[Deck]Tyrant Blue - (Kid Tested, TMD approved)

[unicoerner]

Let´s create a very common scenario:
Turn 1: drop Remora plus offc. Mox
Turn 2: Pay 1 drop another land  /2 Mana open
Turn 3: Pay 2 drop again/2 Mana open

Turn 4: Pay 3 / 1 mana open
or sac remora

I think after this it´s too complex to go on.

But if you don´t hit a second acceleration in the second turn you can`t cast the Meditate under it.
And we can`t cast Meditate in one turn and drop a thread, because we are still too short on mana. This could come on turn 5 or 6 and even then we can just drop a useless 5/5 or 4/4 or a slaver and now we are open to action.
Ok now i have pretty often drain+ 2 Pitch counter in hand, but drain is outtapped pretty useless.

If we have try to meditate in their endstep, for me the normal play, we have to sac remora and give them an open Mainphase.

[DarkfnTemplar]

Im assuming mediatate at their endstep with all mana open correct?

Anyways, Ive played this deck a number of times on mws and I just find it mediocre. This has nothing on what gifts used to be, and I think some of the card choices are just wrong.
So what do I suggest?
Well, if you want  to keep the deck true to its nature and less the suck, I think DSC should have a spot in the mainboard.
Meditate should be cut for any draw spell that costs 3 mana. I dont like the idea of spending those four cards I drew defending myself for two turns in a row. Meditate is nice because It almost guarantees you a counter, but its not a good trade off in the end especially versus your 50% or worse match ups. Any aggro deck would love another turn to swing at your face.
Remora is a good idea. I find that people are very afraid of it and it time walks sometimes. Its a good idea, but needs work.

EDIT: why is twister in here?

[Rock Lee]

The original list has been changed from its original inception. Almost to the point of needing a new Thread. But I suppose the evolution of the deck is nice to see.

The current list being run (as Harle has commented on, and we are running) is as follows:

// Lands
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Polluted Delta
    3  Flooded Strand
    6  Island
    2  Tropical Island

// Creatures
    3  Tidespout Tyrant
    1  Darksteel Colossus
    1  Jace Beleren

// Spells
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Meditate
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Jet
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Misdirection
    4  Force of Will
    3  Mana Drain
    4  Mystic Remora
    1  Mox Emerald
    2  Show and Tell
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Tinker
    1  Mindslaver
    3  Repeal
    1  Brain Freeze

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3  Oath of Druids
SB: 4  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Spell Snare
SB: 1  Thran Foundry
SB: 1  Platinum Angel

Most of the choices there are obvious. And the reason I am posting our most upto-date list is because we have answered the "problems" people have stated exist with the deck in this list. Normally we don't post decklists before a tournament, only afterwards if it performs well. However, I'd like to see a showing of Tyrant Blue. And I figure this is the best way to represent!

[ELD]

Has the sideboard been enough to get the job done vs the new Mana'd Ichorid?  With such an overwhelming tactical disadvantage, it seems like more hate is necessary to ensure winning game 2 and 3.  Looking over the list, practically every maindeck card is not impactful vs it.  Keeping them in would certainly create tons of dead draws, which is problematic to sweeping post board. 

[sundering jerk]

Hey I don't want to be redundant but I still think this new list auto-loses to half he format. Ichorid, goblins, and shop aggro are still happy to face this deck.

And WHY JACE?! I'd rather have ophidian at that point.

After some serious testing I have found that 15 Tormod's crypts in the side is the optimal number.

P.S. how was Submerge?

[Rock Lee]

Has the sideboard been enough to get the job done vs the new Mana'd Ichorid?  With such an overwhelming tactical disadvantage, it seems like more hate is necessary to ensure winning game 2 and 3.  Looking over the list, practically every maindeck card is not impactful vs it.  Keeping them in would certainly create tons of dead draws, which is problematic to sweeping post board. 

ELD, I can assure you that heavy testing against mana'd ichorid will happen before Myriad this weekend. The previous plan against manaless ichorid was to get plats in any way, asap. I believe the same plan will be in place. I don't see how there isn't sufficient sideboarding space. Sadly I cannot rely on Pithing Needles anymore to stomp my ichorid folk. As Mana'd Ichorid laughs in the face of Needle. Fortunately, it does not laugh in the face of counterspells.

Rough Mana'd-Ichorid SB plan:

OUT:
Meditatex4, Jace, Tidespoutx3, DSC
IN:
Oath of Druidsx3, T Cryptx4, Thran Foundryx1, Platinum Angel

Definetely a highly risky plan. I honestly would almost prefer Blazing Archon in, so I have a 2nd Oath target if one gets Chain of Vapor'd. I still keep the full counter compliment. Remoras might come out if I'm on the draw. Again, more testing is required. I assure you, teeth will be put in, however it be necessary.

