[Deck Discussion] 4-Gush GroATog

[zeus-online]

Meloku costs 5 mana! Thats alot, you don't really have this kind of mana until you've already won....Kudzu just grows too slow without fastbond...and most people (me included) don't really play the deck as "turbo-fastbond".

/Zeus

[Xman]

Umm, yes, I meant splitting Zerk and Wish if you want to say so.
The idea I like most is grabbing situational sideboard stuff and beeing able to zerk.

Most times you need a Tutor for the zerk anyway so the Grow effect is the same as like grabbing it with Cunning Wish.

2 Wishes seem not very sexy to me, though. ^^

By all means, maindeck a 'zerk in your build.  GAT is not like a Long or a combo deck, where there is an optimum build.  GAT is a great deck that you can easily adapt to your style.  If you want 2 Wishes, or 1 Wish &  a Maindecked 'zerk, then by all means do this.  But what would you cut?  It depends on your list.  Personally, I had cut Wraiths for SLeights, then when Mons list came up, I immiediatly changed them to Opts, and loved how much betterthe deck flowed for me.  Wraiths never felt right to me in this deck, and I still don't think so, but some people think they do.

As you can see, it is a deck that you can & will adapt your way.  That is the strength of the deck.

As to the Creatures, Zeus is correct.  Why should you cut Dryads for a Meloku?  for 5 mana, you can get BOTH a Dryad & a Tog into play.  Or even better, a Dryad, and 3 turns of land drops to gro.  A Dryad is usually lethal in that amount of time.  And Tog is the ultimate "Next Turn Clock."  I don't feel it needs more or different creatures in the deck, especially if they are inferior to the ones already in GAT.  Tog is still one of the 3 Best Creatures ever printed, and Dryad is up there in the Top 10.  You can't get much better for a kill than that.

And again, Zeus is correct that most people don't bother to go after Fastbond.  If I get it, great.  It not, then no big deal, and I will continue to play normally.

[Cane1024]

I just got back into magic a few months ago since leaving in 03 but its all starting to come back especially since a few decks have returned from that era.
After i've sat back and analyzed the many different gat lists and tournament results, I've found a list that works well with my style. I really like both Mod's list as well as ELD's but went more towards Mod's. Rich won back to back power tourneys with a deck similar to Mod's and ELD used gat back in its prime to win scores of tourneys so their lists are definitly the starting point for me as of right now.

 Here's my list:

-GAT

1 mox jet
1 mox sapphirre
1 mox emerald
1 black lotus
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 island
1 volcanic island
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 library of alexandria
       

4 quiron dryads
1 psycotog 

4 force of will       
3 misdirection
3 duress
2 mana drain           
1 echoing truth

4 brainstorm
4 gush
3 opt
1 ancestral recall

3 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor
1 time walk
1 yawg will
1 fastbond
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 regrowth
1 imperial seal
1 berzerk

Sb: 
4 yixlid yailer
3 rebs
3 energy flux
3 submerge
2 null rod

As far as the mana base is concerned 18 is sufficient enough to play gat. Any more is a waste of time when your running gush and a bunch of cc2 spells or less. I splash red for reb vs the mirror and other random control. As far as library goes, its too amazing in the early game. Even if it nets you 2-3 cards that's good enough plus it counts as colorless mana which is a highly underrated fact. Also vs control you'll usually win that first counter war after drawing a crap load more cards then them. It makes a huge difference in games for a freaking land. I like strip but replaced it with the volcanic due to the lack of wastes and higher impact of rebs.

4 dryads and 1 tog get the job done. 1 tog is all you should need as a fall back plan like tinker in a tendrils decks.

I run 2 drains for the mid game. 3 is nice but 2 should be fine.

I run opt over sleight because of instant speed. Being able to cast during their turn or during your upkeep to me is more important than looking at 2 cards. Street wraith to me is too much damage when u combine it with fastbond/fetchlands/vamp/imperial seal etc. Maybe better players than me can play around this problem. Its also not blue.
I wish I could run 4 scrolls but for now I can't find a card to bench.

I really like imperial seal in this deck because its a natural fit to gats style and I love fastbond and yawgwill and would like to increase my chance of finding them.

