MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #150 on: June 24, 2007, 02:25:15 pm » |
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I'm starting to seriously question Ichorid's ability to beat GAT. Granted, I'm running more MD graveyard hate (4 Leyline) than most other builds, but my game 1 win rate is well over 60%. I expect Stax to be back with a vengance in the post-Gush metagame, at least temporarily, because of how strong its GAT and general Gro matchups are. We've all hyped them so much it's unbelievable, and Stax will at least appear to most people as a solution to the Dryad land that we're speculating about.
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Zvi got 91st out of 178. Way to not make top HALF, you blowhard
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ErkBek
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A strong play.
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« Reply #151 on: June 24, 2007, 02:41:55 pm » |
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I'm starting to seriously question Ichorid's ability to beat GAT. Granted, I'm running more MD graveyard hate (4 Leyline) than most other builds, but my game 1 win rate is well over 60%. Well, you're getting at least 40% of game 1 wins off Leyline.
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Team GWS
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MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #152 on: June 24, 2007, 03:41:06 pm » |
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That's obvious. It was also a tacit suggestion that the deck should run the MD Leyline, because it's savage against not only Ichorid, but also Flash, the mirror, and combo, and lets you play more consistent turn 1 Dryads by supporting Unmask over Duress.
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 03:51:21 pm by MuzzonoAmi »
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Zvi got 91st out of 178. Way to not make top HALF, you blowhard
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #153 on: June 24, 2007, 04:09:42 pm » |
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That's obvious. It was also a tacit suggestion that the deck should run the MD Leyline, because it's savage against not only Ichorid, but also Flash, the mirror, and combo, and lets you play more consistent turn 1 Dryads by supporting Unmask over Duress.
how many games are you losing to other things by drawing leyline after turn 0 since you're playing 4 uncastable dead cards main deck?
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"it's brainstorm...how can you not play brainstorm? You've cast that card right? and it resolved?" -Pat Chapin
Just moved - Looking for players/groups in North Jersey to sling some cardboard.
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Mon, Goblin Chief
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« Reply #154 on: June 24, 2007, 05:30:46 pm » |
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I just took second place at the French CdF-invitation tournament with my own take on GAT. I put up a short report with my reasoning for the - quite different - card choices here. /edit: I don't think I want Leylines MD, a meta full of Ichorid and Flash aside. I draw enough dead cards (lands, extra-dryads) already. Unmask tempts me though. I want to playmore Duress' Ps: I edited before I saw MuzzonoAmi's post.
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 07:34:15 pm by Mon, Goblin Chief »
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High Priest of the Church Of Bla
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MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #155 on: June 24, 2007, 07:05:06 pm » |
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how many games are you losing to other things by drawing leyline after turn 0 since you're playing 4 uncastable dead cards main deck?
Surprisingly few, based on what notes I have. Against Stax, it absolutely weakens you, and has been boarded out every time. If I were to test an alternate configuration to get an absolute count on how it hurts you, I'd probably add the 4th Street Wraith and some combination of Disrupts/REBs. That being said, I've never had to hold one for more than 2 turns, either because of Tog, Brainstorm, or Unmask (which continues to be a bomb into the midgame).
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Zvi got 91st out of 178. Way to not make top HALF, you blowhard
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Smmenen
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« Reply #156 on: June 24, 2007, 07:48:18 pm » |
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how many games are you losing to other things by drawing leyline after turn 0 since you're playing 4 uncastable dead cards main deck?
Surprisingly few, based on what notes I have. Against Stax, it absolutely weakens you, and has been boarded out every time. If I were to test an alternate configuration to get an absolute count on how it hurts you, I'd probably add the 4th Street Wraith and some combination of Disrupts/REBs. That being said, I've never had to hold one for more than 2 turns, either because of Tog, Brainstorm, or Unmask (which continues to be a bomb into the midgame). I honestly don't think that Ichorid is a good deck, in essentially any of its incarnations. It isn't that it isn't objectivley powerful, it is, but it has absolutely no demonstrated ability to win tournaments. Thus, it is automatically not tier one. And why would anyone enter a tournament if they have essentially no chance of winning? Similarly, Flash has yet to demonstrate anything other than its ability to do well in relatively small tournaments with the single exception of a top 4 in a medium sized Canadian tournament.
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MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #157 on: June 24, 2007, 08:02:06 pm » |
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Because people, especially inexperienced people, pick up Ichorid and either don't run it through a gauntlet at all, run it through a normal gauntlet, but with subpar players piloting the decks. This skews the results heavily in Ichorid's favor, and causes them to bring it to the tournament, thinking that they do have a chance of winning, or, and this is probably the most common option, take it to their local shop, play against random extended and legacy decks, then t4 and play an inexperienced person playing a stronger deck and win, because if you're not prepared, Ichorid will walk all over you. I absolutely agree with your analysis, both here and in your article, that Ichorid will never be tier 1, or at least can't be right now as it's too inherently vulnerable to hate.
I disagree, however, that it won't ever comprise more than 5% of the metagame. In terms of t8s, I'll be shocked if it breaks 3%, but the fact that the deck is dirt cheap to build, strong in a vacuum, and easy to pilot make it an attractive Vintage starter deck for a lot of people, and an attractive deck for weaker players. As such, it will be present in the early rounds of most major events.
Flash is similar, albeit more resilient.
