High Tide

[Ben Kossman]

So High Tide should be viable again as a combo/control deck with 4 Time Spirals available to facilitate a massive turn with High Tide and Fastbond to get to the desired game state as quickly as possible...

Artifact:2
1 Black Lotus
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Black:10
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
4 Thoughtseize

Blue:26
1 Brain Freeze
1 Cunning Wish
4 Time Spiral
1 Mind's Desire
4 High Tide
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Pact of Negation
1 Gush
1 Frantic Search
1 Timewalk
1 Ancestrall
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm

Green:1
1 Fastbond

Land:21
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool

The inlusion of Mana Drain is probably a good idea as well but I don't want anything clogging up my hand when I go off with Fastbond/Time Spiral/ High Tide. I chose extra Islands over moxen because the deck is based around High Tide and drawing a mox instead of Land is bad post Time Spiral. I guess Exploration might be an option as well but I didn't think it was necessary when the only card this deck really wants is Fastbond. This deck should typically go off turn 4-6 while disrupting the opponent with Thoughtsieze, Mana Drain, and FOW. I guess it's a lot like Drain Tendrils but a bit more controlling...Is anyone considering anything similar? Thoughts?

[forneus]

I've been a huge fan of high tide decks in the past, but most of the time i was playing it on the legacy format since it really gets beaten up in vintage. so here goes
how does playing 4 time spirals make this deck instantly viable? i always thought diminishing returns was already a very good card for this deck but it never really went main stream since it lost way too much to chalice, and now that brainstorm has been restricted to one, i think this deck just might be a little too underpowered compared to the other combo decks out there. just my thoughts ^^

[theLastGnu]

time spiral allows you to untap lands

[swawagon]

Fastbond may belong here, because getting as many islands down as quickly as possible is indeed engine that gets High Tide going. Also with Tropicals it lends the mana base to an Oath or Tarmogoyf side board.

However Gush, without Fastbond, probably sets this deck back too far and Gush may just not be good enough.

Just a few other cards to consider:
Meditate
Ideas Unbound
Cloud Faeries
Snap
Turnabout
Reset
Disrupt

[Ben Kossman]

I think fastbond is the card that makes the deck competitive. Without drawing it in the first 3 turns your chances of victory are a bit more limited hence the combo/control route as opposed to Straight gas.

[bisamratte]

Just a few other cards to consider:

Meditate
Ideas Unbound
Cloud Faeries
Snap
Turnabout
Reset
Disrupt

Why Resets?

[Relwarbeht]

Reset and Turnabout were the base of past hide tide decks.  As far as that original deck list that was posted, why 1 Top, and why Time walk?  If your set on Time Walk, would necro be another bomb you can play?  Why not play more Draw 7s like twister and Diminishing Returns so you can legitimately chain them together, if you go that route Xantid Swarm/Orim's Chant/Abeyance would probably be really helpful albeit requiring a bit of a splash.

[bisamratte]

Reset and Turnabout were the base of past hide tide decks. 

In an List with that many sorceries Reset seems to be useless. I think the posted Deck wants to kill during your own turn.

[misslehead3]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13186.html

Honestly that would probly be the place to start. Of course you would have to cut 3 merchant scrolls and 3 brainstorms to even make it legal but there are tons of things that can be put in like more time spirals. It seems though that we would not be getting the best time spiral possible if we expect to go off on turn 2-3

[Ben Kossman]

Like I said the early game for this deck pretty much consists of finding Fastbond as quickly as possible. Once that you find Timetwister (If you're not already holding it) and you go off. I recently added Intuition Accumulated Knowledge and it's been working pretty well, you can also Intuition for Time Spiral and then reshuffle the other two Spirals back into your deck....Here's my latest list...

