[Deck] The Permanent Painter / innovating engine

[beder]

NB : Sorry for my imperfect english

Hi all,

This is a pretty long presentation, with details and explanations because I feel like on this website, with so many well known vintage players, when presenting a build on which you have worked seriously, you really have to be precise and to make the effort to describe your idea.

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Introduction
When it comes to using painter as a win condition, I think that many roads still have not been explored. The card itself has many synergies and the win condition can be put in many builds: I definitely think it is a marvellous enabler for innovation.

Then, I have to say that I have always been more interested in building decks with new multiple synergies and nice dynamics, than trying to find the ultimate combo or tuning existing build to define a new variant.

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The survey
Do you think that a blue instant card, which cost is , that at the same time counters spell and casts an not-couterable ancestrall is interesting?
Do you think that a blue instant card, which cost is  , that draws you 5 cards, is interesting?
Do you think that a blue instant card, which cost is , that counters a spell but asks you to sacrifice one of your permanent is interesting?

Even if not totally objective and maybe quite exaggerated, those are the main questions you have to answer. I decided to answer “YES” to those 3 questions.

This leads me to the following build: “Permanent Painter”.

To present this build, I decided as usual to propose you the list. Then instead of long explanations, I designed some small diagrams that explain the synergies which make this deck work pretty well (well, I have the diagram but cannot publish it ). Damn html technology that I don't know

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The List

// Lands
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    3 Sage of Epityr
    3 Painter's Servant
    1 Darksteel Colossus

// Mana accelerators
    1 Black Lotus
    5 Moxes
    1 Mana Crypt
// Combo
    2 Grindstone

// Disruption
    4 Force of Will
    3 Thoughtseize

// Engine
    4 Hatching Plans
    4 Abjure
    4 Perilous Research
    1 Read the Runes

// Usual suspects, search, draw and utilities
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Tinker
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Darkblast

// Sideboard contains at least
2 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Pithing Needle
+ 8 other slots

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Detailed interactions and synergies

Explanation of the synergies: the core business

In order to support the 2 key situational cards - Abjure and Hatching Plans – you need a sufficient amount of support cards.
In order to support Abjure:
-3 Sage of Epytr: this a nice first turn play, that can search and then feed a 2nd turn abjure. Then, it helps the deck being consistent (sage are my brainstorms 2-4 and also support for the engine of the deck)
Other cards tried:
     o mystic remora : was not good enough, obliging me to adopt a control role that does not fit well with the deck
     o spellstuter sprite : this is a card you want to keep in hand in order to counter a 1CC spell. As a consequence, it was not sufficiently reliable to support Abjure
-4 Hatching Plans : not a lot to say, it transformd Abjure into counter spell plus not counterable ancestral for (the sacrifice is part of the cost). When hatching plans is on board, search for abjure instead of ancestral with mystical.
-3 Painters – and then all your other permanents

In order to support Hatching Plans:
-4 Abjures
-4 Perilous Research: draw 5 for .
-1 Read the runes: this one can also be used to shuffle Darksteel Colossus back in library (could be replaced by a merchant scroll, that can find both brainstorm and Abjure)

No need to say that if you succeed in having Hatching Plans on board with Abjure in hand or “Perilllous Research” and back up, you are in a pretty good situation.

Other cards explanation
Darkblast is pretty necessary in order to deal with opponent’s welders, that are a major threat for your 2 win conditions;
Echoing truth helps you deal with… let say anything painful.

3 Thoughtseize and no red elemental blast: this has been a real question. I decided to remove red from the build in order to have a really strong manabase.
That decks does not need lot of mana (except tinker and yawgmoth, all the other spells cost less that 3). As a consequence, I only play 14 lands and not all the mana accelerators.
That deck does not use mana drain so it does not need  As a consequence, I can add a swamp and so be able to use thoughtseize turn one without being threatened by wasteland.
Last argument in favour of thoughtseize: it is really necessary against the storm combo when redblast are most of the time not able to counter the black bombs that kills you so fast.

It was a hard choice but the more I play the deck, the more I think this is the right one. First thoughtseize, then perhaps red blast. Right now, I choose not to splash red for 1 or 2 red blasts.

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The overall strategy
This is not a control deck. That’s the first thing to keep in mind.
This is not a combo deck, that’s the second thing to keep in mind.
50% of the games are won thanks to painter/stone, 50% thanks to colossus.

As for Drain Tendrils, you have to prepare your win, through a broken turn during which you are going to outdraw opponent and then be able to cast safely one of your win condition.
As soon as you can play a Hatching Plans, go for it. Then, go for the Abjure. Don’t be too greedy - Perilous Research – except if you have a backup counter in hand.
Keep in mind that as for Standstill, countering a bomb with Abjure, sacrificing Hatching as part of the cost, will draw you 3 new cards and perhaps another counter if your abjure is countered.