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 08:40:48 pm by MuzzonoAmi »
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Zvi got 91st out of 178. Way to not make top HALF, you blowhard
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turqoisehex
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« Reply #158 on: June 25, 2007, 11:10:56 pm » |
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Mon has a really different and interesting way of playing the deck (compared to how most people I know play it). He basically holds out on the threats for the first few turns, and basically creates counter/card advantage. Has anyone else tried playing it this way? Has it worked for you? The MB has been molded to better fit the control role, -4 Street Wraith, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Fetch, -1 Merchant Scroll, +2 Daze (He didn't like these) +2 Mana Drain for mid game, +2 Opt, +1 Echoing Truth. In principal I think this is really interesting, and a genius use of the gush advantage.
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MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #159 on: June 26, 2007, 12:08:00 am » |
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That's a lot like Hulk ca. 2003 with Gushes added. It seems like it would benefit from going completely in that direction
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Zvi got 91st out of 178. Way to not make top HALF, you blowhard
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acidfreak
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« Reply #160 on: June 26, 2007, 07:58:39 am » |
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I'm going to a proxy tournament this sunday and this is what I intend to play. I expect a lot of stax and control slaver to be there. This is Mon's list with +1 Merchant Scroll, +1 Opt and -2 Daze and some sideboard changes. I like this more controllish version.
4x Quirion Dryad 1x Fastbond 1x Regrowth
4x Gush 4x Brainstorm 4x Merchant Scroll 3x Opt 1x Cunning Wish 1x Mystical Tutor 1x Ancestral Recall 1x Time Walk 1x Echoing Truth 4x Force of Will 2x Misdirection 2x Mana Drain
1x Psychatog
4x Duress 1x Demonic Tutor 1x Vampiric Tutor 1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Black Lotus 1x Mox Emerald 1x Mox Sapphire 1x Mox Jet 1x Strip Mine 3x Flooded Strand 3x Polluted Delta 3x Tropical Island 3x Underground Sea 1x Volcanic Island
-sb- 4x Leyline of the Void 2x Trickbind 2x Red Elemental Blast 1x Berserk 1x Oxidize 1x Hurkyl's Recall 1x Artifact Mutation 1x Energy Flux 1x Fire/Ice 1x Submerge
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« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 08:07:34 am by acidfreak »
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Mon, Goblin Chief
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« Reply #161 on: June 26, 2007, 09:11:23 am » |
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As I replied in the report already, the playstyle is not set in stone and changes against aggro(no counters)/stax. And I'm less holding on to the threats than just playing everything else first to get into a dominant position. If I have nothing better to do, I'll drop turn 1/2 Dryad, sure. Just any cantrip, Scroll, Duress, whatever gets cast first.
I'd never go for the true HulkSmash route because the Dryads allow you to switch gears far easier than tog does and don't require commitment. They just turn up in the game when you have leftover mana and start growing because you keep doing what you did before. Tog is soooo slow if you don't want to pitch your disruption to it. Not to mention they're cheaper. In addition Gush HulkSmash was tried in 2003 and already inferior to GAT back then. Dryads work far better as threats against everything but aggro and stax, where you want to be hyper-aggressive/combolicious anyway (at least pre SB against Stax. Post SB you're far better prepared to play the control or combo-control role with removal + Flux instead of useless MisDs). If only they'd also pitch to FoW.
@AcidFreak: I'm happy you like my approach to the deck. Some comments, though: - Not running the Island in a Stax meta is suicide. - If you expect a real lot of Stax, you might want to run a 19th manasource. This weakens your other matchups, though (the difference in flooding is astonishing). - If your stax run Welder (in France there's a lot of MonoBrown), you might want to consider F/I instead of the third opt. This is nice vs Slaver, too (and you win a SB slot). - If I expect Stax I'd rather run more than less Oxidize SB. Artifact-StP is some good versus 2Spheres, Smokestack and Chalice @ 2. - I think Trickbind is a pretty bad card for the deck, simply because it costs 2, which will usually mean you need two lands. Not much acceleration here. What matchup are these meant for? - I definitly DO like the MD Strip Mine - Do you expect Flash to make a big showing? If not, you can maybe create some SB space by going with 3 Crypt/Planar Void instead. Leylines are really only necessary for Flash, against Ichorid the other hate should do ok, too. - If there's a lot of Slaver, more REBs might be interesting to run, too. Slaver usually wins on early Tinkered/Weldered Titan if it wins, so more defense against that sure is a plus.
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« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 09:14:19 am by Mon, Goblin Chief »
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High Priest of the Church Of Bla
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Smmenen
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« Reply #162 on: June 26, 2007, 11:56:07 am » |
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One of the biggest mistakes people can make with GAT is assuming that it is static either with respect to design or in-game lines of play.
One of the most important lessons of GAT as-the-best deck in 2003 was that although GAT could be beaten, GAT would evolve around the threat it faced and once again emerge as the best deck. GAT evolved in two different shifts in 2003. First, it adapted to fight Rector and then it adapted to fight and beat Stax. First with Coffin Purge to answer Rector and then with cards like Artifact Mutation to answer Stax. GAT has, in its color pool, the absolute best cards in magic and the braodest range of options.
Part of the reason GAT is still going to be so good is simply a reflection of the fact that GAT has built in the best cards in Vintage. It abuses Yawg Will as well if not better than Long decks and certain Gifts decks. It is built around a light mana base that backs in maximum disruption, plenty of countermagic, and incredible spells.
