[Deck]Tyrant Blue - (Kid Tested, TMD approved)

[Harlequin]

Tyrant Blue - The Prototype.

6 Fetchlands
5 Islands
2 Tropical Islands
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy

5 Mox
3 Lotus, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt

Win Condition --
2 Show and Tell
1 Tinker

3 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Platinum Angel

Control Package --
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirrection
4 Mana Drain
2 Cunning Wish
1 Plagerize

Draw Package --
4 Mystic Remora
4 Meditate
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Timewalk

//////////////////////////

1 Brain Freeze
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pact of Negation
1 Plagerize
3 Submerge
3 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Oath of Druids

///////////////////////////

The Deck in a nutshell: 

The deck runs on a few core concepts.  Firstly, that drawing cards is really really good, and very powerful if you have alot of counterspells.  Secondly, that Tidespout Tyrant is an amazing card, and having it in play is amazing. 

Good Matches: GAT, Combo, Blue based Fish/Agro
Ether-way: Stax, Shop-Agro, flash
Poor: Ichorid, Goblins, Oath

Card Choices:
Mystic Remora - I think this card is key to bridging the space between the combo-control of today, and the pure~ish control of the past.  It gives you the ability to play it early, and alow your mana to well up.  You spend your first few land drops repaying for Remora.  Your opponent must choose between allowing you to build your mana base and sit around doing nothing... or give you card-for-card on development of a hand.

Meditate - Same cost and speed as Thirst, but nets you two or three more cards in hand.   The real cost, is the lost turn.   But again, looking at the deck, what is the opportunity cost of said turn?  This is a great example of a card that trades a huge benefit now for a cost in the near future.  There are two situations where Meditation is amazing.  Firstly, if you have Mystic Remora down.  With Remora down they are very reluctant to do anything durring thier turn.  Secondly, after you drain big, using it to fuel and protect your pivitol show an tell turn.  You trade a future turn (with a tyrant in play) for cards right now that will ensure you can survive that future turn.

Plagerize - Holy crap is this card insane.  This card gives you a FIVE CARD pure card advantage when cast on a brainstorm.  Not only do you draw your three cards, and not only does your opponent not draw 3 cards, but then THEY still put two cards from thier hand back on top of the deck.  Also Plagerize can effectively win you the game if you resolve it before you cast Timetwister.  Last I heard it's hard to lose after you've draw 14 cards and your opponent is left with 0.

The wish board -
Brainfreeze is your instant win with Tidespout.  Mystical gets you to show and tell.  FoF is your converter of drain mana to cards.  Pact of Negation is a pinch hitter for a counterspell.  Plagerize is just too good to let go (and gets boarded in against brainstorm decks).  Submerge for GAT (and marginally for oath).  Hurkyls for anything Shoppy.

Sideboard Oath of Druids, Maindeck Trops, 0 Forbiddens -
The deck can have issues with aggro-style decks.  Oath is a great failsafe against aggro decks.  By adding them in post board you more than double your win conditions.  There is no need for orchard because you only bring them in against creature decks.

/////////////////////////////

Current Things on the testing platform:

Wishes out for a more robust sideboard -
 4  Oath of Druids
 3  Hurkyl's Recall
 3  Tormod's Crypt
 3  Pithing Needle
 2  Submerge

Then Maindeck the Mystical/FoF and Brainfreeze.   I think the explaintion is fairly clear.   It gives you more dirrect hate for problem match ups.

1 Plats, 2 Tyrants, 1 Mindslaver (with 1 Acad Ruins) -
This is Jer's build of the deck.  The idea is to run a more diverse array of threats.  Mindslaver is certainly a bomb aganist some decks.  The recursive 12 mana infinity slave is just a little perk.

[hauntedechos]

It seems like everyone is trying out new things lately!!  truly this is a great time in Vintage to have so much diversity and passion to build unique decks.

I like the return to control with the focus on pure card advantage. 

The use of plagerize is actually a pretty cool find given the fact that Brainstorm and soon Ponder ahve become almost auto includes to anything with U in it. 

Mystic remora reminds me of Standstill and on that note,  have you tested Standstill in meditates slot?  I understand the idea of drawing 4 NOW, but if your reasoning why it can work is that the opponent is hesitent to do much on thier turn due to remorra, then wouldn't Standstill further that facet?  You would only be off by 1 card drawn while being able to drop it the turn after remorra?

12 in the control package is very solid for a return to control.  backing the card advantage with a retarded amount of control just seems great to me.

Good work in this list, I hope that it develops further and people take an interest in it.  As a last thought, I know it feels trendy, but has Gush been tested in the Brainstorm slot?  I can see a lack of synergy with paying Remorras upkeep, but as a "free"draw spell and continuing with Force and MisD "free" theme could it work out for you?

[Rock Lee]

@Hauntedechos
I highly advise testing this deck online to see how it plays. If you've played mono blue phid previously, you'll have an idea of what this deck is like. Just instead of a turn 1 phid, you drop a turn 1 remora.

Remora was played in Sideboards back in the day against Grim Long, and both Harle and myself feel that with GAT's recursion in the meta, its a strong choice.


