild

2R

crypt
sapphire
ruby

6RRU

Gifts (Lotus, Demonic, Petal, Jet) getting Jet and Petal

3BBRR

Recoup Demonic

1BR

Demonic for Will

1BR

Winning from here with Petal, Lotus, Rebuild and Demonic in the bin is simple.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Winning from here with Petal, Lotus, Rebuild and Demonic in the bin is simple.

Where do you get the third black mana?

[freakish777]

Winning from here with Petal, Lotus, Rebuild and Demonic in the bin is simple.

Where do you get the third black mana?

Hm, I screwed up my math.  The previous time, I tried Yawg Will instead of DT which didn't pan out, so I switched it to DT.  Hurk's in place of Rebuild would make my solution work if I'm not mistaken...  Another possibility to continue with the plan I have going and find a way to Chain of Vapor the Jet for the third black mana.

Anyways, another way to attempt to make it work is to use Will in place of DT (in which case you have RB floating), and then before Rebuilding, play Bstorm again hoping to grab DT, Wish or perhaps more artifact mana or AR.



EDIT:

After some more thinking you can't find Chain of Vapor as there's no more blue sources either and you're completely out of mana:

Lotus, Petal, Bstorm, Rebuild, DT, Gifts, Recoup in bin
Sapphire, Vault, Crypt, Ruby, Jet tapped.

Petal
Lotus

BUUU or BBBU

Rebuild (again, however, Hurk's makes this work and you'd have an additional mana from the previous time you cast it)

B

Sapphire
Jet
Vault
Crypt
Ruby

4BBRU

DT Wish

3BRU

Wish

2BU.

So this solution needs a blue mana filtered to a black.

[Disburden]

Back to the actual question Vs the deck playing Tundra. I truly think that playing your Mox Ruby and tapping the mox with island for Scroll--> Force of Will, is the best play. Before this though, I would put back the Mana Vault and Recoup. If I get Force of Will with Scroll then I need a pitch spell.Then I would drop the Crypt after Scrolling. I don't think I would want that much mana on the table, if they have Force or Daze in hand that much mana might force a counterspell from the opponent. I feel Null Rod might be their turn two play, so Force of Will seems obvious. Chain is good too, but what if they replay the Null Rod before you go off?

I would also like to know what you did after the Brainstorm, Steve. Also what did their turn two play end up being?