As far as berserk in the main. Its good for me so I can maximize my sideboard for key matchups to give me a serious edge. Its nice to be able to have a first game answer and all but I don't mind berserking early and reusing it via yawg will or regrowth later either. Toughest descision yet.

And lastly the sideboard. The absence of wish enables me to maxamize the side board with mega atomic bombs.

4 jailers for the few ichorid decks that are around. 3 flux for stax. If they come out its ussually game for either 2.

3 rebs and 3 submerge for mirror. Should be plenty to get the job done.

3 rebs and 2 nulls vs control/long type decks. Nulls just hurt seriously bad.

I know that leyline is nice and/or crypts vs flash but 3 rebs and crap loads of duress/pitch counters is good enough for me.
Well just some of my thoughts on gat. Any suggestions are welcome of course. Thanks.

[desolutionist]

steve, you cut the utility land slot.  do you still find library/strip unconvincing?  with gush it's pretty easy to get back up to 7 in the middle turns allowing you to draw extra cards.  and I could see strip on bazaar or workshop helping to save some game 1's.  I'd only play 1 or the other but I'm surprised to see neither in your list.  also your board contains no hurkyls and no energy flux for the workshop matchup.  do you just think it's uncommon enough or that 2 mutations are enough?

I have found basic Island to be critical against Workshops, which are a nightmare matchup.    Strip Mine isn't going to stop Mox, Land Sphere of Resistence.   Your entire deck just becomes almost shut down at that point.    Merchant Scrolls cost 3 as do Dryads.    You will need a stable source of mana so you can throw other lands out there to cast spells expecting that they will get Wasted.   

This isn't a storm deck, Hurkyl's Recall isn't going to win the game by itself.    The Workshop match needs alot of testing and tuning to get it right.    It's a horrible game one situation.    Energy Flux?  Does any Stax deck seriously have trouble with Energy Flux anymore?  Not to mention, getting to 4 mana with Tangle Wires, Sphere of Restence, and Crucible+ Wasteland is quite a chore.   I'm just asking....

Re: Grudge.   This matchup needs to be tested intensely.

EOT Hurkyl's Recall against traditional Stax actually seems like a fine plan most of the time if you can get Fastbond online or huge Yawgmoth's Will next turn.  However the new, ingenious "Stax" decks are completely invulnerable to the EOT Hurkyl's plan and any other plan focused on eliminating Artifacts specifically.  These decks are playing lock pieces in the form of Creatures (Magus of the Moon, Glowrider, Aven Mindcensor), Enchantments (In the Eye of Chaos, Leyline of the Void), AND Artifacts (Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Tangle Wire, Crucible); this was primarily the reason why I sideboarded a set of Drains and mained Rushing River over Hurkyl's at Roanoke.

I don't know, maybe Nevinyrral's Disk?

[tito del monte]

I don't know, maybe Nevinyrral's Disk?

How about Engineered Explosives? Works nicely with the four-colour mana base and doesn't come into play tapped. I think the Explosives are pretty good in the sideboard overall.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

I don't know, maybe Nevinyrral's Disk?

How about Engineered Explosives? Works nicely with the four-colour mana base and doesn't come into play tapped. I think the Explosives are pretty good in the sideboard overall.

I have to agree that Nev's Disk are slow for this purpose.
Since most of the mentioned lock pieces costs 4 mana at most, Engineered Explosives can be viable for those who splash red.
However, my vote still goes to good old Pernicious Deed. (was very fond of it during the GAT->Trix-> Stax era)
Besides the possible larger mana investment, perhaps the only downside on running P.Deeds over E.Explosives is unlike E.Explosives that can act as "spot/selective removal", careful planning has to be invested in running P.Deeds so as to avoid wasting a well grown Dryad.
The pros of running P.Deeds over E.Explosives are pretty obvious with versatility, which is relevant in the evolving Vintage meta, being most attractive.
It can also be effective against Fish post board, among others.
I'd say 1-2 on the board is ok, coupled with the usual Artifact Mutations, Energy Flux and/or bounce spells to combat supposed "new incarnations" of Stax.