In my mind, Standstill is the opposite of Meditate. Meditate gives you cards NOW, at the cost of turns. Standstill gives you cards sometime later and gives both players many turns. I never liked Standstill because it allows your opponent to build build build and then explode. Its symmetrical, and therefore flawed. Fish tried to break its symmetry by putting pressure on by playing Manlands. Ultimately though, 3 or 4 turns is more than enough for a control deck to build a hand with 2 or 3 bait spells, followed by a game winner.

Remora is by definition non-symmetrical. Meditate only adds icing to the cake, as you're drawing at LEAST one card out of it while burning their hand. Also remora lets you actively cast building spells and potential bombs while your opponent sits on their hand. Standstill would remove this option.

Plagiarize is a fun spell, but ultimately limited due to casting cost. I run 2 in my build, as "sucker punch" hits. When changing from a high Age-Counter Remora to a fresh one, your opponent WILL cast a brainstorm, and then is the time to take them out for the count.


Replace Morphling with Tidespout.
Replace Phid & B2B with Remora and Meditate

And you basically have Mono Blue's transition to Tyrant Blue.

All-in-All, the deck requires much finesse, but is a serious powerhouse against a combo meta.

[fury]

Is Meditate a real choice ? For  , the player lose one turn, even if he draws 4 cards. Does the use of Meditate have a significative influence on the deck's clock ? Does The card advantage balance the loss of one turn ?

[Rock Lee]

Is Meditate a real choice ? For  , the player lose one turn, even if he draws 4 cards. Does the use of Meditate have a significative influence on the deck's clock ? Does The card advantage balance the loss of one turn ?

Meditate's downside is negated by running a large amount of pitch counters, the fact that is it instant and being able to play it EOT when they have "wasted mana", and the obvious synergy between Meditate and Mystic Remora is enormous.

Meditate goes more positive cards than Ancestral Recall, so the swing of a resolved meditate is enormous. At the same time, the deck doesn't need meditate to fuel its control aspect, so throwing them out as bait is fine. Meditate works in the same sense that Thirst for Knowledge works in old Control Slaver. Instead of sacrificing mana (as was the case with Thirst), you're sacrificing Tempo.

I strongly advise sleeving up the deck or playing it online. It has a GREAT feel to it. It makes you realize that innovation can beat any metagame.

[Nehptis]

Having followed and contributed to the Oath thread on the main board I must say this is a very interesting build.  I posted a tourney report in the tourney area about my recent success with Tyrant Oath.  I plan to expand on my experiences this past Sat in the Oath thread, as well.  One thing is for sure, Show and tell is for real.  That card was awesome all day for me in Tyrant Oath.  Leaning more heavily on it in a Mono U control deck is a great idea!

I'm just worried that you guys are going to get Show and Tell Restricted!

Having not tested this yet, one change I would make on paper would be to add Ponder and to reduce the Remora's and/or Meditates and/or Plagiarize.  Ponder is amazing in Oath and I think it should be tested here, as well.

Another change would be to find room for Merchant Scroll.  This card is just too good to not include in a Mono U deck.  It is practically your Demonic Tutor.  Again I'd reduce the Remora's and/or Meditates and/or Plagiarize.

Another card I would add is Echoing truth.  I love it as a silver bullet in most of my decks.  Plus it has synergy with Tyrant.  Worst case, we pitch it to something.

Lastly, Mystical Tutor should be moved to Main for no other reason as to grab anything in the deck that is needed, even SnT and Tinker.

Plagiarize is cute but Ponder and Scroll are better IMO.

I used to use Meditate back in the day, so I understand how the loss of turn can be "controlled" by keeping a hand full of counters.  However, against Aggro I wouldn't cast it too often unless you have a creature on the board, which means you will win/can't lost anyway.

So, in summary on paper my changes would be:

Main:
- 4 Mystic Remora (Move to SB)
- 4 Meditate
- 1 Plagiarize

+4 Merchant Scroll
+3 Ponder
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Mystical Tutor (Moved Up from SB)

SB:
-1 Mystical Tutor (Moved Up to Main)
-1 Plagiarize
-1 Submerge
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
+ 4 Mystic Remora (Moved from Main)

Again nice work on your way to getting Show and Tell Restricted!

[Harlequin]

Nehp, the deck actually started with scrolls and ponders.  The core idea being, Tyrant is amazing... can we cut 2 Oaths, and Orchards from tyrant oath - and replace it with Show and Tell?  The answer was "not Really."   If you test the deck as a Scroll/Ponder-centric deck you end up with a pile that is not really as good as GAT or Tyrant Oath.

So the real solution was to say: Why look at cards when you draw cards instead?  The focus of the deck shifted into abusing the intense synergy between Mystic Remora and Meditate as a "plan" to control both the early and mid games respectively.  Then after countering your way to the point of "I have cards and you don't" you either drop a Tyrant on the back of S&T or Mana Drain for 5. 