Some thoughts about Strength and Weaknesses of the deck

Strength
To sum-up:
- Abjure + Hatching is super broken
- Perillous research + Hatching is super broken
To detail:
-The deck is consistent and all the situational cards are not so situational. The number of mini combo to support those cards is sufficiently important in order them to be efficient and usable when needed. This deck does not rely on Hatching and does not need it to be successful. The point is: with Hatching it becomes crazy.
-This deck has not trouble doing business turn one: sage of epytr, spells -with moxes-, thoughtseize,
-This deck has some ultra broken lines of play, that happen frequently and consistently and that are very close to “good game”.
-As for control slaver, this deck has a pretty strong Yawgmoth’s will turn. All the permanents that have been previously sacrificed are available: of-color moxes (sacrificed to Perillous Research after having being used during the first turns), Hatching, sometimes even the Tolarian you just sacrificed to Perillous research before playing Yawgmoth.

Weaknesses:
It may be difficult to come back in the game if opponent has succeeded in disrupting your whole early game threats and strategy. This deck does not use the big drawers like thirst, fact ot gift. The engine of the deck relies on cards interaction more than on card power.

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Questions still opened
Splash 1 volcanic to add 1 red elemental blast : cause of its versatility, especially when painter is on board, this can be really helpful. Right now, as I already said it, I don’t think this is sufficient for a splash. The disadvantage overwhelms the advantages.

Merchant scroll: this is really a strong contender, perhaps in the “Read the runes” slot. The more I think about it, the more I feel like I definitely have to test that.

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Matchups
I cannot test in real life with real opponents. As a consequence, I have to test on mws. I generally select my opponents, not counting the guys that were obviously very poor players or with weak decks. That still doesn’t mean that my opponents are brilliant player (and given that I am also not a brilliant player, that's fair )
As a consequence, those results have to be read carefully and are surely not 100% relevant. It just provides information about the viability of the strategy. According to those results, I think that it is viable. I will not say “well, this is part of tier xxx, ….”, I just say it works well.

Control Slaver: Even to favourable Matchup. In my testings, I noticed that this deck succeeds in racing slaver, when it comes to imposing its strategy. Keep an eye on welder, this is a very strong threat.

Drain tendrils : Even to favourable Matchup. It is approximately the same situation as against Control Slaver. If I succeed in putting online 1 or 2 pieces of my engines, then I should be able to prevent them from starting their own drawing engine.

TPS and storm decks: I still have to test it, especially with the recent choice thoughtseize over red blast. The first tests with red elemental were not good.

Shop: the mana base is really stable, the key cards cost less than 3. Of course, they can race you but my testings were pretty good when it comes to this matchup (the side is not finalized for this matchup).

Aggro-Control : many tests against bomberman, this is a favourable matchup. The engine of the deck is generally online before they can disrupt it.

Painter: I didn’t test it enough. The games I played were interesting and surprisingly good. But this is perhaps because the opponent didn’t know my strategy…

Fish: this is not an easy matchup. Stifles is really painful because it is the only played card that can prevent you from drawing Hatching cards. When it comes to their mana disruption, this is not too painful because this build can operates with few mana (and has a very stable mana base)

Ichorid : well, this is ichorid. You know what I mean. A matter of choice when it comes to the sideboard slots investment.

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Conclusion

This “permanent painter” uses an engine that is different from what is played right now (no drain, no thirst, no intuition/accumulated, no bazaar, no rituals, no mana denial, no drawing creatures, …). I feel like this engine is nowadays viable and powerful due to 2 factors:
-Brainstorm restriction: makes sage of epytr not so bad when it comes to provide consistency. Given that this deck needs blue permanent to sacrifice, sage drawback – no card drawed – is somehow compensated.
-Painter creation: provides at the same time a very efficient win condition that takes few slots in the deck, and a huge source of blue permanent, for a low mana cost.

Sure it is really different from what is played today, sure the cards may look situational and not powerful by themselves. But when you play this build, you notice that the multiple synergies make the mini combo work very well.

Feel free to react, feel free to test it, feel free to be convinced, feel free to argue if doubtful.

Bye.

Nico

[ErkBek]

Very cool deck. Abjure + Hatching Plans is some amazing synergy!

I'm surprised Mystic Remora tested so poorly. What did the Remora list look like? I'd think a UR control list with Remora could be a monster.

[Xyre]

There has to be a better card for the deck than Sage of Epityr. It just doesn't feel like it does much. And I would definitely make the Read the Runes-Merchant Scroll swap. With Painter in play, Scroll is even better b/c you can get cards like your singleton Darkblast.

[meadbert]

http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?t=310931
Was that your starting point?
If so did you test that list and how did it do compared to this list?

I have found that Red Blast is just really good.  The majority of decks run Blue spells and those that do not like Perhaps Uba Stax are going to be good matchups anyway, at least for the list I was testing.  Finally you can Blast your own Hatching plans.
Against Ichorid Blast is wonderful because it actually gives you a way to remove Bazaar after one activation if you have Painter out.

Abjure seems like it could be amazing.  One concern I have is that I frequently want to use blasts to actually protect my Painter or Hatching Plans.  Abjure can only do this if you have Sage in play.

Top was really good for me in testing.  It combos with Perilous Research because you can cast Research in response to a top draw and in that manner make a 3 for 2 trade.  Also, I ran Welders so the whole Top/Welder draw engine was solid.