As the metagame shifts, so must GAT change. In line with Team Cab, I think that adding two Drains to the deck may be a good idea if the metagame evolves into a Stax Bomberman metagame. I would start by cutting the Lotus Petal and the 4th Duress for 2 Mana Drains. Eventually I would add a third. This will help provide the midgame counter resources GAT needs to establish itself in the midgame and a deadly tool to overcome Stax. While decks may temporarily be able to beat GAT, if they persist, that is the fault of the lack of creativity and ingenuity on the part of GAT pilots.
The core 50 cards of the GAT deck can remain the same and yet the deck can be built and should be rebuilt to fight the anticipated metagame, not some theorized optimal list.
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« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 03:49:46 pm by Smmenen »
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acidfreak
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« Reply #163 on: June 27, 2007, 08:18:50 am » |
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- Not running the Island in a Stax meta is suicide. - If you expect a real lot of Stax, you might want to run a 19th manasource. This weakens your other matchups, though (the difference in flooding is astonishing). - If your stax run Welder (in France there's a lot of MonoBrown), you might want to consider F/I instead of the third opt. This is nice vs Slaver, too (and you win a SB slot). - If I expect Stax I'd rather run more than less Oxidize SB. Artifact-StP is some good versus 2Spheres, Smokestack and Chalice @ 2. - I think Trickbind is a pretty bad card for the deck, simply because it costs 2, which will usually mean you need two lands. Not much acceleration here. What matchup are these meant for? - I definitly DO like the MD Strip Mine - Do you expect Flash to make a big showing? If not, you can maybe create some SB space by going with 3 Crypt/Planar Void instead. Leylines are really only necessary for Flash, against Ichorid the other hate should do ok, too. - If there's a lot of Slaver, more REBs might be interesting to run, too. Slaver usually wins on early Tinkered/Weldered Titan if it wins, so more defense against that sure is a plus.
Here in Belgium stax and slaver are pretty popular, so that fire/ice seems a good idea although the red mana can be annoying if i have to cut another fetch for a basic. Trickbind can shut down all sorts of stuff, mostly storm. I dont know about how much flash if any there is going to be.
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Mon, Goblin Chief
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« Reply #164 on: June 27, 2007, 10:10:11 am » |
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Well, once you see a Welder hit the table, you just have to prioritize fetching differently. And even a somewhat slow solution for it is better than none, especially against Slaver, which should take some time dumping fat with you fighting over their TfK's like a madman  . F/I (in post SB games with my original list) is one of the reasons I played Ruby over LoA/Strip. Extra red sources can be tech  . As for Trickbind, I believe that SB-cards against Flash have to interact earlier than turn 2. If you're on the draw, you're most likely either dead or have weathered their kill once you have two mana (or you should be in a good position because your opponent doesn't know how to mulligan/had to mulligan into something barely keepable). More REBs seem stronger simply because of their CC. If you're confident in your ability to win the die-roll or draw artifact mana, Trickbind is really good versus Flash though. Still, I have some trouble seeing how you board in 2 REB, 4 Leyline and the Trickbinds without removing some quite important cards from the deck. As for Trickbind vs Storm, if the Storm-spell is not Desire, attacking the kill is still as wrong as it was with Stifle. Those decks usually do run Duress and either cast it before going of or can find it once they maneuvered into a position to go off (or just draw7ed, which leaves you rather unlikely to have Trickbind-access). As for "all sorts of stuff", the basic thing I can see is protecting your lands against Wasteland and countering Slaver. I hope you didn't plan boarding in Trickbind vs ControlSlaver, Stax and Fish, though. I'm not saying Trickbind is horrible, but I think there are definitly more powerfull options for the SB than Trickbind.
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High Priest of the Church Of Bla
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Mon, Goblin Chief
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« Reply #165 on: June 27, 2007, 06:43:42 pm » |
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Sorry for the double-post, but this posts content is independent from the one I made before, so I didn't want to just randomly edited it into my post. I have been testing the MD matchup against up-to -date Slaver lately (Mickael Lelouche's list from the CdF -Crypt - DA + Gifts to make it sixty) and to my surprise the matchup with this list instead of more standard Slaver is very close to even with a very slight edge to GAT. Duress and faciliated access to TfK (and Gifts, with Welder on the table) through Merchant Scroll made it hard for GAT to actually keep Titan from hitting. Now, control-decks are supposed to be GAT's best matchup. With difficult matchups for GAT in Stax and (in the MD) Ichorid, I'm slowly getting the impression that we WON'T enter another era of GAT domination. Now I'm not saying GAT isn't one of the greatest decks of all time any more. What I'm saying is that, in contrast to 2003, the other decks actually don't just flat out loose to it and the metagame will probably be able to adjust to its existence this time around*. Obviously you could tune GAT to smash Slaver (you can tune pretty much any deck to beat any other if you drive it far enough and GAT is especially customizable), but you'd give up a lot of percentage against other decks by doing so. The point I'm driving at is that, opposite to my first impressions, I'm slowly starting to think the DCI was right. Gush isn't utterly broken any more. In my opinion it seems as if GAT will definitly be one of the tier1 decks, but I don't think GAT will dominate the metagame like it did in 2003. And because GAT is really good versus turn 1/2 combo-decks like Flash, the unrestriction of Gush will probably actually slow down the metagame in a relevant way. Which is the greatest thing that happened to T1 in a long time. Ever since we first unleashed Gifted onto the T1 metagame, Vintage has been a race for the faster and faster kill/lockdown. This tendency is, for the moment at least, finally reverting. When I look