Keeper-ish 4cControl

[limitedwhole]

If you hadn't noticed, you need to counterspells in the first three turns not tap blue mana to look at your top three cards. 

Weisman: UGS play duress take bomb.  Done

Player two: Umm, accelerant bomb number 2...you lose.

OR

Wisman USG, go.

Player two: Umm accelrant, bomb.

Weisman: Disrupt, Draw a card.

Weisman: untap, volcanic, you lose.

If you can't see why brainstorm and duress suck you don't understand tempo. 

Fetchlands are attrocious.  In a format based around flurries of instants, everytime you tap a fetchland you wasteland yourself tempo wise because it goes on the stack.  Oh and the pipe dream of fetching an island is BS.  Weissman needs its off color mana particularly red and must get it out.  Holding back a fetchland is death because it will go on the stack at a crucial time which can be responded to, cutting you off from critical mana.  They are crap, period.  Numnuts Oscar Tan told you to put them in and you did it blindly.

"Brainstorm is GARBAGE.

Weisman has to have the right answers to win.  All the right answers are cheap blue counterspells. "

You forgot that last line.  For newbs.
In the upper right hand corner of a card is the mana cost.  You have to use this much mana to cast the spell.  Brainstorm costs one blue mana.  Notice how if you use your blue mana to play brainstorm you cannot cast a one blue mana counterspell.  Hence it is GARBAGE.

Oh and sol ring probably gets cut.  Not sure what you would play with it.  Tapping an island to play it is a no-no.  Once you get out of the first three turns you will win so its moot then.  Rack and ruin is terrible.  Run 1 Hurkyl's main or in board and wish for it.  It is cheaper.  All you ever really want to do is bounce a Chalaice for 1 or reset board.

[zeus-online]

Not really sure if i wanted to reply...but here it goes:

Your logic is flawed on so many levels...

Brainstorm helps you dig for answers and throw answers you don't need back in the deck in exchange for usefull cards, combined with fetchlands or other shuffle effects such as demonic tutor it's comparable to ancestral recall.

Here's how duress works in the REAL WORLD...You duress him, if he got two bombs and limited acceleration, you take the acceleration...if he got plenty of acceleration and 1 bomb, you take the bomb...The goal here is to stall him for 1 or 2 turns which enables you to set up your defences (FoW and Drain mostly)
Obviously, if he has the stone cold nuts, then you got no chance...and that would be exactly the same if you where holding Disrupt, force spike, mana leak or whatever.

...oh and here's how fetchlands work...your opponent casts random bomb, you respond by using the fetchland....
Your opponent got a few wastelands on the board, and you can just sit and ignore them because you can respond with the fetch.

And if you really need red mana as heavily as you suggest, then you can use them to get volcanic islands...Fixing your color issues.

Keeper or multi-color control is about buying time to set up proper defenses, and while disrupt and mana leak can be good they are more situational then duress...Disrupt can get nullified simply by playing a friggin' mox! Mana leak requires you to draw both a land and a mox in order to use it turn one...This does happen frequently, but i'd wager that my chances of getting duress and 1 black mana (Which should be plentifull thanks to fetches, seas and a few artifacts)

Conclusion: If played correctly fetches and brainstorms are auto-includes.

Man, i never thought i'd have to explain why brainstorm and fetches are good.

/Zeus

[limitedwhole]

Brainstorm costs one mana.  It is not an answer in itself.  If you tap a blue mana to cast it you cannot play an answer with that mana.  you will be dead.

Conclusion: It is that freaking obvious.

Hello, and welcome to TMD.  We pride ourselves on maintaining a civil tone of discourse here, one that you have departed from in calling people newbs in your foregoing post and generally being hostile and condescending throughout this thread.  While we ordinarily give newer users a break and a link to the site rules the first time they get out of line, being civil in discussions shouldn't be a new concept for you.  Verbal warning for violation of Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting.  Please change your approach to discussion while here.  -DA   

[MirariKnight]

Brainstorm costs one mana.  It is not an answer in itself.  If you tap a blue mana to cast it you cannot play an answer with that mana.  you will be dead.