Perilous Research is just really good in general.  Against Wasteland.dec it nets you 2 for 1 trades all the time.  The same is true for any deck with any removal.

Leaving out Mana Vault is a mistake.  I did this at first too, but since it can be Tinkered out or Researched out or Read the Runesed out it is always going to be good for you.  It may not be quite as good in this list as it was for me since there are no Welders, but I am pretty sure that Vault is good enough to be included.

I have been testing my this list extensively (About 500 games now and I have notes for for almost 200 of those games) and it did very well overall but ran into two common problems.  The first was Chalice@1.  Here you have an excellent idea!  For some reason I never ran Tinker when even without DSC Tinkering for Painter is pretty good.  I could also Tinker for Grindstone and in that manner dodge Chalice@1.  You also run Echoing Truth which can be Demonic Tutored for so you have three ways to dodge a quick Chalice@1.  Despite Chalice@1 issues I was far more likely to open with Welder or Grindstone than your opponent is to open with Chalice@1 so that was not as huge a problem as I thought it would be.

The second problem is Long.  Specifically I was having trouble with old style Grim Long.  This weekend I playtested my list against TPS for a few hours on the side at a tournament and it had a winning record.  It appears that TPS is slower and significantly more vulnerable to Red Blast.

There were other more random problems.  One deck had 3xDSC in the board so that was problematic.
Another ran deck ran Krosan Reclamation and Yawg in the main which was not good.

I have altered my sideboard from the original post to deal with Long.  I now run this as my board:

4 Sphere of Resistance (Long)
3 Pithing Needle (Ichorid)
4 Tormod's Crypt (Long, Ichorid, Gaea's Blessing)
4 Ingot Chewer (I totally stole this from Vroman's R/B Painter list.  Ingot Chewer is amazing when you have to win with beats because they have 2xDSC or some such hate.)

I may actually add your list to my test gauntlet for the fall.  Do you have a sideboard in mind?  My summer meta was:
8 Drains
5 Shops
5 Rods
4 Rituals
3 Bazaars
3 Bobs
2 Jank Welder
2 Jank

[beder]

To ErkBek :

In fact, mystic remora put the deck in a strange tempo. I was playing a first turn mystic remora, but given that I don't need to develop mana in order to explode - or to be in a real control mode - it was not so useful. Mystic would mean adding more mana in order to be able to pay the cost and at the same time develop my strategy. I didn't succeeded in doing that (well, not in a 60 cards deck ) If you have any idea, i would be glad to hear it.
Then another pb for mystic remora : at the end, it dies. So this is not a marvelllous support for Abjure.
Those are the main reasons why I removed it.

To Xyre : you are right. Right now, sage is the card I am really not sure about. I thought about other possibilities as explained in the original post, but they didn't really convince me. Again, if you have any ideas, I would be glad to hear them.

To meadbert :
That's funny, I hadn't seen this list.
You are right, red elemental blast are really good in the deck. I tried with and without them. The results : against tps, thoughseize is really better. Against control, I still prefer thoughseize. Against aggro control or ichorid, i would prefer red elemental.
When it comes to hatching, I have to say that I have never had any issue having a card to destroy it. On the other hand, I sometimes have issue having a blue card permanent to play Abjure.
And I agree, Abjure is amazing : sometimes broken, often amazing, some very few times useless. I am working on those very few times - that is when I have no sage, no painter, no hatching on board...

When it comes to mana vault, I have to say that I have been coherent : I also didn't use sol ring The main reason is that I really don't need much mana. Given that I don't need a painter online first turn, I prefer another play - sage, thoughseize, hatching with a mox, .... As a consequence, I noticed that Ii often had mana available by the end of the turn without any use for it (I do not play thirst). So I decided only to play the 0CC permanent accelerators.

When it comes to the side, if not in main, darkblast - or lavadart if playing red and no black - is a must have. This card prevented me from loosing so many games, especially against an early welder or dark conf.
Then, I like having a mix of extirpate and tormod's to deal with gaea's and ichorid. Extirpate can also be really useful in an offensive way (in mirror, on red elemental for instance).
Pithing needle is also a must : against welder, against ichorid, against ... In fact, my side is not so different from yours right now. But i am not really satisfied cause I have difficulties against decks that can board a huge number of red elemental blast. Perhaps am going to add blue elemental blast

[meadbert]

Blue blast could be really good since it also handles Welder!

[Nehptis]

There has to be a better card for the deck than Sage of Epityr. It just doesn't feel like it does much.

It seems that Sage is actually important to the deck:
  It is a permanent that comes out Turn 1 that can be sacrificed to Perilous Research.
  It is a blue permanent that comes out Turn 1 that can be sacrificed to Abjure.
  It has a pretty decent CIP ability.
  It can be pitched to FOW.
  In a pinch it can be used to chump.

That seems pretty decent.

I agree though, cut Runes for something like Merchant Scroll.

This looks like a decent deck on paper.  But, I'm afraid that in a tourney it's gonna be one of those decks that in theory should do really well.  But, what ends up happening is that the mini combos never come together and instead you have hands that have Abjures without Plans or Research without Sage or Plans.  But, good luck and keep us posted.