Admittedly Ichorid is the weakest matchup by far for this deck. Given the limitation of U & Colorless answers, I believe this SB answers mana-ichorid soundly.

Hey I don't want to be redundant but I still think this new list auto-loses to half he format. Ichorid, goblins, and shop aggro are still happy to face this deck.

And WHY JACE?! I'd rather have ophidian at that point.

After some serious testing I have found that 15 Tormod's crypts in the side is the optimal number.

P.S. how was Submerge?

The deck has poor game against ichorid due to a lack of access to black.
Goblins, isn't played heavily in NE. I do not expect to see many of them scurrying about. Even if so, the matchup is not impossible. Simply no favorable.
Shop Aggro is similar to ichorid, but with a far worse game 2 and 3.

Jace, was covered by Harlequin before. Its a combo win, beats blue, and synergizes with remora.

Trust me, Harle and I were trying to figure out how to get 7 Crypts in the sideboard.

Submerge is amazing at what it does. What we didn't consider, was we already destroy GAT, and Spellsnare assists you against GAT while shoring up other matchups. Submerge, was simply too much overkill.

[unicoerner]

Why do you run Misdirection over Drain? What`s the reason for leaving mystical Tutor out, or am i just overlooking it?
I would call the draw engine passive, because we rely on over opponent to draw cards. On the other side Gush/Thirst and so on are active draws.
I don`t see right now, why we try to abuse another draw engine then Merchant/Anc/Gush/Fastbond? It´s the best draw engine available since a very long time.
I really fell in love with this deck, but it`s not that hard to play around remora.
I am excited to read your next tourney report.

[Harlequin]

I would encourage you to read all the posts in the thread more closely, because some of those points have already been discussed.

What has not yet been addressed is what you call "Active" Draw vrs "Passive" Draw.  The deck is very passive, but the plan is to at all stages of the game - out advantage your opponent.  If you have remora down, it starves your own resources.  But even if you are strapped for resources, you still can play your moxen and you still can play brainstorm, and you still can play counterspells.  With remora down, your opponent either gives you 'free' draws, or plays land-go (and the land-go game will always be good for a deck running drains).  Even If they play a dangerous creature and you counter, they have to again decide to give you cards in an attempt to protect thier creature or allow it to be countered. 

As Remora 1 is begining to expire, the deck has either:
A) Drawn into Remora 2
B) Drawn into repeal so you can replay remora
C) Has no repeal, no remora... but enough resources in play, and enough other cards in hand to win

In case A and B, you refresh your remora with roughly 2-3 mana open.  This is where Drain, Meditate, Jace, and Library dominate the game, and if all goes well will put you light years ahead in advantage.

The deck initially started like Oathless Gush-Oath... and It just started to play too much like GAT, and ultimately didn't a {G} way to win the game.  If you like scroll/gush/bond, then play a deck that can abuse it.  This deck really cannot.

[Harlequin]

From another thread:

Hey Jeff. Noah here. I really respect your opinion, but I do have one question. As a long time combo player I'm not sure that Tyrant Blue really DOES have a good game against Combo. In my experience playing with/against combo countermagic is not enough as the combo play can just wait til the right moment and win with Duress/Extirpate backup. Since Misdirection really only PROTECTS FoW for you it's pretty useless on its own and thus you are left almost zilch answers to Combo if they Extirpate your FoW.

I'm not saying Tyrant Blue CAN'T beat combo, I'm just saying that I'm not convinced that it has better game against Combo than GAT or Tyrant Oath that run Duress/Thoughtseize packages. If you give combo time (as this deck seems to do) it'll find a way to get there. Again, please come out and point out if/how I'm wrong as this is mere speculation.

Also, I have a thread going right now on if Xantid Swarm should be incorporated into modern day Long Variants. Woult THIS be a solid answer to Tyrant Blue? How about GAT and Tyrant Oath? I'd really like your opinion on this one as it will most likely shape what direction I try to take my Storm Combo decks in the future.

In my experiance, remora renders duress worthless.  Remora means that I will get to draw before the next threat after duress.  Brainstorm + Remora makes me all but immune to duress in the turn my opponent plans to win.

Misdirrection insures that the Force or drain will stick to the spell I am countering.  Remember that I am the control deck, I will lickly not keep a hand that has misdirrection w/o remora.

Mindslaver is huge against combo.  Basically my entire game plan is going to be about finding and resolving tinker for slaver.  If I slave you its almost certainly GG, if I slave you with a remora down... I would advise just scooping.