@ Meditate, Agro, Oath, and Tyrant Blue...
Tyrant Blue is a niche deck, In that I don't think its the best-over-all deck in Vintage.  It abuses some of the same cards as Tyrant Oath, but it attacks the metagame from the opposite dirrection.  I agree that, if your opponent has a few 2/2s and a Tarmogoyf staring you down, the last card you want to see is Meditate.  And Mystic Remora ain't so hot iether.  But Tyrant oath on the other hand generally enjoys seeing those 2/2s and Tarmogoyfs on the other side of the board.  Tyrant blue runs Oaths in the board to give you an out against creatures.... That being said, if I expect to face off against Agro all day, then you should bring Oath to the table and not Tyrant Blue.  On the other side of the coin, if your meta is all GAT and Combo, Tyrant blue is a stronger choice.

Also about Mystical Tutor -
I think, again, you underestimate just how many cards this deck draws.  I do run mystical sideboarded so I can use it to find S&T/Tinker off the cunning wish.  But in testing this has never actually come up.  In most cases, I'm either spending my mana on draw spells and cumulative upkeeps; or I just drained big, and I'll use Cunning to get FoF (A generally superior play to getting Mystical->win, because it will find the wins AND refuel my hand).   Should Show and Tell get restricted  I will run Mystical maindeck in it's spot

I think if you do cut raw-draw for ponders and scrolls, then mystical is a must... but at that point you should just play GAT or Oath, because those decks are designed to abuse the power differentials in cards and can succede on selection over bulk draw.

[StarOrc]

Has anyone suggested splashing black? DT Will and Duress seems like they would help up the decks raw power.

I personnally really don't like MisD at all in a control deck. MisD is really only good at protecting your own spells while giving up CA. It can perform some neat tricks but in my experience it takes a lot to set up those situations. I feel that duress can perform both roles of protecting your spells and stopping your opponent's game plan without giving up CA. Obviously your response would be that the deck can afford to run MisD and lose some CA because it draws an incredible amount of cards. Well this is not quite true in the early game giving up advantage early doesn't seem like something this deck can do because it doesn't seem to have the capability to dig itself out of a hole. Although I could be wrong and you have more experience with the deck.

Adding DT and possibly Vamp give you options when you board in the Oaths. Without the black tutors you really are kinda stuck Brainstorming to find them. Remora and Meditate aren't gonna get you there vs any aggro strategy.

About Will. Basically it gives the deck one last chance to dig out of a hole. Its really far too broken not to run. I don't know what else to say about it.

Basically what I would suggest is:
- 4 MisD
- 1 Plagerize
- 1 Timetwister
- 1 Plats

+ 4 Duress
+ 1 DT
+ 1 Vamp
+ 1 Will

This could possibly make the Meditate weaker with less pitch counters but I think it may make the deck overall a bit better.

Star

[Mophead-Masquerade]

I'm very interested in this deck. It looks pretty fun. Just wondering if there is anything to add after the impressive finish at myriad games? Or an opinion on StarOrc's suggestion of black?

[Harlequin]

The deck is still under construction.  And we are still testing many options.  My initial reaction is that the whenever we devate too far from the original deck... it is difficult to justify not taking the plunge into another deck.  With black added to the deck for duress, it is difficult to not justify running all the tutors, with the tutors - why not yawg?  and with Yawg, why not run a less reactive draw engin, and run Gush instead? and with that why not run green for fastbond, and with green why tyrant over dryad?

It's tough to draw the line, and these are questions that may ultimately provide the logical downfall of the deck.

Right now sleaved up, the current "Bomb" package is:

2 Show and Tell
1 Tinker
1 Brainfreeze

3 Tyrants
1 DS Collosus
1 Mindslaver

Now, granted, almost every time I pick up the deck for testing, I tweak that a littled.  But I think that offers the best array of answers and win conditions against the current decks in the meta.

We have almost certainly abandon Cunning Wish.  It makes the sideboard overly tight, and doesn't really improve any matches that you don't already destroy.  I'm also really fealing the DSC+Mindslaver package for tinker.  Plats has been moved to the board, because seriously - game 1 this deck fairly easily DESTROYS combo... It doesn't need Plats in the slightest.  Generally speaking, Tinkering for Slaver against Combo is as good if not better than Plats anyhow.  This is especially true if you already have Remora down ....... holy crap you win!

The other card that has proven useful in testing is Jace Beleren.  (Thanks Oli!)
 
{U} Plainswalker with 3 starting loyalty
[+2] Both players draw a card
[-1] Target player draws a card
[-10] Target player Mills 20.

So hes a 3 mana cantrip ... obviously not that hot.  Then he gives you a free sorcery speed draw for the next 2 turns - again, why not play Phyrexian Arena?  But he has a few great interactions within the deck.  Firstly, the +2 ability can be mitigated by Mystic Remora, so you can realisitcally keep him charged up for the long run.  But again... how is this better than the unplayable Phyrexian Arena?  Combo.  Because he can be used the turn he is played, you can use him + Tyrant + sapphire + another mox to draw your whole deck, by repeat Jace bouncing.  Every time you replay him, he counts as a new Jace, that can be used this turn.  Then after drawing your entire deck, you brainfreeze your opponent and then use Jace to finish the game.

At the moment I am running and testing 1 Jace.  Is he good? I don't really know...  but what I do know is that he's at least testable.  And he does frequently find him self on the pitch end of Forces and MisD or find himself getting shuffled back with brainstorm.  But in the few games where he does see the board, he has been a welcome source of card advantage.