[the boogie man]

instead of sage, you could potentially run cursecatcher. Then, if you don't have abjure, he doesn't suck so hard.

[beder]

This looks like a decent deck on paper.  But, I'm afraid that in a tourney it's gonna be one of those decks that in theory should do really well.  But, what ends up happening is that the mini combos never come together and instead you have hands that have Abjures without Plans or Research without Sage or Plans.  But, good luck and keep us posted.

Well, this has never been played on a tournament. Effectively, one could be affraid of all the mini combos ending up often not being available. But to sum up, there are 2 enablers required :
- have a blue permanent to sacrifice : 12 blue permanents in the build => 4 x , 4 x , 4 x (in the red list described in this post for instance). This is quite a garantee that you will have your blue permanent available soon, generally turn 1.
- have a card to sacrifice a blue permanent or a card that uses a permanent to increase its power : 8 + tutors in the U/b build, 11 + tutors in the U/b/r. That's pretty consistent. Even when disrupted.

Then, one has to keep in mind that the use of sage of epytr improves the consistency of the mini combos, insuring you to find the pieces you need.

As for other decks, the first turn is used to prepare a second or third turn that is broken.

instead of sage, you could potentially run cursecatcher. Then, if you don't have abjure, he doesn't suck so hard.

I definitely prefer sage over curscatcher. In this deck that has no mana denial components and that is made of mini combos, the sage ability is better that the curscatcher's one. Morevoer, given that I will have to sacrifice the creature, I prefer an ability which type is "when comes into play" or "when goes to graveyard" : this reduces the card disadvantage effect of Abjure.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

For information, here is the other list I am using, the one with red but no toughtseize.

// Lands
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4 Sage of Epityr
    3 Painter's Servant
    1 Darksteel Colossus

// Mana accelerators
    1 Black Lotus
    5 Moxes
    1 Mana Crypt

// Disruption
    4 Force of Will
    2 Red elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
   (+ the 4 Abjures of course)

// Engine
    4 Hatching Plans
    4 Abjure
    4 Perilous Research

// Usual suspect, search and draw
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Tinker
    1 Time Walk
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Vampiric Tutor

// The differences
More consistent when it comes to apply the strategy (4th sage, use of blast that create another synergy with Hatching, ...),
Less stable mana base : more vulnerable to waste.
Red blasts over thoughtseize (this is perhaps a matter of taste). Advantage to red blast when painter are on board, advantage to thoughtseize when painter isn't on board.

[Qube]

First of all nice deck overall.

I like to play Servant decs and this is a very interessting one.

But some thoughts of me:

If you want to have a good mana base, why you just play blue/red? REB is just in the most case very useful with or without Painter.

What's with Cunning Wish with a wishboard? I looked for a SB:

3 Tormold's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
1 Repeal
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Gaea's Blessing

Hydroblast is also very good against welder and if you play against a deck which is playing red you can board your REB against the Hydroblasts and anything. It's also good with the Wish.

I would prefer to play also the Library, me thought about the Manabase:

1 Lotus
5 Moxe
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

4 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

The disruption will be:

4 Force of Will
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Abjure

What you think about this idees?

Peace Qube

[meadbert]

I did some testing.  Black really helps against Long.  You have Tutors to speed up your clock and then Duress/Thoughtseize really help.

Against most everything else Red is better.

Also, Mystic Remora was working out very well for me.  You draw a few cards with it till you do not want to pay the upkeep and then you cast Perilous Research to trade it for another card.  Mystic Remora was just really amazing!

[mike_bergeron]

NB : Sorry for my imperfect english

Hi all,

This is a pretty long presentation, with details and explanations because I feel like on this website, with so many well known vintage players, when presenting a build on which you have worked seriously, you really have to be precise and to make the effort to describe your idea.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Introduction
When it comes to using painter as a win condition, I think that many roads still have not been explored. The card itself has many synergies and the win condition can be put in many builds: I definitely think it is a marvellous enabler for innovation.

Then, I have to say that I have always been more interested in building decks with new multiple synergies and nice dynamics, than trying to find the ultimate combo or tuning existing build to define a new variant.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The survey
Do you think that a blue instant card, which cost is , that at the same time counters spell and casts an not-couterable ancestrall is interesting?
Do you think that a blue instant card, which cost is  , that draws you 5 cards, is interesting?
Do you think that a blue instant card, which cost is , that counters a spell but asks you to sacrifice one of your permanent is interesting?

Even if not totally objective and maybe quite exaggerated, those are the main questions you have to answer. I decided to answer “YES” to those 3 questions.

This leads me to the following build: “Permanent Painter”.