Xantid is ok - but Tyrant blue is currently looking at putting a 4th repeal into the deck.  So resolveing and actually triggering the xantid may not be as easy as you would hope.  It could catch the deck with its pants down though.  Xantid also weakens your game signifigantly against Oath and GAT because of duress.   So you would have to expect more remoras than duresses to justify it's inclusion.

For any storm deck, I board in 4 brainfreezes.  This is a massive advantage over a storm deck.  It sinergies very well with remora, all I need to do is keep 2 blue open and by the time your storm is getting lethal I should have the ability to mill you in response to your tutor for Tendrils.  Or even in reponse to duress.  If I hit your will and/or tendrils even a storm of 4~ish can be GG.  I may even bring in Tormod's crypts depending on how Will-focused the deck appears - or on the other hand, I could bring in spell snares for a scroll/drain/gush-focused storm deck.

[Stormanimagus]

From another thread:

Hey Jeff. Noah here. I really respect your opinion, but I do have one question. As a long time combo player I'm not sure that Tyrant Blue really DOES have a good game against Combo. In my experience playing with/against combo countermagic is not enough as the combo play can just wait til the right moment and win with Duress/Extirpate backup. Since Misdirection really only PROTECTS FoW for you it's pretty useless on its own and thus you are left almost zilch answers to Combo if they Extirpate your FoW.

I'm not saying Tyrant Blue CAN'T beat combo, I'm just saying that I'm not convinced that it has better game against Combo than GAT or Tyrant Oath that run Duress/Thoughtseize packages. If you give combo time (as this deck seems to do) it'll find a way to get there. Again, please come out and point out if/how I'm wrong as this is mere speculation.

Also, I have a thread going right now on if Xantid Swarm should be incorporated into modern day Long Variants. Woult THIS be a solid answer to Tyrant Blue? How about GAT and Tyrant Oath? I'd really like your opinion on this one as it will most likely shape what direction I try to take my Storm Combo decks in the future.

In my experiance, remora renders duress worthless.  Remora means that I will get to draw before the next threat after duress.  Brainstorm + Remora makes me all but immune to duress in the turn my opponent plans to win.

Misdirrection insures that the Force or drain will stick to the spell I am countering.  Remember that I am the control deck, I will lickly not keep a hand that has misdirrection w/o remora.

Mindslaver is huge against combo.  Basically my entire game plan is going to be about finding and resolving tinker for slaver.  If I slave you its almost certainly GG, if I slave you with a remora down... I would advise just scooping.

Xantid is ok - but Tyrant blue is currently looking at putting a 4th repeal into the deck.  So resolveing and actually triggering the xantid may not be as easy as you would hope.  It could catch the deck with its pants down though.  Xantid also weakens your game signifigantly against Oath and GAT because of duress.   So you would have to expect more remoras than duresses to justify it's inclusion.

For any storm deck, I board in 4 brainfreezes.  This is a massive advantage over a storm deck.  It sinergies very well with remora, all I need to do is keep 2 blue open and by the time your storm is getting lethal I should have the ability to mill you in response to your tutor for Tendrils.  Or even in reponse to duress.  If I hit your will and/or tendrils even a storm of 4~ish can be GG.  I may even bring in Tormod's crypts depending on how Will-focused the deck appears - or on the other hand, I could bring in spell snares for a scroll/drain/gush-focused storm deck.

Very VERY good point regarding them just duressing you after you play Xantid. Yeah, I think Xantid may just be outdated right now *le sigh.* I guess this means I go back to the drawing board. What about a more Sui-Black oriented Strategy with multiple Tendrils, Creatures, Culling The Weak and/or Skullclamp. Wouldn't that be decent against Oath? It'd run like 8 MD Discard Spells. I used to have a pretty good build of that deck, but it just seemed weak because of all the STAX in the field and Ichorid and decks that just didn't care too much about Duress. Could that deck be a solid choice? How would Tyrant Blue do against Sui-Discard? Heck, perhaps I could even run Hymn to Tourach.

[Fred The Ev]

have you tested annul at all instead of spell snare? I don't really get Spell Snare's purpose...

[Harlequin]

Spell Snare comes in for the following matches:
Oath
Flash
Anything Running Scroll (GAT, Grow variants)
Anything Running Goyf (Fish)

Annul would come in for:
Oath (but wouldn't hit merchant scroll)
Shops


Assuredly, decks in the Spell Snare group are going to bring in REBs.  You need to keep in pace with that and have 1 mana counters of your own post board... otherwise these "Slightly favorable" matches may slip into the unfavorable section - post board. 

Spell snare is really nice with turn 1 remora. With a turn 1 remora generally you're going to only have 1 mana open each turn (this is partly why I only run 3 drains).  Post Board in the right matchup, you can really hold the line with a spell snare, 1 mana, and a remora. 

