Moonring Mirror in Stax?

[netherspirit]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and have finally decided to put this question out to you, the Vintage community - could Moonring Mirror have a place in Stax?

First of all, here's the card for those who don't know it:

Moonring Mirror
 
Artifact
Whenever you draw a card, remove the top card of your library from the game face down.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may remove your hand from the game face down. If you do, put into your hand all other cards you own removed from the game with Moonring Mirror.

Obviously it requires a Bazaar of Baghdad to really get going, but lets look at the pros and cons of it:

Pros:
Weldable,
Can be cast with Shop mana,
Effectively doubles your draws (provided you can play out your hand before getting the removed cards next upkeep),
Good in multiples

Cons:
Relies on other draw engines to get going,
Vulnerable to artifact hate (especially Welder),
Once it's gone the removed cards are permanently RFG,
Can be slow to begin with

Well those are the ones I can think of at the moment, if anyone sees anything I've missed please point it out!

I've found that with this and Bazaar you effectively get an additional three cards per turn (having RFG'd three on the turn before, 1 from draw phase, 2 from Bazaar).

Why put this in Stax though?
Well, there are a few reasons:
1) Welder fun.
2) Stax can usually play its whole hand out quite easily with Moxen, Shops, Academy etc.
3) Your opponent is delayed behind lock pieces while you set this up.

I've done a little bit of testing with it, and I've found that once it hits play it's very nasty indeed, but it can take a little bit of time to get out. I am, though, not that great at building decks, so I'm sure a lot of it is to do with my deck building skills.

Anyways, there's my idea (which knowing my luck has probably been tried before ), anyway, any thoughts, views or opinions on it?

  Netherspirit

[Vegeta2711]

Why play this over Uba Mask? Isn't it just -better- with Bazaar than this card while having a relevant effect on the opponent?

[netherspirit]

Not necessarily, this gives you Welder targets as well as the cards, the fact that you don't get the cards until next turn is pretty irrelevant because at the beginning of *this* turn you will have gotten the cards from the turn before.

[President Skroob]

I think the only advantage of Moonring Mirror would be being able to call it Moonanite Stax, because everything is cooler on the moon.

As the above poster says, Uba Mask is pretty much just better. The effect of Uba on your game is perhaps less powerful (though that's arguable), but the bonus is that Uba heavily disrupts your opponent. It both increases your own tempo while ensuring your opponent can't keep a hand full of nasty counters or situational effects.

If they could function together it might be kind of cool, though it would be a mad crazy space hog, but they can't. Uba Mask doesn't allow draws, which nullifies Moonring Mirror.

Moonring Mirror also has something of a downside of not functioning immediately. You must wait until at least the next upkeep to grab the other hand, perhaps longer if you want to set up something juicy, and a single bounce spell is going to leave all those cards floating off in la-la land. That's something YOU want to be doing to the opponent with Uba Mask. Don't let them them turn it around on you!

Moonring Mirror also costs 5. Personally, I think that the difference between 4 and 5 in a Stax deck is even larger than the gap between 3 and 4. It's pretty significant. The argument that "it's only one more mana" has been brought up many times for many other cards, but it really boils down to the fact that cost is really, really, really important. Huge, in fact. 5 is a dangerous liability, and you can't always rely on a Welder to do it for you.

[netherspirit]

While I do see what you mean about the mana cost, I've always found that Stax can easily get 5 mana on turn one, two at the latest a lot of the time.

[Moxlotus]

Its a Stax component that doesn't actually do anything to the opponent.  Why would you waste time playing this when you could be playing a card to lock our your opponent?  That's the biggest con which you omitted.

[netherspirit]

Its a Stax component that doesn't actually do anything to the opponent.  Why would you waste time playing this when you could be playing a card to lock our your opponent?  That's the biggest con which you omitted.

Because this draws you into lock pieces. That's the whole point of the card, to draw into your threats and locks.

[Moxlotus]

Its a Stax component that doesn't actually do anything to the opponent.  Why would you waste time playing this when you could be playing a card to lock our your opponent?  That's the biggest con which you omitted.

Because this draws you into lock pieces. That's the whole point of the card, to draw into your threats and locks.

It lets you draw into lock piece if you have other stuff on the board already like Bazaar.  A conditional draw engine is not good for Stax.  Bazaar is a nonconditional draw engine.  Bob is a nonconditional draw engine.  Thirst is a nonconditional draw engine.  They all cost less than 5 mana too.