Conclusion: It is that freaking obvious.

What about when you have no answers in the hand, but Brainstorm basically Ancestrals for you, you rip the Force of Will and theres your answer? Fetchlands just make it better by shuffling away crap you don't need, so you can find more answers. Fetchlands soften the blow of wasteland with the fragile mana base we run. There are very few reasons to Waste a fetchland. And about getting the colors we need, a Polluted Delta will get every blue dual land, or an Island, so there we go. Do you plan on running all basics or something?
The other benefit of Duress is that you know whats in their hand. You know what you have to counter, what you don't, and what they're trying to do.

[zeus-online]

Brainstorm costs one mana.  It is not an answer in itself.  If you tap a blue mana to cast it you cannot play an answer with that mana.  you will be dead.

Conclusion: It is that freaking obvious.

Well you could use that argument to say that people shouldn't play with ancestral recall, yawgmoth's will and time walk in the deck!

Have you even tried playing with those cards?

/Zeus

[limitedwhole]

Brainstorm costs one mana.  It is not an answer in itself.  If you tap a blue mana to cast it you cannot play an answer with that mana.  you will be dead.

Conclusion: It is that freaking obvious.

What about when you have no answers in the hand, but Brainstorm basically Ancestrals for you, you rip the Force of Will and theres your answer? Fetchlands just make it better by shuffling away crap you don't need, so you can find more answers. Fetchlands soften the blow of wasteland with the fragile mana base we run. There are very few reasons to Waste a fetchland. And about getting the colors we need, a Polluted Delta will get every blue dual land, or an Island, so there we go. Do you plan on running all basics or something?
The other benefit of Duress is that you know whats in their hand. You know what you have to counter, what you don't, and what they're trying to do.

Brainstorm takes up an answer slot.  You are removing answers from your deck in order to tap blue mana to find a card which throws cards away.  It is terrible.  What you guys are saying is simply all rehash from 2000.  Weissman needs to be fast like Buehler's draw-go.  If you can stall out the first two turns, shaman wins almost all games.

1 Pithing needle goes main by the way.

[limitedwhole]

Brainstorm costs one mana.  It is not an answer in itself.  If you tap a blue mana to cast it you cannot play an answer with that mana.  you will be dead.

Conclusion: It is that freaking obvious.

Well you could use that argument to say that people shouldn't play with ancestral recall, yawgmoth's will and time walk in the deck!

Have you even tried playing with those cards?

/Zeus

No you couldn't.  The distinction is that those cards don't take up answer slots.  On turn 1 brainstorm is terrible.  on turn 2 brainstorm is terrible.  on turn 3 brainstorm is mildly better but still terrible.  It gets played often fast and doesn't count as a full blue card for purposes of force counts.  I just love hoping for a five percent chance of brainstorming into a Force so I can throw my mana drain away when I could just cast manaleak/disrupt/etc.

You guys really need to go back and question your assumptions.  You are just repeating what people said in 2000 without looking at the context.  Weissman isn't too slow. It is in fact one of the best decks in the format and has been for years.  No one ever bothered to cut the chaff because "it does cool tricks" and put in the right answers.  Properly built this deck plays like a Draw-go with shaman and broken stuff.  Built is heavily oriented against control and combo, and board in tinker, 2X Platinum angel for the other matchups.  The heavy amount of disrupts and cheap counters will prevent Ichorid from stripping your hand, and let you tinker up the angel.  Plat wins all the aggro matchs.  A low mana curve counterbase wins all the others.

 

[limitedwhole]

Your logic is flawed on so many levels...
/Zeus

No its not.

BTW, i am a logician.  I went to school to get a masters degree in logic.  on the otherhand a keen eye notes, Ad Verecundian, Ignoratio Elenchi, Petitio Principii, and Accident littered above.