[Jo84]

Pernicious Deed seems to be a good choice. Just look at the costs against stax:
Engineered Explosives: 4 to play, 2 to active = total cost 6
Pernicous Deed: 3 to play, 4 to activate (let´s say you wanna wipe some smokestacks too) = total cost 7

Deed is always 1 mana more expensive but it only needs G and B. Also against stax it´s always better to wipe the whole board than to destroy just some permaments.

The argument, that you might blow up your dryad doesn´t count in this case, because if you have a well-grown dryad in play you kill stax in a few turns and won´t need the deed anyway. And even if you need it, blowing up their mana artifacts with a deed for zero or one should give you enough time as you decrease their permament count by a lot.

So if you are looking for mass removal Deed should be the best choice.

[desolutionist]

The biggest problem with Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed is that they are vulnerable to Magus of the Moon and Wasteland; Nevinyrral's Disk is unfortunately better if this plan is viable.

Those decks also seem like they would have trouble with first and second turn Quirion Dryads if you can continue to grow it, so maybe Nimble Mongoose can be boarded for both this particular Stax matchup and the URBana matchup; it is immune to every kind of answer they might have and is bigger than all of their creatures.

[Jo84]

I don´t think the fact that EE and PD are vulnerable to Magus and Blood Moon is important in any way.
Wasteland is more not of your concern as you need 4 lands to play disk which means you have 2-3 duals in play. So you should also be also to cast the other two. The moons are a problem in general for the deck, but therefore you have your islands, so you can go on. The deck doesn´t need much mana to work, so you can find your moxes and either wipe the board with deed or cast Dryad, Will and so on.

[LordHomerCat]

My experience is that Deed would be way too expensive.  I mean, if they play sphere and like chalice 0, you need to get four lands out to even cast the thing.  How often is that a viable option?  I would rather run Hurkyls, some Mutations, and a Fire/Ice or two to deal with stray welders or mindcensors.  It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to run a 3 mana enchantment which costs 2 splash colored mana to try and fight the resource denial deck.

[Purple Hat]

fire/ice also kills magus of the moon and can be cast with the magus in play.  I'd be more concerned about actual blood moons and I feel like "bounce and go off" is a better answer for that.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

My experience is that Deed would be way too expensive.  I mean, if they play sphere and like chalice 0, you need to get four lands out to even cast the thing.  How often is that a viable option?  I would rather run Hurkyls, some Mutations, and a Fire/Ice or two to deal with stray welders or mindcensors.  It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to run a 3 mana enchantment which costs 2 splash colored mana to try and fight the resource denial deck.

My experience taught me otherwise.
Deed is there for mass removal; a "reset button" to wit.
That's something that bounce and spot removal can't do.

And Gush is unrestricted already, meaning you only need 2 lands to cast Deed. (on the 3rd turn)
Plus, both Underground Seas and Tropical Islands are supposed to be your main lands.
Arguing that Deed costs BG is actually dubious.
If anything, relying on Artifact Mutations and Fire/Ice, which both requires R, your real splash color, requires your second look.
How many Volcanic Islands do you run? I only run 1 and 1 Mox Ruby.
That's pretty risky for me, as opposed to 3 USeas and 3 Tropics against the mana denial deck who will surely attack your sources of red mana, post board.

Hurkyl's is only relevant when you already have pressure (i.e. Dryad) in play. (not unless you can bounce Workshops and counter all your opponent's spells - which is something you should've been doing in the first place)

Mutations are nice and as I've suggested, they should be run in tandem with a Deed or two.

Fire/Ice is nifty but if I may use your example (chalice for 0 and sphere in play), would you rather kill Welders on turn 2-3, or destroy Welders, Spheres, Chalices, etc. and and drop your bombs on turn 3-4? (note that I'm highlighting desperate situations coz this is where Deed is needed).
I don't think Fire/Ice should be run as a SB card too. It's more of a MD card IMHO.

Expensive? Yes - if you plan to use it as spot removal, casting only in time of need.
But note that you can always play it to screw up your opponent's strategy, even play a Dryad with it in play, thus investing only 4 mana max a turn.
Exepensive? True - which is why I don't advocate relying on it alone.

And what would you do if you draw your Fire/Ice against Spheres and Chalices?
How about your Mutations with a Welder in play?
Again, if I may point out, flexibility - something that's even more attractive in the evolving vintage meta - is what makes Deed shine.