Artifact:2
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Black Lotus


Black:9
1 Tendrils
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
3 Thoughtsieze

Blue:25
1 Brain Freeze
4 Time Spiral
4 Force of WIll
4 High Tide
1 Pact of Negation
1 Timetwister
2 Inuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Gush
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestrall

Green:1
1 Fastbond

Land:24
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
6 Island

Gush is actually great in this deck with Fastbond in play (duh). I cut Mana Drain but some sort of extra disruption may still be necessary...

[Outlaw]

Perhaps you can find room to fit in a Zuran Orb and Crucible?  Not sure how well it would work but I just figured with all the cards you would see. 

[Mr. Type 4]

Summer Bloom might be good if you just want to get a couple more land in play fast - i bet you drawa lot of land off those time spirals.

[Ben Kossman]

That's the idea after you cast the first High Tide/Time Spiral. You need four land to go off. 1 for High Tide and then three for Time Spiral. You can do this without Fastbond but the idea in the first three turns is to find Fastbond in order to accelerate into the afore-mentioned game state after which you should be able to keep rolling indefinintely. I'm not sure about Summer Bloom, wouldn't exploration be better or is the one turn bonus offered by Summer Bloom that good?

[Harlequin]

I think for a deck focused on timespiral Summers Bloom would be better than exploration.  Exploration gives you +1 land, then it sits there doing nothing.  Summers Bloom gives you +3 lands and then is in your yard ready to get timetwistered back to your hand to be reused. 

[Mr. Type 4]

not to mention if you draw another summer bloom you can put 3 more lands in, where another exploration is just 1 more.  you're also clearly wrong for not at least playing on-color moxes and Lotus Petal.  You want to play high tide off a mox if possible so you can get more juice out of your lands. 

[Anusien]

You cut Frantic Search, that seems poor.

Also, I have a hard time getting over Thoughtseize and Tendrils.  I don't know how much it's worth it to make black mana early or plentifully.  It's probably worth it to cast Will, but I think your plan would be to play lots of Islands and just win.  I'd just run Pact of Negation over Thoughtseize and cut your Black mana requirements.  I'd also run a second Brain Freeze over the Tendrils since BB seems like a potential sticking point.  I think basic lands are your best bet.

I would run at least Petal and Sapphire in the deck.  I would also want to add Frantic Search back in, and possibly Ponder.  I'd cut some lands and then look at cutting Timetwister; I feel like it may be redundant with Time Spiral and I don't think you want to give your opponent new cards to Force of Will you (but I could be wrong).  The Top seems sub-par though.  Intuition seems poor; I think Meditate may just be better if you are ready to win that turn.

[merfolkOTPT]

I was thinking, and this may be stupid, but how do you feel about adding in Orim's Chant as a way to get around the problem of refilling your opponent's hand with disruption whenever you cast time spiral?  I played this (spring tide) in Legacy a lot and using defence grid always came up but i think why not add white for orim's chant and/or abeyance.  They are good anyway, and can buy you another turn if you are on d and if you are going to win they guarantee it.  The other thing it can add is some other sideboard cards.  Just a thought.

[Ben Kossman]

Could you post your Springtide list? Here's my latest High Tide list. Right now I'm testing four Tops and Thirst for Knowledge as pre-spiral search. The Top obviously works well with the 10-12 fetchlands I feel that the deck should run. Orim's Chant is definitely a viable option as well...

Artifact:12
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

Black:4
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

Blue:20
1 Brain Freeze
4 Time Spiral
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Ancestral
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm

Green:1
1 Fastbond

Land:23
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island

So things get gradually more streamlined and power based. Having extra Island is great but TFK/Top/Fetchland/Moxen helps the deck function much more smoothly on it's way to finding Fastbond and going infinite...FOW is about the only disruption I can fit in here but Counterbalance almost seems doable...I want to go with a Transformational sideboard with Goyfs and Negators...Like I said I'd love to see that legacy Springtide list...This deck has a more classic combo feel to it than the average Storm based Tendrils deck...Combo gets boring to me fast but if I was going to play it this would be one viable list...How good is Brainfreeze as a win condition??? Would Tendrils be better?