The board right now is almost as large as the deck itself.  There are just far too many cards that could be in the board for this deck.  So right now I have no concrete sideboard other than 1 Plats.  Cards in consideration:

For Creature decks--
Oaths (with 2 trops maindeck)
Vedalken Shackles
Powder Keg
Control Magic
Threads of Disloyalty
Propaganda

For Combo and GAT--
Spell Snare
Nix
Disrupting Shoal
Extract
Shadow of Doubt
Tormod's Crypt
Submerge
Trickbind
(with maindeck Volcs)...
.. Magus of the Moon
.. REB

For Oath--
Spawning Pit
Annul
Seal of Removal
AEther Spellbomb
[Submerge]
[Spellsnare]
[Control Magic]
[Extract]

Shops --
Hurkyl's
Rebuild
Eflux
Back to Basics (for non-red builds)
[Annul]
[Oaths]

[Nehptis]

In addition to my comments in the Tourney thread a few thoughts:

Slaver is amazing...great call.  Jace is so-so for now.  More testing is needed.

With two Trops main is there room for a Gush / Bond package?  Not that the deck suffers from draws but..why not try it!

Can you post the current complete list + Mega board so I can do some better MWS testing?  Thanks!

[Harlequin]

I haven't made any drastic changes to the main deck.  Here is what I have sleeved up:
Tyrant Blue ----
6 Islands
2 Trops
5 Fetches
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Moxen
3 Lotus, Crypt, Sol Ring

4 Brainstorm
4 Mystic Remora
4 Meditate
3 Repeal
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Jace // Timewalk
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirrection
3 Mana Drain

2 Show and Tell
1 Tinker
1 Brainfreeze

3 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Dark Steel Colosus
1 Mindslaver

Right now I'm testing the deck with the most busted split card ever:  Jace/Timewalk 
Basically whenever I draw Jace I can decide to cast him as timewalk or Jace.  Here is what inital testing has shown:
If Jace/Timewalk is in the first 9-10 cards and I have 2 land drops its best as timewalk.
Otherwise it's almost always the same or better as Jace.

The sideboard is very difficult to hash out right now... more to come.  Here is the core:
3 Oaths 
 -- I'm not sure I need to devote more than 3 slots to anti-aggro only cards.  by adding 3 oaths I'm just increaseing my win condition density.   
3 Poweder Keg
 -- this card is becoming more of a player than I though.  Again more sideboard maps need to be drawn before I settle on a number here 2-4 is highly likely.
1 Platinum Angel
 -- Hanging in there... No reason to cut her with a resurgence of pure-combo coming to poop on the Oath party.
3 Hurkyls
 -- I like this card because chalice for 2 doesn't hurt me at all... out side of post board Hurkyls and usually 2 oaths.

I suspect that it will take me another few tournements to have a solid sideboard and sideboard map... so more to come.  I'm glad to see so much enthusiam for the deck.
 
@Gush.  I know gush is amazing.  I know that it IS the best draw card in the game right now... but this particular deck can't afford the loss of lands.  Unlike GAT this deck wants to have 8+ lands in play.  The more lands in play, the more this deck can do from turn to turn, and longer remora will stay alive.  Gush, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll are all great cards, but Remora in the current meta is more powerful, and all those card detract from the power of remora.  Lands are so valuable, I've considered running the deck with fastbond but no gush!

[Nehptis]

Regarding adding Black.  I agree that adding off colored cards brings us down a slippery slope of questioning why we would play this over Oath or GAT.  But, it seems worth testing Black for Duress/Thoughtseize, DT and perhaps VT.

I don't think YWill is as powerful here as it is in other decks.  The reason is that ON AVERAGE our GY will be filled with fetches, Pitch Counters, an expired Remora, a BS or 2 and a Meditate or 2.  Not stellar for a Ywill.  No doubt a resolved YWill is powerful when comboing out.  But, I'm more interested in finding spots for Duress/Thoughtseize and DT than I am for YWill.

The biggest challenge with this deck is maximizing card synergies while minimizing the cards that compete for the same resources at the same time.  It's really an interesting study into the essence of Type 1 deck building.  For example, Duress/Seize is powerful.  But, it directly competes with a first turn Remora.  Or EOT Meditate is huge card advantage.  But, it increases your dependency on FOW since the resources that you would use for Mana Drain have been spent on Meditate.

With that I'm still going to try this.

-1 MisD
-1 Repeal
-1 Meditate
-1 Mana Drain (This is the toughest cut.  But, something has to go.  Jace/Walk is a consideration, too.)
-2 Island

+3 Thoughtseize (This over Duress because of our weak aggro matchups.)
+1 DT
+2 USea

I can't find room for VT at the moment.  Although it has good synergy with Remora.

[Harlequin]

Well, I've never had a thread taken from improvement to Open, thats definately interesting...  I took the under construction tag off the title, because I think the main part of the deck is hashed out.  At any rate:

For example, Duress/Seize is powerful.  But, it directly competes with a first turn Remora.  Or EOT Meditate is huge card advantage.  But, it increases your dependency on FOW since the resources that you would use for Mana Drain have been spent on Meditate.