So ultimately you may have had missed my suggestion and for your enlightenment, I'll say it again:
As SB against a deck that was built supposedly to beat GAT, run a deed or two, artifact mutations and bounce.

All these are my suggestions if Stax and MUD will indeed make a ressurgeance in the meta.

Now I don't know about you, but all these make some ton of sense for me.

[diopter]

My experience is that Deed would be way too expensive.  I mean, if they play sphere and like chalice 0, you need to get four lands out to even cast the thing.  How often is that a viable option?  I would rather run Hurkyls, some Mutations, and a Fire/Ice or two to deal with stray welders or mindcensors.  It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to run a 3 mana enchantment which costs 2 splash colored mana to try and fight the resource denial deck.

My experience taught me otherwise.
Deed is there for mass removal; a "reset button" to wit.
That's something that bounce and spot removal can't do.

And Gush is unrestricted already, meaning you only need 2 lands to cast Deed. (on the 3rd turn)
Plus, both Underground Seas and Tropical Islands are supposed to be your main lands.
Arguing that Deed costs BG is actually dubious.
If anything, relying on Artifact Mutations and Fire/Ice, which both requires R, your real splash color, requires your second look.
How many Volcanic Islands do you run? I only run 1 and 1 Mox Ruby.
That's pretty risky for me, as opposed to 3 USeas and 3 Tropics against the mana denial deck who will surely attack your sources of red mana, post board.

Hurkyl's is only relevant when you already have pressure (i.e. Dryad) in play. (not unless you can bounce Workshops and counter all your opponent's spells - which is something you should've been doing in the first place)

Mutations are nice and as I've suggested, they should be run in tandem with a Deed or two.

Fire/Ice is nifty but if I may use your example (chalice for 0 and sphere in play), would you rather kill Welders on turn 2-3, or destroy Welders, Spheres, Chalices, etc. and and drop your bombs on turn 3-4? (note that I'm highlighting desperate situations coz this is where Deed is needed).
I don't think Fire/Ice should be run as a SB card too. It's more of a MD card IMHO.

Expensive? Yes - if you plan to use it as spot removal, casting only in time of need.
But note that you can always play it to screw up your opponent's strategy, even play a Dryad with it in play, thus investing only 4 mana max a turn.
Exepensive? True - which is why I don't advocate relying on it alone.

And what would you do if you draw your Fire/Ice against Spheres and Chalices?
How about your Mutations with a Welder in play?
Again, if I may point out, flexibility - something that's even more attractive in the evolving vintage meta - is what makes Deed shine.

So ultimately you may have had missed my suggestion and for your enlightenment, I'll say it again:
As SB against a deck that was built supposedly to beat GAT, run a deed or two, artifact mutations and bounce.

All these are my suggestions if Stax and MUD will indeed make a ressurgeance in the meta.

Now I don't know about you, but all these make some ton of sense for me.

Stax will not let you get to 4 lands to cast Deed. You will not be able to protect your Underground Seas and Tropical Islands long enough to consistently cast Deed unless you keep unbroken fetches on the table - and if you do that, Stax will just punish you by playing lock pieces faster than you can play fetchlands.

[Xman]

My experience is that Deed would be way too expensive.  I mean, if they play sphere and like chalice 0, you need to get four lands out to even cast the thing.  How often is that a viable option?  I would rather run Hurkyls, some Mutations, and a Fire/Ice or two to deal with stray welders or mindcensors.  It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to run a 3 mana enchantment which costs 2 splash colored mana to try and fight the resource denial deck.

I think the other option is quite a few players have decided it is better to run Drains again than skip them.  With Drains, it changes everything.  yes, stax is still one of our worse matchups, but not quite as bad.  Deed in the board changes that, as does the inclusion of Drain Main.  It all depends on what list you are running.  In the wraith builds, it is a bad idea for drains & deeds, but in the other builds (opts over wraiths) it is a better idea and tend to work better overall.

[Purple Hat]

My experience is that Deed would be way too expensive.  I mean, if they play sphere and like chalice 0, you need to get four lands out to even cast the thing.  How often is that a viable option?  I would rather run Hurkyls, some Mutations, and a Fire/Ice or two to deal with stray welders or mindcensors.  It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to run a 3 mana enchantment which costs 2 splash colored mana to try and fight the resource denial deck.