[Darkenslight]

You cut Frantic Search, that seems poor.

Also, I have a hard time getting over Thoughtseize and Tendrils.  I don't know how much it's worth it to make black mana early or plentifully.  It's probably worth it to cast Will, but I think your plan would be to play lots of Islands and just win.  I'd just run Pact of Negation over Thoughtseize and cut your Black mana requirements.  I'd also run a second Brain Freeze over the Tendrils since BB seems like a potential sticking point.  I think basic lands are your best bet.

I think that the main route thisx deck would go is abusing the 'free' spells from Urza's Block (the best ones being Frantic Search and Time Spiral, although Rewind may also be played).  Then build on that by abusing the High Tide.  what about this version (bearing in mind it is completely untested):

Mana: 23
8 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
Lotus
Moxen Sapphire, Jet, Emerald

Broken: 6
Yawgmoth's Will
4 Time Spiral
Timetwister

Other: 27
Ponder
Brainstorm
A Recall
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight
2 Meditate
4 Cunning Wish
Demonic Tutor
3 Personal Tutor
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
3 Pact of Negation
2 Quicken

Kill: 4
3 Brain Freeze
Tendrils of Agony

SB: 15
Meditate
Pact of Negation
Rushing River
Brain Freeze
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Oath of Druids
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Darksteel Colossus
Platinum Angel

[Negator13]

Could you post your Springtide list? Here's my latest High Tide list. Right now I'm testing four Tops and Thirst for Knowledge as pre-spiral search. The Top obviously works well with the 10-12 fetchlands I feel that the deck should run. Orim's Chant is definitely a viable option as well...

Artifact:12
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

Black:4
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

Blue:20
1 Brain Freeze
4 Time Spiral
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Ancestral
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm

Green:1
1 Fastbond

Land:23
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island

So things get gradually more streamlined and power based. Having extra Island is great but TFK/Top/Fetchland/Moxen helps the deck function much more smoothly on it's way to finding Fastbond and going infinite...FOW is about the only disruption I can fit in here but Counterbalance almost seems doable...I want to go with a Transformational sideboard with Goyfs and Negators...Like I said I'd love to see that legacy Springtide list...This deck has a more classic combo feel to it than the average Storm based Tendrils deck...Combo gets boring to me fast but if I was going to play it this would be one viable list...How good is Brainfreeze as a win condition??? Would Tendrils be better?

That deck looks like it wants Mana Drain really badly.

[merfolkOTPT]

My spring tide list is not terribly relevant because it used non legal in vintage things like 4x Merchant Scroll 4x Brainstorm 4x Ponder.  Sorry.  Btw the addition of summer bloom seems amazing to me.  It is better then ritual in high tide combo, and though not as good as Fastbond it almost gets there.  In legacy the thing that sucks the worst is that as you try and go off 3rd turn you will never have more then 3 lands in play, and you don't stop drawing them.  You almost wish that you had Mana Severance-d yourself but Summer Bloom turns those dead draws in to awesome draws, you can play less untap spells which means potentially more draw spells.

*****
EDIT Also are people considering playing mox diamonds in multiples in this deck, seems pretty decent for the same reason that summer bloom could be, namely turning your islands into something that is mana and storm.  Admittedly, these might not be that good but if you are playing the off color moxen these seem about as good while going off and before.  Just a thought.

EDIT 2 In regards to win con, it mattered a lot more to me when playing this deck in legacy that i should be mono U, however, if i could play either i would go for tendrils, brainfreeze has very few pluses over Tendrils especially if we are playing summer bloom.  I would worry in legacy about dealing just barely having mana to go off but with fastbond, summer bloom, time spiral and frantic search available you won't be nearly as worried about getting mana.

This doesn't affect my build but with enough untappers thawing glaciers might be worth it too.