I could not have said it better myself, this basically a perfect summary of how the draw pack and control package need to be in alignment.  Ultimately, this is why I decided to cut the 4th Drain.  Basically, I will never cast 2 drains in one turn - I will either be paying for Remora, or using the mana elsewhere.  With that in mind, I almost always want to have 1 drain locked and loaded at all times.  For that reason I'm reluctant to cut back to 2 drains; although I have not tested a 2 drain build.  I'm still struggling over Sieze, and if It is the right card.  On one hand, the counter package is so robust, that I generally have the ability to bury my opponent under control.  Also, I generally like when my opponent is casting spells.  Conversly, Sieze alows me to pre-emtively answer the best card that they are inevitably holding back on the turn remora dies.  And also limit the instances where I fall sucker to counter-bait. 
Sieze additionally weakens me against wastland decks, and is a sometimes relevant loss of life. 
Lastly, any synergy gained with Remora is lost with Meditate.  Meditate drawing into a sieze is no good unless you mianphased it with open black.  Where picking up a MisD will only bolster the strength of FoW.
So again, the testing jury is still out on this, and I would like to hear what others have found.

[Phoenix888]

Congrats on getting Tyrant Blue into the Open section.  It definitely deserves to be here.  I love the deck and have lost very few matches with it on MWS.  Though, it is tough to test on there due to a combination of bad players, bad decks, or "good players" who quit when I'm playing "random jank" like Mystic Remora and Meditate.  I've found that a first turn Mystic Remora gets followed by obscenities and then Player Lost quite often, lol.

Anyways, there were two things I wanted to touch on.

1)  Adding black.  Without testing black in the build I can still say that's something I don't think this deck needs.  In my opinion, the main card black offers to this deck is Thoughtseize.  But, the only decks I've ran into problems with are MUD decks.  A first turn Metalworker on the play has caused me more problems then anything.  Thoughtseize could be used to nab a worker before it sees play (sometimes), but boarding in 4 Annuls, 2 Hurkyl's Recalls, and 4 Oaths is what I've come up with so far to stop Shop decks.  A mid to late game Thoughtseize seems like it would be very underwhelming as was pointed out earlier.  I've not run into any problems with other aggro decks that Oaths couldn't fix.

2)  Jace/Time Walk.  I've been testing Staff of Domination in place of this and have been satisfied with the results so far.  Staff has helped seal games for me without the Tyrant/Moxes/Brain Freeze combo.  Also, when I am comboing out, it can be mana of any color so I'm not dependent on getting a Mox Sapphire.  Has this been tested by anyone else?

[beder]

Hi,

// sorry for my english, message from france

First, thanks to Harlequin for bringing us an innovation that seems pretty coherent and really interesting.
The mystic remora + mediate engine is really pretty nice.

In my opinion, in the different builds presented, the card I am really not confident about it is misdirection. I have never liked that card, especially against pure combo or aggro or worhshop decks. And we all know that right now, aggro and workshop decks are pretty strong...

On the other hand, in order meditate to be an efficent engine, you have to deal with the 3 drawbacks :
- you give opponent the ability to improve his board, attack you twice or even kill you
- you don't untap, opponent will
- you don't have a draw phase

Obviously, the last point is not really relevant : you already drew 4 cards, let him draw one, it is fair

For the 2 first drawbacks, you can address them with :
- the ability to control the board - that's tyrant or platinium 's job - and the ability to control cards played - that's counters
- the ability to interact with very few mana available

So in my opinion, a real contender for this build is pact of negation. It addresses very efficently the 2 drawbacks presented. You may perhaps even be able to pay it at your next upkeep, given that this is a real control deck, using remora, so games could be pretty long.
But in order pact to be absolutely excellent, you would need it to be combined with its friend platinium... And good news, platinium is a card that your deck can efficently play and that addresses nicely the first drawback and is sometimes better than tyran oath when it comes to help you saving your life.

My proposal, keep the 4 mana drains, remove at least 2 misdirection, add 2 or 3 pact, and change the creature package, to
2 Tidespout Tyrant
>= 2 Platinium angel

Imo, in this deck that often have to wait until taking control of the game and so can face a board with many threats, platinium is really really good. Especially if you can put it on baord withouth sacrificing an artifact - show and tell - so that welder cannot remove it.

To sum up, I really like the draw engine and the show and tell bomb, i am just thinking about adding more platinium to be able to use efficently pact of negation.

Just my 2 cents.

[unicoerner]

I really like the idea of this deck and will probably test it, but i am interested in, why this deck is better than oath.
And what you think about including Back to basic, i mean we are running a mono blue build, why shouldn´t we abuse such a powerful card?

I am still not sure about 4 Misd., ok everyone is casting his acestral in the first 3 turns, but is it really worth the call? Anyone testing mana leak or counterspell in this spot?

[Pigeon]

If you're worried about Meditate, why not just use Trade Secrets instead. It does pretty much the same thing.

[Nehptis]

Regarding Pact.  I have been considering it myself.  However, Pact is very risky without an immediate win condition like Flash or without Platz in play.  The reasons why Tyrant > Platz have been discussed multiple times in other threads.  But, please test Pact / Platz and report your results here.  I'm just skeptical as to the power of any creature over the new Superman!