To present this build, I decided as usual to propose you the list. Then instead of long explanations, I designed some small diagrams that explain the synergies which make this deck work pretty well (well, I have the diagram but cannot publish it ). Damn html technology that I don't know

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The List

// Lands
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    3 Sage of Epityr
    3 Painter's Servant
    1 Darksteel Colossus

// Mana accelerators
    1 Black Lotus
    5 Moxes
    1 Mana Crypt
// Combo
    2 Grindstone

// Disruption
    4 Force of Will
    3 Thoughtseize

// Engine
    4 Hatching Plans
    4 Abjure
    4 Perilous Research
    1 Read the Runes

// Usual suspects, search, draw and utilities
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Tinker
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Darkblast

// Sideboard contains at least
2 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Pithing Needle
+ 8 other slots

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Detailed interactions and synergies

Explanation of the synergies: the core business

In order to support the 2 key situational cards - Abjure and Hatching Plans – you need a sufficient amount of support cards.
In order to support Abjure:
-3 Sage of Epytr: this a nice first turn play, that can search and then feed a 2nd turn abjure. Then, it helps the deck being consistent (sage are my brainstorms 2-4 and also support for the engine of the deck)
Other cards tried:
     o mystic remora : was not good enough, obliging me to adopt a control role that does not fit well with the deck
     o spellstuter sprite : this is a card you want to keep in hand in order to counter a 1CC spell. As a consequence, it was not sufficiently reliable to support Abjure
-4 Hatching Plans : not a lot to say, it transformd Abjure into counter spell plus not counterable ancestral for (the sacrifice is part of the cost). When hatching plans is on board, search for abjure instead of ancestral with mystical.
-3 Painters – and then all your other permanents

In order to support Hatching Plans:
-4 Abjures
-4 Perilous Research: draw 5 for .
-1 Read the runes: this one can also be used to shuffle Darksteel Colossus back in library (could be replaced by a merchant scroll, that can find both brainstorm and Abjure)

No need to say that if you succeed in having Hatching Plans on board with Abjure in hand or “Perilllous Research” and back up, you are in a pretty good situation.

Other cards explanation
Darkblast is pretty necessary in order to deal with opponent’s welders, that are a major threat for your 2 win conditions;
Echoing truth helps you deal with… let say anything painful.

3 Thoughtseize and no red elemental blast: this has been a real question. I decided to remove red from the build in order to have a really strong manabase.
That decks does not need lot of mana (except tinker and yawgmoth, all the other spells cost less that 3). As a consequence, I only play 14 lands and not all the mana accelerators.
That deck does not use mana drain so it does not need  As a consequence, I can add a swamp and so be able to use thoughtseize turn one without being threatened by wasteland.
Last argument in favour of thoughtseize: it is really necessary against the storm combo when redblast are most of the time not able to counter the black bombs that kills you so fast.

It was a hard choice but the more I play the deck, the more I think this is the right one. First thoughtseize, then perhaps red blast. Right now, I choose not to splash red for 1 or 2 red blasts.

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The overall strategy
This is not a control deck. That’s the first thing to keep in mind.
This is not a combo deck, that’s the second thing to keep in mind.
50% of the games are won thanks to painter/stone, 50% thanks to colossus.

As for Drain Tendrils, you have to prepare your win, through a broken turn during which you are going to outdraw opponent and then be able to cast safely one of your win condition.
As soon as you can play a Hatching Plans, go for it. Then, go for the Abjure. Don’t be too greedy - Perilous Research – except if you have a backup counter in hand.
Keep in mind that as for Standstill, countering a bomb with Abjure, sacrificing Hatching as part of the cost, will draw you 3 new cards and perhaps another counter if your abjure is countered.

Some thoughts about Strength and Weaknesses of the deck

Strength
To sum-up:
- Abjure + Hatching is super broken
- Perillous research + Hatching is super broken
To detail:
-The deck is consistent and all the situational cards are not so situational. The number of mini combo to support those cards is sufficiently important in order them to be efficient and usable when needed. This deck does not rely on Hatching and does not need it to be successful. The point is: with Hatching it becomes crazy.
-This deck has not trouble doing business turn one: sage of epytr, spells -with moxes-, thoughtseize,
-This deck has some ultra broken lines of play, that happen frequently and consistently and that are very close to “good game”.
-As for control slaver, this deck has a pretty strong Yawgmoth’s will turn. All the permanents that have been previously sacrificed are available: of-color moxes (sacrificed to Perillous Research after having being used during the first turns), Hatching, sometimes even the Tolarian you just sacrificed to Perillous research before playing Yawgmoth.

Weaknesses:
It may be difficult to come back in the game if opponent has succeeded in disrupting your whole early game threats and strategy. This deck does not use the big drawers like thirst, fact ot gift. The engine of the deck relies on cards interaction more than on card power.

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Questions still opened
Splash 1 volcanic to add 1 red elemental blast : cause of its versatility, especially when painter is on board, this can be really helpful. Right now, as I already said it, I don’t think this is sufficient for a splash. The disadvantage overwhelms the advantages.

Merchant scroll: this is really a strong contender, perhaps in the “Read the runes” slot. The more I think about it, the more I feel like I definitely have to test that.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Matchups
I cannot test in real life with real opponents. As a consequence, I have to test on mws. I generally select my opponents, not counting the guys that were obviously very poor players or with weak decks. That still doesn’t mean that my opponents are brilliant player (and given that I am also not a brilliant player, that's fair )
As a consequence, those results have to be read carefully and are surely not 100% relevant. It just provides information about the viability of the strategy. According to those results, I think that it is viable. I will not say “well, this is part of tier xxx, ….”, I just say it works well.