Ad Hominem, Argument from Authority, Red Herring, Asseveration.  See how two can play at that game?  -DA

P.S.-BTW moderator, I am not trying to be mean, I am simply trying to shock these guys out of their lethargy.  Brainstorm is terrible in Weissman. I am right.

[policehq]

I understand your argument about Brainstorm (without testing I can't agree or disagree), but what you say about Duress confuses me.

You want cheap answers to specific spells, right? And naturally, you want the cards to be good at any stage of the game.

Disrupt, Mana Leak, other cards you've recommended are not hard answers throughout the game. Duress absolutely is. Especially given Zeus's example of how Duress works in the early game (take their acceleration, leave them with expensive bombs, take a bomb, leave the appropriate acceleration for that bomb), do you still argue that it is a bad choice?

Spell Snare and Nix have been given a lot of discussion on these forums, and I'm very surprised Annul would be recommended over either of them when Flash and GroATog are heavily played decks (and have no artifacts or enchantments of absolute importance - but Fastbond is a counter target).

-hq

[LordHomerCat]

What happens when you draw your amazing Disrupt against Stax?  Or that awesome Hurkyl's Recall when you are playing against Gro?  What about if you just draw more lands than you like, or not enough for that matter?  Brainstorm fixes all of that.  If you don't want to cast Brainstorm on turn 2 because you have drain up, then don't, just cast drain instead.  But what happens when you don't have drain, and they have an extra land to pay for your Disrupt?  I know I would rather have Brainstorm to have a chance at getting Force of Will.  You say that the deck plays like Draw-Go, but you don't want to play brainstorm, or any kind of draw engine, and just plan to draw all your answers at the right time off the top?  You can't possibly hope to counter every single possible draw spell, and what happens when your opponent starts casting brainstorms and shuffling away his extra lands and you are just stuck holding them in hand, and don't have a counter for every possible card?

I'm also unsure why you claim to like playing a 4 color deck but hate fetchlands.  Fetchlands are pretty much the only way to play a deck with this shaky of a manabase and expect to a) have your colors on time and b) not get wasted into oblivion every game.

I guess I have a hard time understanding how anyone who has played any amount of vintage can dislike Brainstorm + Fetch.

One last thing, you claim you win every game that goes past turn 3, but I don't understand or believe that in the least.  Have you actually played against Gro?  In my experience, the deck has an actual draw engine, and a very easy time resolving Ancestral, which just seems like it would blow you out since you don't have any draw of your own and plan to 1-for-1 every spell your opponents play.

[limitedwhole]

You guys are still missing this basic and fundamental point.  Brainstorm costs blue mana which you need to play answers in order to find answers you can no longer play after using the one blue for brainstorm.  By the way, I haven't posted a list, how would you know that I don't have a draw engine?  Recursed Ancestral, Fact, Cunning Wish for Scrying?  Keeper never had a hard time drawing cards (or finding them for that matter).  It just has to make early tempo plays against all these fast decks.  Hence the need for cheap blue counter spells.  Note, how annul is in the board and comes in versus workshop to replace disrupts. 

What happens when you draw brainstorm against any deck?  You use your blue mana to pray for Force instead of just playing the answer which should have been in its place anyways.  i.e. you lose.

[limitedwhole]

I understand your argument about Brainstorm (without testing I can't agree or disagree), but what you say about Duress confuses me.

You want cheap answers to specific spells, right? And naturally, you want the cards to be good at any stage of the game.

Disrupt, Mana Leak, other cards you've recommended are not hard answers throughout the game. Duress absolutely is. Especially given Zeus's example of how Duress works in the early game (take their acceleration, leave them with expensive bombs, take a bomb, leave the appropriate acceleration for that bomb), do you still argue that it is a bad choice?