Regarding B2B.  It lost some of its power once Fetch lands were introduced.  Most decks can do some crazy things with 1 tap of a land.  And now it's even less effective with Gush / Bond around.

Regarding MisD.  Don't think of it as a tool to address Recall.  It's primary purpose is to win a counter war when you are trying to stop an opponent's spell or when you are trying to resolve one of your key spells.  I never liked 4 MisDs in any deck.  I'm currently testing 3.  Thoughtseize is in one spot as mentioned below.  But, if Black does not work out then I'll probably test -1 MisD and +1 Merchant Scroll.

Regarding Trade Sec.  Sorcery < Instant.  Opponent drawing 2 cards < Opponent drawing 0 cards.  Test the deck and you'll see that a well timed Meditate and giving the opponent an extra turn USUALLY makes little difference.

[Harlequin]

@ "Why Tyrant Blue over Oath?
Here is a quote from my first response in the thread, I think it still holds true:

@ Meditate, Agro, Oath, and Tyrant Blue...
Tyrant Blue is a niche deck, In that I don't think its the best-over-all deck in Vintage.  It abuses some of the same cards as Tyrant Oath, but it attacks the metagame from the opposite dirrection.  I agree that, if your opponent has a few 2/2s and a Tarmogoyf staring you down, the last card you want to see is Meditate.  And Mystic Remora ain't so hot iether.  But Tyrant oath on the other hand generally enjoys seeing those 2/2s and Tarmogoyfs on the other side of the board.  Tyrant blue runs Oaths in the board to give you an out against creatures.... That being said, if I expect to face off against Agro all day, then you should bring Oath to the table and not Tyrant Blue.  On the other side of the coin, if your meta is all GAT and Combo, Tyrant blue is a stronger choice.

So It's all about the meta-wave.  Right now, thanks to Rich and Steve, people are surgeing towards Oath.  As this happens the people surfing the wave are going to go to pure combo, and much fewer aggro decks.  As that oath wave begins to break, and you have a combo v oath meta - Tyrant blue would be the deck of choice.

Also, As I said in another deck, Oath is a rather unwieldly (or "Clunky" if you prefer) deck.  It has many flaws inherrent in the deck.  There are cards that you have to run 4 of that you don't want to see more than 1 of over the course of the game.  You need to run wastable non-island lands in a gush deck, and you have at least 2 cards you generally never want to draw.  To be clear, I think Tyrant oath is perfectly equiped to mitigate those drawbacks and builds and acceptably clunky deck.  But Tyrant Blue is a much smoother, and constistant deck.  It has the handling that I think many Oath nay-sayers have been looking for.

@Staff of Dom.  I really don't understand how this card is nothing more than a glorified Maze of Ith if you arn't going infinite.  With the deck so hungry for mana as is, I don't think this is a very good addition.  I like Jace because he is mana-less draw, and I like Timewalk because it lets me untap and drop another land.

@Plantinum Control.  Adding Pact of Negation ultimately makes the deck lose consistancy I would think.  I think PoN is a good card for a combo deck that has to burn all it's resources in one turn.  A combo deck like belcher, where if your opponent stops you, you are basically going to lose anyway because you've burned up all your resources.  I don't particularly like it in a deck with Platinum Angel because if you lose the battle you lose the war.  You plan on taking more turns after using a PoN, which is just reckless IMO.  Tyrant Blue can afford to lose a counterwar where both players end up with 1 or 2 cards in hand, because it can reload a hand faster than any other control deck on the market.  By adding Pact you are basically planning to NOT capitalize on that advantage.  Plats is a defensive plan, where Tyrant is both Defensive and Agressive depending on the board, your hand, and the match-up. 

@ Back to Basics.  GAT and Tendrils have Gush; Flash shouldn't need to untap (and b2b will be too slow anyway); Ichorid only needs to tap Bazaar once to be dangerous; MUD either has Basic Mountains + Sim or Metalworker; R/x beats has Magus of the Moon.
Which leave Staxless and 5c Stax??

@ 4 MisD.  I'm not sure how else I can say that this is a new-age of Vintage, and MisD -is- the answer to it.  For the first time in a very long time Vintage is not Drains v Anti-Drain.  In a world of drain, MisD is bad.  But right now, MisD is at WORST a 2 for 2.  It aslo alows the deck to be acceptably dependant on FOW because it helps make sure FOW resolves.  Getting caught with your pants down with no mana is a very real possibility for this deck.  MisD helps cover your nuts when your are pantsless

[Tareth]

In my opinion, the biggest problem with this deck is not in it's contents or in it's theory, but playing it correctly.The biggest problem is deciding the priority of spells. No, not Magic the Gathering's rules on priority, but how high a spell is ranked in terms of being dangerous. Of course this will be different for every person who plays with counters. This brings me to my point of the level of difficulty, knowing when to counter and when to hold.

To counter, or not to counter? That is the question.

Let's say you're going up against Flash.

Turn 1: Land, Mox -> Flash.
Result: You lose.

Of course, this is a must counter. Alas, things are not always so easy.