at what I start to sense to be the coming metagame, it looks far better than it has for a long time. (I loved playing Gifted, mind you, but it's influence on the metagame was horrible. As nothing could beat it in the lategame, everything had to try to get faster and faster and focussed more and more on the three sickest cards in the game, Will, Necro and Bargain, in that order. I'm thankful it is gone. Not to mention playing it got boring in the end, as I knew pretty much all the Gifts-piles by heart  ). I think that, instead of saying "is the dci crazy or what" I'll probably be congratulating them on finding the solution for T1's growing speed and actually making the bold and courageous (and really unpopular, I mean who didn't think they were crazy when they made the announcement?) move necessary to implement it. GAT will completely shake the metagame as we know it, true. But I think in the end it will give us a better metagame than we have had in a damn long time, where games ending between turn 1 and 3 will be rarer than they have been since Champions of Kamigawa at least.** *This actually is a testament of how necessary Gush's restriction was the first time around. Compare the decks that were played in 2003 to todays decks and you will just laugh at them - any deck but Shining and Long, at least. If you could take any of todays viable decks (Fish aside as it's not a deck based on raw power but on answers) to 2003, you'd probably dominate the metagame the same way GAT did back then. GAT was a 2007 deck in a 2003 field. In comparison that's like taking 4 FoF MonoBlue into a field full of pre-Saga "The Deck". A bloodbath. **Realizing this makes me really curious if unrestricting other cards we think would be crazy might not be actually a good idea. Unrestricting Gifts would be utterly stupid, though, in all honesty. I expected it to be on the list a year ago already and I hope people stop implying it should ever come back. Now Burning Wish however... *drools over The Shining* J/k (I think. I'd definitly rather see Burning Wish unrestricted than Gifts). I'd be really interested in the actual effect unrestricted FoF would have on the meta, for example.
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 04:58:24 am by Mon, Goblin Chief »
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High Priest of the Church Of Bla
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XmeloncholicX
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« Reply #166 on: July 01, 2007, 04:08:52 pm » |
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I've been working on getting a version of GAT together here's what i've got so far.
Artifacts 1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire
Creatures 1 Psychatog 4 Quiron Dryad 3 Street Wraith
Enchantments 1 Fastbond
Insants 1 Ancestral Recall 4 Brainstorm 1 Cunning Wish 4 Force of Will 4 Gush 3 Misdirection 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor
Sorceries 1 Demonic Tutor 4 Duress 4 Merchant Scroll 1 Regrowth 1 Time Walk 1 Yawgmoth's Will
Land 1 Library of Alexandria 3 Flooded Strand 3 Polluted Delta 3 Tropical Island 3 Underground Sea 1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard 2 Tormod's Crypt 3 Yixlid Jailer 2 Artifact Mutation 1 Berserk 1 Echoing Truth 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Rebuild 1 Fire/Ice 1 Strip Mine 1 Red Elemental Blast 1 Submerge
My meta is mostly Long.dec and there has been some STAX and Manaless Ichorid decks other then that it's pretty diverse. Any thoughts on some tweaks that I should do to my list?
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turqoisehex
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« Reply #167 on: July 01, 2007, 05:38:12 pm » |
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If there's a lot of Stax (VERY hard to beat) i think having 2X art. mutation and 2X oxidize is important, and if there are a lot of welder versions going around (Vs Crusher or Uba) 2X Ground seal and 2X Tormods Crypt (which you already have, and is amazing vs. many other decks)
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #168 on: July 01, 2007, 06:39:03 pm » |
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you're probably gonna want to cut a misd for maindeck bounce if you're in a heavy stax meta. bouncing a lock part can be great for getting yourself to 3-4 mana
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Xman
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« Reply #169 on: July 01, 2007, 09:34:35 pm » |
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Running an Island is Tech. You need at least 1 Island, maybe even 2. But Iw iould cut back to 5 Fetch, and run 1 Island instead. Also, cut to 2 Mis-D & add an Echoing Truth. GAT was a 2007 deck in a 2003 field. In comparison that's like taking 4 FoF MonoBlue into a field full of pre-Saga "The Deck". A bloodbath. & Mon, you are correct. But since GAT was the deck that did that, it has that distinct honor.
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« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 09:41:34 pm by Xman »
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Mon, Goblin Chief
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« Reply #170 on: July 01, 2007, 10:30:55 pm » |
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I see your builduing of Smmenen's last list. With the metagame you describe, Stax seems to be most of a concern because it's the worst matchup. Flash and Ichorid are both adressed through SB Leylines (to some part at least) so it might be good to run these instead of Jailer/Crypt (keeping a single Crypt or Jailor for tutoring up against Ichorid in an otherwise reasonable non-Leyline hand). The already mentioned Island is absolutely essential, imo, as it allows for a safe way to get Gush online (especially vs Stax) while not skipping turn 1 plays. More than one Island are, I think, detrimental to the deck as you have a real urgent need for both g and b mana. As for the anti-Stax SB, it seems Chalice @ 2 means you're cold, pretty much. I think especially if you plan on running double Artifact Mutation you need at least two Oxidize in your SB as well to adress Chalice. The second problem with the anti-stax SB is that you have only one Volcanic. A wasteland will often cut you of your SB cards. A second Volcanic either SB or MD might be advisable. In view of the presence of Stax and "randomness" (which I presume to include control and fish), you might want to have 1-2 Mana Drain MD. The third MisD seems like a likely victim. Lastly, I found myself flooding out in the midgame a lot with 19 manasources already. Don't you have this problem, running 20 and the less-selective Street Wratih? It should bolster your Stax-matchup a bit, I guess.