I think the other option is quite a few players have decided it is better to run Drains again than skip them.  With Drains, it changes everything.  yes, stax is still one of our worse matchups, but not quite as bad.  Deed in the board changes that, as does the inclusion of Drain Main.  It all depends on what list you are running.  In the wraith builds, it is a bad idea for drains & deeds, but in the other builds (opts over wraiths) it is a better idea and tend to work better overall.

why does the inclusion of wraith or opt have anything to do with drain/deeds?  you can easily play both drains and wraiths or opts and no drains with or without deed

[sWoRdFiSh`]

Stax will not let you get to 4 lands to cast Deed. You will not be able to protect your Underground Seas and Tropical Islands long enough to consistently cast Deed unless you keep unbroken fetches on the table - and if you do that, Stax will just punish you by playing lock pieces faster than you can play fetchlands.

Well perhaps my playtesting partners haven't been mulling enough, but as far as unrestricted Gush GAT lists are concerned, they seldom hit my non-basics anymore with Wastes or Strip.
I think I can give a confident rate of 1.5 non-basic destroyed per game. (which is why I usually fetch the basic island first)
Forgive me if I may sound cocky but I can say with much confidence that keeping B and G against Stax is not such a gargantuan problem for me, barring misplays, broken Stax openings and a myself having a lame opening hand.
And again, you only need 2 lands to cast Deed.

I think the only strong counter-argument that I've read is the possibility of Deed being much more expensive to cast - this I agree to strongly.
The problem with our discussion, so far, is that you guys tend to segregate Deed from the other SB options, namely, Mutations and Bounce.

So let's give actual numbers here:  How many bounce and Mutations do you guys run?
Coz I can only afford to run 2 Mutations, 1 Oxidize, 1 H.Recall and 1 Rebuild.

My experience taught me that more often than not, these 5 aren't enough; after all, Stax was built to deal with GAT - even pre-board.
(Not unless you were able to nail a Mutation on an artifact that costs at least 3 and has a Dryad in play already)
Also since I only run 1 Volcanic Island, usually, my opponent would attack it above the Tropics and Seas (simple because they know I run Mutations).

The thirst for something solid is there;  and I found it in Deed.

I advocate the use of Deed as a sinleton, a pair at most because in all situations that I managed to cast it against Stax, I was able to turn the tide of the game. (Usually Drain->Tutor -> Deed)

So yeah, hopefully a lot of Stax players will be present at the coming proxy tourney I'm joining so I can give a more solid evaluation of running Deeds on the board.

[diopter]

Stax will not let you get to 4 lands to cast Deed. You will not be able to protect your Underground Seas and Tropical Islands long enough to consistently cast Deed unless you keep unbroken fetches on the table - and if you do that, Stax will just punish you by playing lock pieces faster than you can play fetchlands.

Well perhaps my playtesting partners haven't been mulling enough, but as far as unrestricted Gush GAT lists are concerned, they seldom hit my non-basics anymore with Wastes or Strip.
I think I can give a confident rate of 1.5 non-basic destroyed per game. (which is why I usually fetch the basic island first)
Forgive me if I may sound cocky but I can say with much confidence that keeping B and G against Stax is not such a gargantuan problem for me, barring misplays, broken Stax openings and a myself having a lame opening hand.
And again, you only need 2 lands to cast Deed.

I think the only strong counter-argument that I've read is the possibility of Deed being much more expensive to cast - this I agree to strongly.
The problem with our discussion, so far, is that you guys tend to segregate Deed from the other SB options, namely, Mutations and Bounce.

So let's give actual numbers here:  How many bounce and Mutations do you guys run?
Coz I can only afford to run 2 Mutations, 1 Oxidize, 1 H.Recall and 1 Rebuild.

My experience taught me that more often than not, these 5 aren't enough; after all, Stax was built to deal with GAT - even pre-board.
(Not unless you were able to nail a Mutation on an artifact that costs at least 3 and has a Dryad in play already)
Also since I only run 1 Volcanic Island, usually, my opponent would attack it above the Tropics and Seas (simple because they know I run Mutations).