What cards would you cut for this?  Is it even playable in 5c Stax?  Would you cut Ubas for them in mono red stax?  I think its a case of "cool card, but there are better options"

[yespuhyren]

While I do see what you mean about the mana cost, I've always found that Stax can easily get 5 mana on turn one, two at the latest a lot of the time.

5 on turn one??? OFTEN?  Thats a bit of a stretch, my friend.

[netherspirit]

While I do see what you mean about the mana cost, I've always found that Stax can easily get 5 mana on turn one, two at the latest a lot of the time.

5 on turn one??? OFTEN? Thats a bit of a stretch, my friend.

Hmm, I'll admit I phrased that slightly wrong. But I often have 5 mana by turn two, and one isn't at all uncommon.

Think about it, Stax has:
5 Moxen,
Crypt,
Vault,
Ring,
Lotus,
Academy,
4 Worskhop

That's 14 decent mana cards right there, admittedly the Academy needs the others to work particularly well, but what I'm saying is that it's not that hard to reach 5 mana.

[hitman]

The idea isn't wrong but the card is.  Bazaar lets you play threats fast and "draws" you into more threats.   Moonring would cost you actual lock cards in the deck which you have to get online as fast as possible.  You've watered down your deck to possibly draw into what you need.  Bazaar's so good because its free and fast.  It lets you be aggresive by getting threats into play off a Welder while giving you more threats to abuse out of the graveyard at the same time.  Moonring costs too much and might not even help you.  Uba Mask is better because instead of drawing into more threats, it is a threat that locks your opponent out if you have a Welder and gets rid of their counters and other cards they depend on to turn the game back in their favor.  A 5cc spell is a huge Drain target if you plan on hardcasting it.  Draining something that costs five will win them the game if they have any kind of hand.  One Merchant Scroll, Gifts, Thirst, Auriok, Trinket Mage into Pithing Needle naming Welder, Yawg Will, Tinker, or even a Brainstorm that leads to any of those could end your game plan.  Just my two cents.

[Darkenslight]

Uba Mask doesn't allow draws, which nullifies Moonring Mirror.

Moonring Mirror also has something of a downside of not functioning immediately. You must wait until at least the next upkeep to grab the other hand, perhaps longer if you want to set up something juicy, and a single bounce spell is going to leave all those cards floating off in la-la land.

I think you're wrong.  Because both are replacement effects, you get to choose which replacement effect to use: the Uba or the Mirror.  I agree with the assessment of it RE: bounce, but it's got a very interesting interaction with Bazaar.

[President Skroob]

Uba Mask doesn't allow draws, which nullifies Moonring Mirror.

Moonring Mirror also has something of a downside of not functioning immediately. You must wait until at least the next upkeep to grab the other hand, perhaps longer if you want to set up something juicy, and a single bounce spell is going to leave all those cards floating off in la-la land.

I think you're wrong.  Because both are replacement effects, you get to choose which replacement effect to use: the Uba or the Mirror.  I agree with the assessment of it RE: bounce, but it's got a very interesting interaction with Bazaar.

Yes, that's correct. I didn't word it well, but I just meant that the two cannot both function on the same draw.

[Darkenslight]

I didn't word it well, but I just meant that the two cannot both function on the same draw.

...Which is amazing, because you can go, 'Oh, I'd like to NOT lose my cards to Uba Mask.' 

[President Skroob]

When would you want to not lose your cards to Uba Mask? With Bazaar you don't want to have a hand, and it's not like you know what you're drawing and can make decisions based on that. Draw like a madman and play out all that stuff! That's what makes the Ubazaar engine insane!

[The_spooky_kid]

I think I would play bog imp over this in stax... Just my 2 cents.

Being a bit more constructive in your criticism of others' ideas would help the Vintage Improvement Forum live up to its name. 

-DA

[Sporkcore]

Bottled Cloister pretty much does the same thing but for less mana and it draws you that extra card instead of removing it from the game.

[Darkenslight]

Bottled Cloister pretty much does the same thing but for less mana and it draws you that extra card instead of removing it from the game.

Bottled Cloister and Moonring Mirror do two different things:  Cloister gives you one extra card, and has little interaction with Bazaar; Mirror, when combined with Bazaar, allows you to draw many cards at once, much in the same way that Necro or Bargain do. 

However, if either is bounced, you're probably boned in the ass.

[EnialisLiadon]

Cloister is worse when bounced.  Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild + opposing Cloister = all of his or her artifacts RFG'd.  Anyways.

I'm going to have to agree with above statements:  Uba Mask is better.  It disrupts the opponent on its own, and gets absolutely sick with Bazaar.  The multi-tasking is what makes it the best of the three "drawing" artifacts mentioned.