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High Priest of the Church Of Bla
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XmeloncholicX
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« Reply #171 on: July 02, 2007, 02:22:03 am » |
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So I made some changes and this is where i'm standing right now.
Artifacts 1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire
Creatures 1 Psychatog 4 Quiron Dryad 3 Street Wraith
Enchantments 1 Fastbond
Insants 1 Ancestral Recall 4 Brainstorm 1 Cunning Wish 4 Force of Will 4 Gush 2 Misdirection 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Echoing Truth
Sorceries 1 Demonic Tutor 4 Duress 4 Merchant Scroll 1 Regrowth 1 Time Walk 1 Yawgmoth's Will
Land 1 Library of Alexandria 1 Island 3 Flooded Strand 2 Polluted Delta 3 Tropical Island 3 Underground Sea 1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard 2 Tormod's Crypt 2 Yixlid Jailer 2 Oxidize 2 Artifact Mutation 1 Berserk 1 Echoing Truth 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Rebuild 1 Fire/Ice 1 Strip Mine 1 Submerge
Some other changes i'm considering are taking out the 3 Street Wraiths and putting in possibly 2 Mana Drains and 1 more Volcanic Island. Any thoughts?
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« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 02:27:38 am by XmeloncholicX »
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Grand Inquisitor
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« Reply #172 on: July 02, 2007, 07:16:22 am » |
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Basic Island - considering the worst matchup is Stax, essential
Mana Count - I ran 19 with two opts, and didn't feel flooded very often. In fact, every mulligan I had was 0 lands, and it happened a little too often for my liking. I SB up to 20 (+1 volcanic) and I found it worked fine with a SB full of red cards.
Approach to Stax - We have a lot of staxless in NE, which is pretty distinctive from regular stax, and especially mono brown. Since it's largely reliant on grave, my SB strategy usually looks something like:
-4 Dryad -2 Opt -2 MisD -1 Cunning Wish
+4 Leyline ot Void +1 E Flux +1 Artifact Mutation +1 Oxidize +1 Naturalize +1 Rebuild (this will probably become either oxidize or R&R)
My own adjustments (not that they're original, but they're distinct from a lot of the popular builds being pushed)-
Regrowth - I've always found this underwhelming given that it's often dead early, it's not blue, it's affected by grave hate, and since you have to pick the target on announcement (as opposed to merchant, DT, VT, MT) that a good opponent can leverage that information against you while it's on the stack. This deck is plenty tight, and I'd rather have other things, like...
Fire/Ice - I ran two of these MD, and they were excellent all day against just about everything. In a single tournament they hit: welders, bobs, mindcensors, magus ot moon (very key), dryad, akroma (last two were to tap). It also tapped a volcanic (shutting off pyroblast) to win me one game in the finals. Because the card is multi-modal, the better you are, the better it becomes. It's good in your bad matchups, it cycles, and it pitches. What more do you want?
LoA - If you're not running this card, you're severely disadvantaged. It's absolutely disgusting with Gush. It wins mirrors. It causes opponents to consider DT and VT more seriously. It taps for 1. It's quite awesome.
Quirion Dryad - I found myself siding down to 2-3 or taking them out completely (stax, mirror, combo). I'm not sure if this was always the correct play, but it felt right. This deck wants to get it's engine going, and once it hits a threshold of mana/cards, it's over. Quirion Dryad is great against fish, but I expect to see less and less of that. Like Mons and Shay, I play this much more like a control into combo deck, very rarely going aggro. This is a grey area for strategy, mostly because the deck is so flexible tactically. I think it's worth discussing in more detail.
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There is not a single argument in your post. Just statements that have no meaning. - Guli
It's pretty awesome that I did that - Smmenen
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Mon, Goblin Chief
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« Reply #173 on: July 02, 2007, 12:13:20 pm » |
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@XmeloncholicX: Removing cantrips, even Street Wraith, for more lands/spells disrupts the natural flow of the deck. I don't think that would be a wise idea. The only replacements for Wraith are imo Opt or Sleight. Basic Island - considering the worst matchup is Stax, essential
Mana Count - I ran 19 with two opts, and didn't feel flooded very often. In fact, every mulligan I had was 0 lands, and it happened a little too often for my liking. I SB up to 20 (+1 volcanic) and I found it worked fine with a SB full of red cards.
Approach to Stax - We have a lot of staxless in NE, which is pretty distinctive from regular stax, and especially mono brown. Since it's largely reliant on grave, my SB strategy usually looks something like:
-4 Dryad -2 Opt -2 MisD -1 Cunning Wish
+4 Leyline ot Void +1 E Flux +1 Artifact Mutation +1 Oxidize +1 Naturalize +1 Rebuild (this will probably become either oxidize or R&R)
My own adjustments (not that they're original, but they're distinct from a lot of the popular builds being pushed)-
Regrowth - I've always found this underwhelming given that it's often dead early, it's not blue, it's affected by grave hate, and since you have to pick the target on announcement (as opposed to merchant, DT, VT, MT) that a good opponent can leverage that information against you while it's on the stack. This deck is plenty tight, and I'd rather have other things, like...