Control Slaver: Even to favourable Matchup. In my testings, I noticed that this deck succeeds in racing slaver, when it comes to imposing its strategy. Keep an eye on welder, this is a very strong threat.

Drain tendrils : Even to favourable Matchup. It is approximately the same situation as against Control Slaver. If I succeed in putting online 1 or 2 pieces of my engines, then I should be able to prevent them from starting their own drawing engine.

TPS and storm decks: I still have to test it, especially with the recent choice thoughtseize over red blast. The first tests with red elemental were not good.

Shop: the mana base is really stable, the key cards cost less than 3. Of course, they can race you but my testings were pretty good when it comes to this matchup (the side is not finalized for this matchup).

Aggro-Control : many tests against bomberman, this is a favourable matchup. The engine of the deck is generally online before they can disrupt it.

Painter: I didn’t test it enough. The games I played were interesting and surprisingly good. But this is perhaps because the opponent didn’t know my strategy…

Fish: this is not an easy matchup. Stifles is really painful because it is the only played card that can prevent you from drawing Hatching cards. When it comes to their mana disruption, this is not too painful because this build can operates with few mana (and has a very stable mana base)

Ichorid : well, this is ichorid. You know what I mean. A matter of choice when it comes to the sideboard slots investment.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Conclusion

This “permanent painter” uses an engine that is different from what is played right now (no drain, no thirst, no intuition/accumulated, no bazaar, no rituals, no mana denial, no drawing creatures, …). I feel like this engine is nowadays viable and powerful due to 2 factors:
-Brainstorm restriction: makes sage of epytr not so bad when it comes to provide consistency. Given that this deck needs blue permanent to sacrifice, sage drawback – no card drawed – is somehow compensated.
-Painter creation: provides at the same time a very efficient win condition that takes few slots in the deck, and a huge source of blue permanent, for a low mana cost.

Sure it is really different from what is played today, sure the cards may look situational and not powerful by themselves. But when you play this build, you notice that the multiple synergies make the mini combo work very well.

Feel free to react, feel free to test it, feel free to be convinced, feel free to argue if doubtful.

Bye.

Nico

Crack the earth works well with hatching plans.  it also makes your opponent lose a permanent too, which is an added bonus.  I think this is plan B against aggro decks as well. 

I think Red/Blue with Blasts can be pretty good as well, you can blow up your own hatching plans with blast or crack the earth, which would effectively be: 1RU: Draw three cards, sacrifice an enchantment.  also, red blast give you game against drain as well, which can be a bonus.

[Grand Inquisitor]

this has never been played on a tournament

That's not exactly true.  I played Team Hadley's version of this at Ray's a few weeks back.  Unfortunately I was way on tilt and played my way out of a couple rounds.

The deck's principles are solid.  The card combinations work well and often.  The trick is finding the right overall strategy (combo vs. control), the right kill condition (I'm not completely sold on Painter, but it does have tremendous synergy), and the right splash.

I played the following:

8 lotus, ring, crypt, moxen
2 island
2 underground sea
2 volcanic island
1 loa
7 fetches

1 DSC
3 Painter
1 Grindstone

4 Force of Will
4 REB
3 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
2 Commandeer (yes, commandeer)
1 Cunning Wish

1 Tinker
1 Vamp
1 Demonic
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgwill
1 Brainstorm

4 Perilous Research
3 Hatching Plans
3 Read the Runes

It played pretty well, but I'd definitely make some changes.  It really needed 23 sources, which is fine since perilous research and read the runes can get rid of extra land during mid-game.  The balance between combo pieces, engine cards, and answers is really tenuous.  This is what I'm working on in testing right now, and I really don't have a good answer yet.

Commandeer looks awful, but works quite well, and has great synergy with painter, and is a bomb in the painter mirror (getting quite common in the NE metagame).  However, it's still quite possible that there are lower risk ways to win the same games.  Commandeers and Misdirections were also great at filtering extra land, combo pieces or unusable hatchings (rare) in a pinch.

abjure...crack the earth

These seem a little too situational.  I think I'd almost exclusively rather have REB.

Sage of Epityr

This looks really weak, but the deck does need cheap filtering, and the synergies are obvious; I'm kinda looking forward to testing it.

Mystic Remor

This is really a different deck.  With remora I'd think you need to go up to 24-26 sources and you're really squeezed for room already.  However, my build was very controllish, which may be one of its biggest liabilities.  Using the remora for tempo and then going quick combo could work well.

[beder]

this has never been played on a tournament

That's not exactly true.  I played Team Hadley's version of this at Ray's a few weeks back.  Unfortunately I was way on tilt and played my way out of a couple rounds.

Oups, didn't know that. Well, I meant "I never played this build on a tournament". Should have been more accurate. But given that English is not my mother tongue language, I should be excused

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote
this has never been played on a tournament

That's not exactly true

Sorry, that may have come out on the abrasive side.  My intent was to let people know that a similar deck has been played (albeit played badly) in a competitive T1 field.  I wasn't trying to call you out or anything and your english is fine.

More I was trying to encourage discussion because I think the synergies allowed in these card combinations is of high enough power level to compete in T1, but I haven't had a lot of time to work on it, and at present it doesn't have the right mix of 60 cards.