Lastly, Misdirrection is not optimal against oath or fish, and 'ok' against GAT.  So you get to trade out the taxing Misdirrections for hard counters against the most dangerous portion of thier deck.

[Mantis]

Meditate - Same cost and speed as Thirst, but nets you two or three more cards in hand.   The real cost, is the lost turn.   But again, looking at the deck, what is the opportunity cost of said turn?  This is a great example of a card that trades a huge benefit now for a cost in the near future.  There are two situations where Meditation is amazing.  Firstly, if you have Mystic Remora down.  With Remora down they are very reluctant to do anything durring thier turn.  Secondly, after you drain big, using it to fuel and protect your pivitol show an tell turn.  You trade a future turn (with a tyrant in play) for cards right now that will ensure you can survive that future turn.

Meditate nets you 2 cards; 1 lost for your next draw and 1 for the Meditate itself so you get a net advantage of 2 cards whilst Thirst for Knowledge nets you one or 0 cards, so that's 1 or 2 cards more. Unless of course you go off the turn you play Meditate.

[nineisnoone]

There are several quite common cards that you hate to see since they get past your remora . . . dark confidant, metalworker, welder, tarmogoyf. It is a good strategy against you for a combo deck or GAT deck to sideboard high quality aggro against you (like bobs or goyfs).

At the tournement I played in I faced against 2 Tarmogoyf decks, and won both matches.  One GAT Style, and 1 with Confidant, Top, Tarm.  In both matches, cards like Oath, Spell Snare, and soon to be Powder Keg are going to be valuable answers.  In my experiance with oath, tempo-control decks board out any "Creature fat" to make room for non-creature spells.  With remora, they board out cheap spells for cheap creatures...... which is great if you are oath.  It's this sideboard shift that allow the deck to create a paradox for decks running tempo+creatures - to creature or not to creature.  I ultimately don't even care what they do, I don't cut show and tell, and generally go to 3 remora, 3 oaths.  So for tempo decks, thier boarding depends more on the cards I -see- then the cards I board in.   

You are correct in seeing that the deck have problems with quick, efficent, low-cc creatures.  Luckily for the deck, cards like spell snare, oath, and powder keg are availble for answering that exact issue - and are good in other matches! 

This is also why I'm leaning more heavily towards 3 Maindeck Repeals.  Because again, I'm not so worried about heavy-cc bombs so much as I am worried about quick low-cc dudes.

Has Snapback been considered as an answers for quick dudes?  It's card disadvantage if you play it for free, but card advantage is something this deck is built for.  Additionally, you can just hardcast it, and then it's cheaper or as expensive as Repeal for any non-token creature.  Plus it hits heavy-cc creatures where Repeal can't.

The main drawback (outside of bouncing artifacts and enchantments that is, but that's answerable SB) is no Remora->Repeal->Remora play, which is a beautiful play, but at the same time seems a bit excessive.  Repeal->Remora is 3 mana for paying Remora's upkeep (Repeal costs a card, but you draw a card of it so it's neutral), so you've already passed 3 turns with it, do you really need that fourth? And really by that time Remora was either getting you cards so you have other things to play, or it's not getting you cards so losing it shouldn't make that much of a difference.

[BigBear102]

So what would the advantage of Snapback be? This type of deck would rather take a couple of points and play a card that will replace itself. And like you said, it comboes with Remora.

Your argument that if Remora isn't giving you cards, you should let it die anyways is wrong. If the opponent is not casting spells, then the fact that the control deck is getting into the mid-late game is reason enough to pay for it. Unless you are being beaten down by creatures, if Remora can act like a Standstill to put the game into stall mode, even without drawing you any cards, it is giving you the advantage in the end.

[nineisnoone]

Well, the thing is you don't need Repeal to keep Remora in play.  You can just pay the upkeep.  And I'm not sure if running Repeal just because it's cheaper than paying 4 on an upkeep is worth it.

The main advantage would be that it synergizes with Remora actually.  Because Remora means you're tapping out most of your mana. If you drop it on turn 1, and keep hitting lands, you'll only have 1 mana open, which is not enough to Repeal a non-token creature. And that's assuming you keep hitting lands. And you also might want to use mana to Brainstorm or leave it open for Spell Snare. And if you miss a land drop then you won't have any free. Snapback means you can pay for your Remora and do other things with your mana.

Note: Though when I was thinking about this suggestion I was looking a the build that ran 4x Meditate, which certainly makes the need for a mana free bounce more important and negates the discard draw back.

[klaus10000000]

What happened to Mana Crypt?

What do you think about Echoing Truth+Mystical MD? (-1 Meditate, -1 ?)