The thirst for something solid is there;  and I found it in Deed.

I advocate the use of Deed as a sinleton, a pair at most because in all situations that I managed to cast it against Stax, I was able to turn the tide of the game. (Usually Drain->Tutor -> Deed)

So yeah, hopefully a lot of Stax players will be present at the coming proxy tourney I'm joining so I can give a more solid evaluation of running Deeds on the board.

If your opponents aren't getting turn 1-2 2Sphere against you at least half the time they are not mulliganing enough. That means you will definitely need the 4 lands to cast your Deed since your Gush will not net you mana. And by turn 4 Stax should have seen at least 1 strip effect, due to topdecking and digging. There is also the issue that GAT might not even hit the required number of lands due to the fact that it runs something like 13-14 land.

To be fair though I run Stax with Serum Powder, Bazaar and some number of Ancient Tombs, which allows for far more broken openings against GAT.

Anyways, I have found both Mutation and Deed to be subpar due to the double off-color requirements. I like Oxidize but unfortunately it gets shut down by Chalice @ 1. I would like to try Flux but unfortunately it costs 3 like Deed - however the color requirements are okay so post-board you can fetch out Islands and do stuff until you drop the Flux.

Also, I think GAT needs 2 Islands post-board against Stax. It is imperative that you are playing spells instead of sitting on fetchlands, because a well-built Stax deck will just keep tightening the noose if you let it.

[Xman]

why does the inclusion of wraith or opt have anything to do with drain/deeds?  you can easily play both drains and wraiths or opts and no drains with or without deed

The inclusion of Opt over Wriath (or Visa Versa) has nothing to do with the inclusion of Drain or Deed.  However, in the lists I have seen, the decks that include Wraith tend not to include Drain, while decks that include Opt generally do include Drain.  I don't know why this is, but it seems to be how things are going.  At least, that is the information I have seen both here & on MWS.

As for the Deed arguement, I think we can all agree it works significantly better if you use Drain in the deck for obvious reasons.  I also think that just the inclusion of drian helps shore up our stax matchup, which aside from the mirror, is our worst matchup.  Deed helps in this aswell, and it yes, you can hit your own dryad with it, if you are in that situation, you are most likely losing the game at that point anyway.  So it can swing it back into your favor.

Please double check your spelling and spacing before making your posts.
-Kowal

[sWoRdFiSh`]

Anyways, I have found both Mutation and Deed to be subpar due to the double off-color requirements. I like Oxidize but unfortunately it gets shut down by Chalice @ 1. I would like to try Flux but unfortunately it costs 3 like Deed - however the color requirements are okay so post-board you can fetch out Islands and do stuff until you drop the Flux.

Also, I think GAT needs 2 Islands post-board against Stax. It is imperative that you are playing spells instead of sitting on fetchlands, because a well-built Stax deck will just keep tightening the noose if you let it.

I will have to disagree that Flux is greater than Deed speaking strictly of the neo-Stax match-up.
Note that new Stax lists tend to shy away from the all-artifact line up and use creatures and enchantments as well for pressure.
Also, the thing about Deed is I can side in a lone copy in almost every match-up.
I also agree with the Oxidize being by far the best solid artifact removal, but unfortunately, once a Welder hits play, its impact on the game decreases dramatically.
I am not completely sold out on ditching Mutations yet too, the reason being a well aimed and well timed Mutation can be game.
The lone Island on the board seems attractive too, especially if your GAT list run the minimum of 18 mana sources.

Lastly, I might've painted the wrong picture of myself sitting on fetch lands just to be able to cast a multi-colored spell.
This is untrue.
I do cast spells, even opt for the first turn USea + Duress game plan against Stax if I have a brainstorm and another fetch land in my opening hand and no FoW.

So basically for me:
2 Artifact Mutations -> must be well timed/aimed, fallback option if all else fails in getting rid of chalice @0 or @1.
1 Oxidize -> just cast it, also for chalice@2 settings
1 H.Recall -> to set up a big win next turn or to just reset your opponent's board and counter key spells
1 Rebuild -> H.Recall's lil' brother, for chalice@2 circumstances
2 P.Deed -> deal with enchantments and creatures. ultimate reset button.