[beder]

Quote
this has never been played on a tournament

That's not exactly true

Sorry, that may have come out on the abrasive side.  My intent was to let people know that a similar deck has been played (albeit played badly) in a competitive T1 field.  I wasn't trying to call you out or anything and your english is fine.

More I was trying to encourage discussion because I think the synergies allowed in these card combinations is of high enough power level to compete in T1, but I haven't had a lot of time to work on it, and at present it doesn't have the right mix of 60 cards.

I was just joking - but french humor is perhaps not always funny . Don't worry, I really didn't feel you being abrasive.
I totally agree with you, those 2 or 3 cards - perillous, hatching and abjure - really have some of the "can be broken if put in the right deck" caracteristics :
- In the right color - meaning blue or black
- Not expensive and more important, with just one in the mana cost
- Have huge synergies with other useful cards (red blast for instance)
- Can be usefull even if not within combo
- Are ultra broken if combo

The build I proposed has been tested a while : It worked really well. This is of course not a proof of it being really strong but it is a clue. I am pretty sure it can be adjusted and improved in order to make this main engine really efficent. It is already but I feel like it can be even more.

NB1 : I have to admit that I am not so sure when it comes to excluding red blast in order to play thougthseize. I still have to test in order to determine which is the more efficient :
- U/b build : the first one presented
or
- U/b/r build : the second one presented
or perhaps
- U/R, as it has been suggested

NB2 : sage of epytr is perhaps the best solution if you want to be able to use abjure. On a tempo point of view, it fits well with the overall build tactic. Then, on a combo point of view, it really helps improving the mini combo consistency. Finally, as for brainstorm in the old days, it allows you to keep an hand with only one mana (which is pretty usefull given that I only play 14 lands in the 2 builds presented).
Up until now, there is only one contender for those slot, remora. Meadbert tested them and liked it, I did but didn't like them. My main reproach : they finished being sacrificed and so I was not able to use them in order to consistenly support Abjure.

[DerMeik]

Probably it is interesting for you that we are also working on some deck which uses Perilous Research and Hatching Plans in germany. As an additional sac outlet we make use of Drinker of Sorrow. The Drinker is our primary win condition besides Tinker DSC and it works very well during our tests.

I also wanted to add Painter to those lists like you did beder but in my case i want to stay UB for reasons of stability.

@ Beder: How often did you play Hatching Plan without having any possibility to sacrifice it during your testing? I mean the card itself reminds in some way on Standstill but it does actually nothing on its own. So how do you play it. Do you play it and hope that you find some outlet to use it or do you keep it in your hand until you have something to use it and bluff?

DerMeik

[Xyre]

Re: Mystic Remora: Plus you can Abjure it after getting a card off your opponent! I think Remora is better in this deck than Sage.

Also, while Commandeer may be bluntly awesome, it's very needy when it comes to Painter, and it's incredibly card-disadvantageous. Those are the main reasons to avoid it.

I would suggest a list like this:

4 Painter's Servant
1 Darksteel Colossus
3 REB/Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
4 Hatching Plans
4 Abjure
4 Perilous Research
3 Mystic Remora
2 Grindstone
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
2 Chain of Vapor/Hurkyl's Recall/Echoing Truth
+ Mana

This is 1 card too many; I don't know what the cut would be. Probably Painter #4, which is probably a little extraneous (even though it powers most of the deck). You may be able to cut Painter 4 and Grindstone 2 to play the fourth REB/Pyroblast to give you a bit stronger control base, because you have enough tutors to fill the gap out.

[beder]

@ Beder: How often did you play Hatching Plan without having any possibility to sacrifice it during your testing? I mean the card itself reminds in some way on Standstill but it does actually nothing on its own. So how do you play it. Do you play it and hope that you find some outlet to use it or do you keep it in your hand until you have something to use it and bluff?

I almost never have issue being able to sacrifice Hatching. Indeed, as soon as your opponent understand the engine of this deck, it starts to counter/discard Hatching. As a consequence, you don't need as much cards to support hatching than cards to support Ajure (it is like if you don't have 4 hatching in the build, given that it quickly becomes a main target for opponent disruption).

When it comes to the way I play Hatching, my rule is easy : I play it as soon as I can. Sometimes, as for standstill, it prevents the opponent from playing cards, cause affraid of abjure. So he waits in order to get some more cards - sometimes, this delay allow me to find that abjure I didn't have orginally in hand. Where it differs from standstill, is that it does not prevent you from playing and advancing in your overall game plan.

[beder]

Probably it is interesting for you that we are also working on some deck which uses Perilous Research and Hatching Plans in germany. As an additional sac outlet we make use of Drinker of Sorrow. The Drinker is our primary win condition besides Tinker DSC and it works very well during our tests.

I thought about using Phyrexian negator or Drinker of Sorrow as a win condition. Up until now, I have to admit that I never tested it.
Can you provide use with some feed back? Especially when it comes to the sacrifice effect of Driner : is it good? Cause except when Hatching is on board, you don't want to sacrifice a permanent.