Fire/Ice - I ran two of these MD, and they were excellent all day against just about everything. In a single tournament they hit: welders, bobs, mindcensors, magus ot moon (very key), dryad, akroma (last two were to tap). It also tapped a volcanic (shutting off pyroblast) to win me one game in the finals. Because the card is multi-modal, the better you are, the better it becomes. It's good in your bad matchups, it cycles, and it pitches. What more do you want?
LoA - If you're not running this card, you're severely disadvantaged. It's absolutely disgusting with Gush. It wins mirrors. It causes opponents to consider DT and VT more seriously. It taps for 1. It's quite awesome.
Quirion Dryad - I found myself siding down to 2-3 or taking them out completely (stax, mirror, combo). I'm not sure if this was always the correct play, but it felt right. This deck wants to get it's engine going, and once it hits a threshold of mana/cards, it's over. Quirion Dryad is great against fish, but I expect to see less and less of that. Like Mons and Shay, I play this much more like a control into combo deck, very rarely going aggro. This is a grey area for strategy, mostly because the deck is so flexible tactically. I think it's worth discussing in more detail.
I completely agree that one of the decks biggest strengths is the fact that it can play nearly all three roles of the classic archetype triangle. Here's something I posted as a respone in my tournament record, but considering it pretty much explains my view on the matter, I suppose it actually rather belongs here, so I'll cite the relevant parts: One of the most frightening things about playing against GAT is the fact that you can never be sure what you are up against. It is the only true aggro-combo-control hybrid deck (I don't count Bomberman because it tends to play horrible if it's truely played in combo-deck-mode and the aggro-side of the aggro-control package isn't very good, consisting of 2/x beatdown. Bomberman is a control-deck that manages to mimic combo or aggro-control in an acceptable way if it chooses to. It usually still wins as a control-deck). When you evaluate your hand against GAT, you are never sure what you really need. Will GAT have the control-draw (your hand should be stable mana, carddrawing you can cast turn 2-3 and a mana drain)? Will it have the aggro draw (you better have some kind of actual business plus a way to protect it or redundant business in hand, otherwise Dryad is gonna eat you alive while they trade pitch-counters and Duress for your carddrawing)? Or do you need the Force of Will because they have drawn the dreaded turn 1 Fastbond and go combo on you (most games that start with a natural Fastbond and Gush on turn 1 end effectively on turn 2)? This triplicity makes it incredibly hard to evaluate your starting hand against GAT. Just imagine the control-draw (that has a good chance of beating a GAT control-hand) against a turn 1 Dryad draw with active FoW and a Gush in hand (yes, if you don't have anything better to do turn 1/2 you do drop a Dryad, "standard"-playstyle be damned. Also never forget that, if you Duress a hand that you probably won't be able to out-control because it is full of card-drawing, shifting into aggro-mode to make the game about tempo not CA can be a great plan). Against a normal deck, you know what to mulligan for (combo = FoW and Duress, control see above). Against GAT and its Dryads, a mulligan into the wrong kind of hand depending solely on what type of draw GAT has this time is the same thing as a loss. These freebie games for GAT add up in the long run.
And this incertitude influences not only your mulligan-decisions but also your correct line of play in the early game. Imagine a servicable hand where you can Scroll on turn 1 without FoW in hand. Against combo you'd obviously go for a FoW here. Against GAT? FoW might be a horrible choice because they have a pure control-draw where Mana Drain or Ancestral would have been the order of the day and FoWs two for one nature might cost you dearly. But if they have the Fastbond + Gush and Scroll, you might as well be dead if you don't take FoW. Or imagine GAT starts with turn 1 Fastbond while you have FoW. If they have the necessary Gushes to go crazy, not countering it will kill you, so you have to stop it. But if their draw is actually control heavy with lots of cantrips, a counter and maybe a Merchant Scroll but no Gush, you just gave them a free 2 for 1 that included one of the most important cards in the control-fight that will now follow, a counter (If I have a turn 1 Fastbond, I'll almost always play it ASAP. I'll only defend it if my hand actually allows me to go crazy on the spot. Otherwise I either have a nice 2 for 1 or I'm all set to go crazy later on at no cost). And once you start thinking about SBing, this gets even more insane. Do you SB creature-removal in (against aggressive Dryad-draws)? Do you SB it out (because they're dead in the control fights and the dead draw is what might allow them to draw away in the CA fight)? Do you bring in (or keep) Tormod's Crypt because GAT's Will can become lethal so incredibly fast - again depending on their draw? The correct SBing strategy will be a balancing act between multiple contradictory elements and if you draw SB-cards that don't match the kind of draw GAT has, you might as well have boarded blanks, being actually weaker due to having SBed.
The problem is that you have no way to actually know what the right play (or deck-configuration) is in these situations before you actually play the game out and you might end up giving them the win by deciding wrongly. That is the reason why Duress is probably the best (non-broken) turn 1 play against GAT. It defends against all three strategies and, most importantly, it shows you what their gameplan will be this game and what is actually worth fighting about (note that GATs plan might change at a moments notice just because their cantrips dug them into a different plan, though).