Turn 1: Land, Duress.
Result: You lose a spell of their choice.

Now this is little more situational. You have to ask yourself: Do I have anything I want to keep? You also have to ask: Are they going to take something that could possibly enable them to combo? If yes, you might consider countering. If no, then let it resolve.

The biggest problem is when they bait you. Say you're playing against MUD.

Turn 1: Workshop -> Metalworker.
Result: Very explosive turn 2.

This is a very strong play for MUD, considering Metalworker is the engine of the deck. Say you only have 1 pitch counter, do you counter? Let's say you Force it. Then they go:

Turn 1: Workshop(tapped), Mana Crypt(or Mox, Mox, or Mox into Mana Vault) ->Sphere of Resistance.
Result: Your spells cost 1 more to play now. No Mox? No turn 1 Remora.

You always have to be aware of baiting. If you believe for a second you're being baited and what they cast isn't going to lose you the game, then let it go. In the above example it's not really fair, because the MUD player could be holding a very explosive turn 2 hand. So, do you risk it?

That will be the key when playing this deck.

[BeatDominator]

I think more to the point, if you weren't a solid control player before, this deck won't fix what ails you.  It is a very fun, and very effective deck.  The ability to dig itself out of a hole with show and tell or a well drained spell is quite a testament to it.

Fundamentally its no different than BBS a from a few years ago, it just has a combo finish and a creature that is cheaper to protect/win with than morphling, and can be used for board control (a huge bonus).

To successfully pilot the deck you need to be fully aware of what you're playing against and protect yourself accordingly, hold brainstorms to protect yourself vs duress, setup drains and attempt to maximize your card advantage.  The deck can go from clinging on to each card for life, to combo win in a hurry.




Conversely the addition of black for duress/tutor/what-have-you is not a good decision.  At that point you're replacing the sorcery speed effects of the deck with other decisions which go against the flow of the deck, and introducing weaknesses to the deck (ie. wasteable lands, inability to have blue cards to pitch to FoW or MisD when needed)

However I admit I have only spent a few play sessions with it.  Those that I did spend with it, I quickly became impressed by the abilities of the deck.  I found myself mindslaving frequently (I'd estimate 70% of the games).

The sideboard is something I want to play with.  Maybe a transformational into a mono blue mask-nought, or a more traditional blue solution oriented setup. (BEBs, Energy Flux, etc.)

[sundering jerk]

I have been Testing this deck out and against Ichorid, Workshop aggro, and Goblins I have not won a single game. Also My oath match-up sux.

I started using the following sideboard and found it is the only answer.

4 Oath
4 Leyline
4 Propiganda
3 annual

and still the match-ups I mentioned are poor!


I was very excited when I first saw this deck but now I have come to the conclusion that Meta game decks are bad no matter how fun they are to play.

Sad times

[credmond]

I love blue control decks with library of alexandria in them so this one excited me.

I have been testing this deck and have noticed a few things.

It is heavily tuned towards winning the combo or GAT matchup at the detriment of having little chance preboard in the aggro matchup. The 12 cards in the form of remoras, meditates, and misdirections wind up generally being dead draws or bad strategies against most all flavors of aggro. The oath in the sideboard helps with the aggro but likely not enough to sweep games 2 and 3. Games 2 and 3 can still be tough when the aggro deck brings in the right sb cards to disrupt your plans (generally in the form of bounce and pyroblasts).
 
Unless you are playing against combo or GAT and they feed your remora, it actually seems difficult to assemble your combo (Tidespout, and Jace or  brainfreeze). Mostly you win the noncombo and nonGAT matches off the back of a single cheated in dude like DSC or tyrant with either show and tell or tinker and a hand full of counters.

Modifying the list and putting mystical tutor in the main deck (probably -1 misdirection or -1 meditate) helps with the assembling of the combo. If the green splash were dropped for a black splash for tutors, assembling the combo would become even more consistent and maybe to the extent that you can more proactively deal with aggro. Losing the green splash means you lose oath against aggro but having the black tutors means getting to tinker/show and tell DSC/Tidespout with a hand full of counters more reliably.

Running platinum angel main deck as opposed to mindslaver seems wiser in a more diverse meta. Slaver is great against your best matchups (combo and GAT) but Platinum angel seems to give you a preboard game plan against decks that are hitting you hard (like Ichorid or Workshop Aggro). It's a meta call ultimately of course.

There are several quite common cards that you hate to see since they get past your remora . . . dark confidant, metalworker, welder, tarmogoyf. It is a good strategy against you for a combo deck or GAT deck to sideboard high quality aggro against you (like bobs or goyfs).

Leyline of Singularity is an effective SB card giving you most of what Leyline of the Void offers (against Flash, Ichorid, and ETW.dec) but not clogging up your hand with spells you can't pitch or otherwise use. Leyline of Singularity can also be hardcast on turns 2 to 4 and still be effective against the matchups you are bringing it in against (Ichorid tends to try to roll you slower games 2 and 3).

[Harlequin]

There are several quite common cards that you hate to see since they get past your remora . . . dark confidant, metalworker, welder, tarmogoyf. It is a good strategy against you for a combo deck or GAT deck to sideboard high quality aggro against you (like bobs or goyfs).