-hq

It isn't that duress is a bad card, in fact it's a staple of the format.  It just isn't Weissman.  It's Kim.  If I tap my mana to play duress, my opponent gets to untap and unload his second bomb while I have tapped mana.  If instead, I hold up mana leak, he has to tap his mana to play a bomb of his choice.  this allows me to put another island in play before he gets to play his second bomb, meaning that he is running into drain.  The main problem with duress in a control deck is that it gives my opponent an untap phase before I get to play another island.  Let's say I play duress and see bomb + merchant scroll.  If I take the bomb, he casts scroll while I have mana tapped.  If I take the scroll he casts the bomb while I have mana tapped.  On the other hand, if I hold my mana open, he plays the spell of his choice and I counter.  This is effectively a timewalk for me allowing me to get another island in play.  Does that make sense?

i am not so concerned about having all my cards be good the whole game as I am strangling my opponent in the early game and cleaning up with shaman.  Once the shaman hits, most decks fold.  The buyback spellblast is an excellent cunning wish taregt to lock down a game.  Burning Wish for Recall will let me discard the flack in the midgame to get back my hard counters and draw., etc.

Fetchlands are another matter entirely.  For one, no good decks except Workshop play Wasteland.  Combo doesn't, combo control doesn't.  Annul and Manaleak rape Workshop.  BEB kills the welder.  Shaman removes their cheap artifacts.  Weisman has excellent game against Workshop as it is.  Be that as it may, if there are no stifles and needles where you are than by all means play them.  I think they are terrible in the mirror.  However, currently there aren't any weissman decks.  If the deck was viable and became good, I would definately not play fetches.

It's not that BRainstorm, Duress, and Fetchlands aren't good.  They are.  But so is fastbond.  So is Chrome mox.  etc.  They just aren't the right cards for weissman.  These builds look more like Kim than weissman.  I will try to work up a list and post it.  Right now I am playing mono-blue draw go.  Give me a week or so.

[limitedwhole]

Alright here is a templated list (that is not tweaked).  Weissman as an archetype that can take on all comer is dead in effect because it cannot afford to run a stock list.  It has to be metagamed correctly to target specific decks.  Doing so drives particular decks out of the metagame.  Once this is done for a bit, Weissman can afford to move towards a dominate stock list.  In order to do that you have to accept some losses in game one and deal with them via the sideboard.  Something like goblins is fairly rare at the top tables so it is best to ignore it and just sideboard against them.  Weissman doesn't seed the first game entirely as wishes can still win these matches but they are tougher.  Here is a focused list that comes right out and strangles the opponent, then eradictaes his mana base.  The only bullet in the maindeck is pithing needle which doubles as land destruction (and shaman's of course).  Notice how this deck takes allot pain and doesn't have a very sound plan against aggro (almost none).  It plans to board major hosers against these decks and a fast win condition to steal games two and three.  On the other hand this deck eradicates combo, GAT, other control decks, etc.

Note of Curisiosity:
Recall instead of YAwgmoth's Will:  Recall is blue instead of black, black spells have been reduced to a minimum.  YAwgmoth's Will can't recurse counterspells and can't get back Strip+WAsteland.  It can't get interdicts, etc.

Finally, I have no board, but Pyroclasm is assured.  Boarding in Sol Ring, Tinker, 2X Platinum Angel is solid versus aggro.  Skeletal scrying is an excellent cunning wish target and can be boarded in versus control and combo.  This list is by no means optimal, but it gives you a good idea of a metagames Weisman versus a combo/GAT/ Control field.  The fundamental paradigm has shifted.  Previously, Weissman needs W mana in game one and Red mana in game two.  Aggro was is primary concern.  Now Kim decks (like Gat) and combo are it primary concerns.  Aggro is so narrow is dies easily to the sideboard, so it is best to just win games 2 and 3 aggainst it and destroy the powerful decks.


Spells: 33
Ancestral
Walk
Recall
Cunning Wish
Mystical
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Burning Wish
Mindtwist
2 Interdict
4 Disrupt
4 Manaleak
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Red Elemental Blast
Pithing Needle
3 Gorilla Shaman

Mana: 27
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Library of Alexandria
4 City of Brass
4 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Shivan Reef
Strip Mine
3 Wasteland