I think Flores put it as "presenting a bag of oranges" to your opponents hate/angle of attack in context with metagaming and transformational SBing lately. The beauty of GAT is that it doesn't need any fancy SB or metagaming for this but can always randomly do this simply through being three decks in one: An insane control deck with a possible combo endgame in Will/Fastbond, a great aggro-control deck with creatures that outclass any creatures the actual aggro-decks run and a good, if limited (because of the early Fastbond-bottle neck), combo-deck. Now as for SBing out all the Dryads, I've never SBed that radically with the deck, to be honest (btw, what did you remove to put in the Volcanic, it's not in your SBing list?). I usually go to 1-2 Dryads + Tog against combo, I'd just hate to not be able to pitch the Tog away early because I'm not running any other wincondition any more (and I'd even be doubtful having to win against Stax with nothing but a few Artifact Mutation tokens, too). I'd definitly not do this against the mirror because if you do that early Dryads suddenly become actually dangerous and you have to waste counters on them to not die before you've pulled far enough ahead (depending on how much removal you SB in, that is. If you have like 3 Smother and 2 Submerge post SB, Dryads are suddenly rather weak. The removal doesn't draw cards either, though). On the other hand, I'd usually prefer just having my own Dryads to answer theirs. Just in case they actually boarded them out and now I get the four sweet threats). I btw think that GAT, as straight-forward as it looks - is still probably the best deck for someone who likes to get intimately familiar with a single deck instead of randomly hopping between archetypes. In my testing a lot of games that I loose could be won if I simply would be familiar enough with the deck to intuitively be able to decide when it's time to switch gears. The deck can do it so fluently that I think perfect play would require you to follow a dance of shifting at least from control to aggro back to control back into aggro and from there into either combo or control during pretty much every single game if you want to maximize your advantages and keep the opponent off-balance as to what is actually going on. The problem with this is that the points you should shift at often exist for only a single turn (afterwards shifting will actually sacrifice more of your position than it is worth and will actively loose you the game) and I have real problems recognizing them in time to actually act on them (and not think "damn, if only I had dropped that Dryad three turns ago instead of representing Mana Drain against his topdeck" a few turns later). This also entails decisions when it is or isn't worth to protect your Dryad. I have let Slaver bounce a Dryad that was going to be lethal the turn after without a fight in testing and won the game because of it. In other games, though, it is correct to just try to get there with the Dryad, pitching all your counterspells and carddrawing away to stop that Echoing Truth and ride the tempo to a win. The problem is actually figuring out which kind of game you are in this time. This is what would make the ability to recognize those switch-points intuitively so powerful, because the opponent never knows what you're actually doing. If he sets up for a fight over that Dryad and all you actually care about is him wasting his Merchant Scroll so that it doesn't find a counter for Fastbond, that can be quite bad for him. It somewhat reminds me of Flores' piece on sculpting the endgame, where for the whole game you plan out how you'll win lategame on Demonfire (Will/Fastbond) while pretending to the opponent that you're trying to win with Elephants (Dryads). Just with the added element that in GAT at least half the games you actually plan to just win with the Elephants, so the opponent hasn't won anything once he's wise to your plan. And worse, you will seemingly at random (due to topdecks) decide to suddenly change plans in the middle of the match - but without the retributions for picking the wrong plan before because you're using the perfect moment in time to actually make that change of plans. Sometimes it's actually correct with this deck to FoW an Echoing Truth targeting your Dryad during one turn and than not Mana Drain the second Echoing Truth the turn after. Often either play is just wrong. On Regrowth: I definitly agree that it's the weakest non-creature card in the deck (especially because it isn't blue so you can't just ditch it if it's dead early). I'd remove creatures from the deck, actually, but I feel that the tactical advantage of being able to change roles so fluently outstrips the advantage adding another 1-2 cards to the deck that are, in a vacuum, more powerful than the Dryads. Well, I think F/I: I can see where it is good, especially because doubling as a cantrip is always nice. LoA: I've been testing with it lately, too. Some games it's just rubbish but others it's so godlike, it's hard to believe. I agree that it is rather easy to get back up to seven with the deck (especially preboard when they usually don't have REBs in addition to all those other counters). In a field with enough control and mirror-matchups, this card should most likely be MDed. If there is a lot of combo and Stax, I might just SB it. I have to agree though that cutting it completely from my CdF list was a mistake. Quirion Dryad: I might want to cut one from the MD if I wasn't convinced that the presence of the full four is what allows the fluent switching. So I don't want to remove any and rather train myself to recognize the situations where to switch smoothly. As said before, I still completely agree on SB out some in matchups where assignement of role doesn't matter (like against combo. Quite obviously, they are aggro)
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High Priest of the Church Of Bla
Proud member of team CAB.
"I don't have low self-esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else." - Daria
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XmeloncholicX
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« Reply #174 on: July 03, 2007, 04:54:00 pm » |
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Has anyone ever tried Impulse? I was thinking about playtesting 3 Impulse vice 3 Street Wraith. Everytime I playtest I always cut it close with the lifeloss.
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Scyther
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Posts: 100
RaNd0m
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« Reply #175 on: July 04, 2007, 10:55:13 am » |
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I think with an opposing Aven Mindcenso on the board we have definitely enough Impulses in the dec... And even without them the dec is stuffed kwith CC2 Spells and Chalice2 is more threatening than on 1.
If you don't like SW CC1 Cantrips should be superior.