[Neonico]

Commandeer was only good in the 4 gush version of the deck, where youcan gush and pitch 2 lands.... Its too much card disadvantage in this version.

[DerMeik]

Probably it is interesting for you that we are also working on some deck which uses Perilous Research and Hatching Plans in germany. As an additional sac outlet we make use of Drinker of Sorrow. The Drinker is our primary win condition besides Tinker DSC and it works very well during our tests.

I thought about using Phyrexian Negator or Drinker of Sorrow as a win condition. Up until now, I have to admit that I never tested it.
Can you provide use with some feed back? Especially when it comes to the sacrifice effect of Drinker : is it good? Cause except when Hatching is on board, you don't want to sacrifice a permanent.

In our lists we use both of them Negator and Drinker. The sacrifice effect doesn't really matter because you have so much carddraw that you should have enough permanents to support Drinker of Sorrow. You can also sacrifice unused lands to the Drinker because our deck just needs three mana. This builds up a well performing draw engine with Plans, Drinker and Perilous Research.

Yawgmoths Will also gets stronger if you have sacrificed permanent before you play it.

[Duncan]

Probably it is interesting for you that we are also working on some deck which uses Perilous Research and Hatching Plans in germany. As an additional sac outlet we make use of Drinker of Sorrow. The Drinker is our primary win condition besides Tinker DSC and it works very well during our tests.

I thought about using Phyrexian Negator or Drinker of Sorrow as a win condition. Up until now, I have to admit that I never tested it.
Can you provide use with some feed back? Especially when it comes to the sacrifice effect of Drinker : is it good? Cause except when Hatching is on board, you don't want to sacrifice a permanent.

In our lists we use both of them Negator and Drinker. The sacrifice effect doesn't really matter because you have so much carddraw that you should have enough permanents to support Drinker of Sorrow. You can also sacrifice unused lands to the Drinker because our deck just needs three mana. This builds up a well performing draw engine with Plans, Drinker and Perilous Research.

Yawgmoths Will also gets stronger if you have sacrificed permanent before you play it.

Do you have a decklist of this deck using the Drinker and Negator?

[DerMeik]

Probably it is interesting for you that we are also working on some deck which uses Perilous Research and Hatching Plans in germany. As an additional sac outlet we make use of Drinker of Sorrow. The Drinker is our primary win condition besides Tinker DSC and it works very well during our tests.

I thought about using Phyrexian Negator or Drinker of Sorrow as a win condition. Up until now, I have to admit that I never tested it.
Can you provide use with some feed back? Especially when it comes to the sacrifice effect of Drinker : is it good? Cause except when Hatching is on board, you don't want to sacrifice a permanent.

In our lists we use both of them Negator and Drinker. The sacrifice effect doesn't really matter because you have so much carddraw that you should have enough permanents to support Drinker of Sorrow. You can also sacrifice unused lands to the Drinker because our deck just needs three mana. This builds up a well performing draw engine with Plans, Drinker and Perilous Research.

Yawgmoths Will also gets stronger if you have sacrificed permanent before you play it.

Do you have a decklist of this deck using the Drinker and Negator?

The deck is not anything special:

1 Tolarian Academy
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Swamp

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

2 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Drinker of Sorrow
1 Darksteel Collossus

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawghmoths Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Senseis Divining Top
4 Hatching Plans
4 Perilous Research

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Mana Drain 
1 Echoing Truth
 
So the Deck consists basically of the engine, some mana and some disruption.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

two minor nitpicks:

if you have a basic swamp, I'd go for 4 polluted delta, 2 flooded strand.
I don't think tolarian academy makes the cut in this deck, as it will seldom produce more than U. (Not even full accelleration. Suppose sometimes you have to sacrifice a mox to drinker as well) You could play with 7 fetches or strip mine in this case.

Other than that, I like the agressiveness of the deck. Could you include the following to make it a lot better?:
4x null rod

My suggestion:

- tinker
- colossus
(thei're not needed with your hungry horrors. You run very few artifacts to sac, 11 dmg with confidant is nasty.)
- 1 mana drain
- sensei's top (although I like this card a lot. It's just the thing that I think you don't really need to smooth out your draws. If confidant becomes a problem, you can always sac him to whatever.) 

Null rod makes your 6 5/x creatures a lot better as you'll get more swings.

[credmond]

Crucible of worlds (along with some wastes/strip) is a card that supports Drinker of Sorrows and Perilous Research nicely. With a few null rod it allows you to put heavy mana denial pressure on your opponent while you build up tempo with bobs or research. I would trim some of the artifact acceleration for some wastes and crucible in there along with the previously recommended null rod. And once null rod is in there, Yawgmoth's will seems entirely muted and should be replaced for something more powerful.

Also, shouldn't time walk be in the list somewhere. Extra turns of gator or drinker beats or bob draws is a good thing.

[DerMeik]

In my opinion the new hype on Null Rod is an American thing and the list was made for European tournaments where Null Rod is not worth playing it. Probably you guys find a way to add it to the list and make good results with it in the US.

I just forgot to add Time Walk. It is of course part of the deck.

I have not tested the list that much by now because I am also working on some other decks right now but during those few tests the Tolarian Academy was doing well all the time.