At the tournement I played in I faced against 2 Tarmogoyf decks, and won both matches.  One GAT Style, and 1 with Confidant, Top, Tarm.  In both matches, cards like Oath, Spell Snare, and soon to be Powder Keg are going to be valuable answers.  In my experiance with oath, tempo-control decks board out any "Creature fat" to make room for non-creature spells.  With remora, they board out cheap spells for cheap creatures...... which is great if you are oath.  It's this sideboard shift that allow the deck to create a paradox for decks running tempo+creatures - to creature or not to creature.  I ultimately don't even care what they do, I don't cut show and tell, and generally go to 3 remora, 3 oaths.  So for tempo decks, thier boarding depends more on the cards I -see- then the cards I board in.   

You are correct in seeing that the deck have problems with quick, efficent, low-cc creatures.  Luckily for the deck, cards like spell snare, oath, and powder keg are availble for answering that exact issue - and are good in other matches! 

This is also why I'm leaning more heavily towards 3 Maindeck Repeals.  Because again, I'm not so worried about heavy-cc bombs so much as I am worried about quick low-cc dudes.

Here is the board I have right now:

1 Platinum Angel
2 Hurkyls Recall
2 Powder Keg
3 Oath
3 Spell Snare
4 Tormod's Crypt

-- More on Duress/Sieze (and on Plats too):
It may be arrogance; It may be stubornness; or it may just be blatent foolishness - But I think as a player, I don't use Duress or Platinum Angel as a crutch.  I've never thought either card were as amazing as everyone else seems to think.  I would highly encourage people to really -test- (test in the connotation of a challenge) themselves running 4 MisD's are 0 Duress effects when you test.  As a player who very rarely uses Plats, and even less frequently uses duress effects I feel like I can preform as good, if not better without them.  So I guess I am arrogantly sugesting that people who post here make an attempt to NOT lean on duress or plats as a crutch that has been there for you in the past.  Now All that being said, I don't think that Plats and Duress have no place in the meta.  Duress is integral to numerous stratigies in the format. 


@ Tyrant Blue v Reflection Tyrant Oath -
Jer and I tested this match, and pre-board I wa slightly up after about 15 games (I think something like 9-6).  Post board, we just up the countrol anti, with him adding REB and me adding Spell Snare.  So games still ended up slightly in my favor (we didn't play as many games, but they were roughly the same pace).  Games went one of two ways:  He either slipped an oath in quickly if I had a slow hand, or I won off a big drain into hardcast tyrant or slaver.  Mindslaver is savage against Tyrant Oath.  Show and tell often was a gamble that I admittedly didn't take that often.  I knew that he has more quick playable spells than I do, so It was very rarely worth sticking my neck out to risk him dropping in a tyrant and going "more busted." 
An interesting issue point is that post board, he is bringing in REB but at the expense of consistency (often cutting mystical, Gush, and something) Where I am bringing in spell snare and cutting chaff (DSC*, 1 Show and Tell, and I think 1 MisD/Med).

*- DSC thoughts.  I almost want to keep DSC in the deck just for Brainfreeze protection.  One situation that came up in MWS was where my opponent combo out and brainfreezed me.  I had a brainfreeze of my own in hand, and was able to deck him as well.  DSC saved me because I was able to get a draw for turn, and had a counter for Krosan Rec.  The probablity of that happening is very small though...

[unicoerner]

I tested this deck on Mws and i tried a build with a black spash at first for VAMP/DEM/WILL and hoped that i can take some games vs aggro down with combo Will mode, but most aggro decks run good disruption so this didn`t work that good.
I tried Intruder Alarm in the side vs aggro, but it didn´t work either.

Now i cahnged to the standard green build here.
I think of myself that i am playing control quite good. But this deck has lot of weaknesses:
1. Remora is outplayed by any creature based deck, ok this is not new. it`s important to drop in in the first 2 round, because otherwise the opponent is able to build his manabase with moxen before you can draw.

2. This deck runs 3 Titan +1 Platz+2 Show and Tell + Tinker + Platz/Slaver. These are 8 cards and you need 2 of them in your hand to play them. I end very often with show and tell in hand but no thread or the other way round.
In conlusion the problem is we don´t get a thread out and so we`ll give a lot of time to our opponent. They decide when the game starts!

3. We want to drain into Titan: We can`t do that early, because we are tapped out for remora, so the earliest turn to do that is turn 4 and even then we need an opponent who allows us to do that.


I very often have to let an early critter resolve and then get beaten down by it, because he doesn´t feed my remora and i can´t cast a meditate under the remora because i lack mana.

perhaps i just ran unlucky till now, but to me this decks looks a lot stronger than it is.

I hope you can get my thought although my englsih isn´t that good.

[Tareth]

If your Remora isn't helping you anymore, but preventing you from playing spells, then let it die.

[Tareth]

Double post somehow =\

[unicoerner]

But there comes problem Nr. 2 to show up. I won`t have a thread in hand in most cases, which would be worth saccing the remora!

[Tareth]

You mentioned not being able to cast Meditate because you're using up your resources in a Remora. There is a strong chance that in 4 cards you will find a threat, and at the very least, some defensive spells.