I#m a bit curious why no one tried to maindeck the Berserk. I think at the moment it belongs in there. With only 1 Wish which is often used to find an answer it mostly didn't find the Berserk. It also helps to kill waay faster. The only way I used the 'zerk in the Board was within the Wil+ Fastbond Turn. This happens not thaat often... So to just swing in the last 15 dmg or so with more Tutors (Scroll on Mystical) is also much easier and not that manaintensive. Sounds like a good idea to me ^^
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Unrestrict: Ponder, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal Kill: Time Vault un-errata: Illusionary Mask !!!
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Xman
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Posts: 121
Something Clever Goes Here.
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« Reply #176 on: July 04, 2007, 11:40:19 am » |
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I#m a bit curious why no one tried to maindeck the Berserk. I think at the moment it belongs in there. With only 1 Wish which is often used to find an answer it mostly didn't find the Berserk. It also helps to kill waay faster. The only way I used the 'zerk in the Board was within the Wil+ Fastbond Turn. This happens not thaat often... So to just swing in the last 15 dmg or so with more Tutors (Scroll on Mystical) is also much easier and not that manaintensive. Sounds like a good idea to me ^^
Because you usually don't need Berserk to win. It is a card to get you through tons of problems. And is has been tried maindecked. Some of the earliest, umm, new?, 4 Gush GAT decks ran it main. But it was cut to the board to run Cunning Wish because you don't always need it, as well as wish doing wonders You can always wish for something else, but if you are doing your job, they shouldn't have to many creatures on the board, bounce them, and wander through for the kill. As for impulese, yes, under a mindcensor, it is definatly better thgan tutors & fetchs, but that shouldn't be the only reason to run it. Playing around Censor is not so bad in GAT. Especially if you can get online early. I think as people start to see it more often, it will hit less than i does right now. Yes, it will still hit hard, ut I think people will be ready to play around it.
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SCG P9 Indy - 21st (5-2-1)
Living back in a world where Vintage is played. YEA!
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Addolorisi
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« Reply #177 on: July 04, 2007, 11:49:58 am » |
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I#m a bit curious why no one tried to maindeck the Berserk. I think at the moment it belongs in there. With only 1 Wish which is often used to find an answer it mostly didn't find the Berserk I spoke with one person who felt the format was too fast to support wishing for zerk, but his build was a lot more aggressive than mine was. The problem with your situation is that it's not a speed concern, it's a concern of increasing the utility of wish. If you really want to be able to wish for an answer and have the ability to zerk ftw afterwards, you're going to be forced to run either 1 wish/ 1 zerk main or 2 wish. In about half the times I wish for zerk, the wish itself is critical to having lethal damage on zerk, which would leave me 1-2 points shy if I had simply eschewed the wish for maindeck zerk (and consequently a turn slower). The singleton wish is something I'm not thrilled about, as in the past I've loved being able to either pitch a wish for FoW early, grab a relevent SB card, still have the option of grabbing the zerk, and do neat things like wishing for cards that have been RFG'd to FoW, tog, or even Extirpate. It took me a lot of convincing to cut my second wish, and while it's 1 mana more than 5/7 of my other tutors (which is exacerbated if you have to use one of those tutors to grab the wish), I really think running 2 wishes adds a lot of flexibility. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like you can afford to run the extra flexibility. (I.E. devote 2 slots to zerk/wishes in this format.) But if you do, it seems like simply running a second wish would be stronger than the 1/1 split in the maindeck. The main issue I have with the deck at this point in time is the Regrowth. At this point in time, it is sometimes absolutely key in winning a game (either by letting me cast a 1-of twice or get back a bomb like Fastbond or Will that has been sent rather unfairly into my bin), but spends a lot of time wishing for the situation to present itself to be useful.
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So in conclusion, creatures are bad. Play blue cards instead.
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Scyther
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Posts: 100
RaNd0m
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« Reply #178 on: July 04, 2007, 03:02:31 pm » |
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Umm, yes, I meant splitting Zerk and Wish if you want to say so. The idea I like most is grabbing situational sideboard stuff and beeing able to zerk.
Most times you need a Tutor for the zerk anyway so the Grow effect is the same as like grabbing it with Cunning Wish.
2 Wishes seem not very sexy to me, though. ^^
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Unrestrict: Ponder, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal Kill: Time Vault un-errata: Illusionary Mask !!!
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DerDaniel
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Posts: 5
Greetings from Germany!
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« Reply #179 on: July 04, 2007, 07:56:34 pm » |
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Did anyone of you test Meloku or Vineleasher Kudzu in this Deck? Fastbond + Meloku enables a "pay 1 life: put a 1/1 flying spirit into play"-engine. Isn't that a pretty good win condition? It's like Hatred in a permanent version. Not that it would be really difficult to handle, Echoing Truth or Pyroclsm are pretty common, especially here in Germany. But since winning the game by protecting a (not even very big) Empty the Warrens is a viable killoption, protecting your spirits for 2 turns or finding time walk should be possible. Instead of playing 4 Dryads i changed one of them into Meloku and the other one into a Kudzu. Kudzu seems great to me because you drop a land nearly as often as you cast a spell and this guy gets 2 counters for each fetchland. I first thought of this as some "fun-changes", but i wonder if it is good enough in a competitive deck.
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Never argue with an idiot! He drags you down on his level, then beats you with experience!
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