Best win condition for Manaless Ichorid?

[Adan]

Double post due to misclick again... I apologize. Why can't I delete my own posts btw.?

[FAVO!!!!1]

The Win now, basically referring to FKZ or Sutured Ghoul, are the worst imo, as they are often the most resource dependent.

Why? You need 3 creatures, DR and the target. And you only need 2 Bridges. That should be possible when you are dredging 15-18 cards per turn and you will most likely win on Turn 3.

As meadbert will point out, your basically living the dream when your winning with these guys already, making them much more situational.

And why is it a dream to have at least 2 Bridges and the other stuff? I mean, if I won't win immediately, I simply don't DR. Instead, I'd perforate his hand with multiple Therapies. That's exactly the same thing that Hypnotist does/would do (except that he will hit the irrelevant chaff as well).

When your trying to lock the game out by Turn 2, needing 3 creatures that hits your graveyard (Fatestitcher doesn't hit the graveyard) is a hefty requirement. It is easier to dread return and lock the game on Turn 2 with a Hypnotist instead of hoping they don't answer your stocked graveyard and/or draw the nuts. Obviously, Yawg Will CAN pull them out of that situation, but that takes some mad skill to win on turn 3 (best case scenario and obviously assuming they are on the play) while behind on card quantity.

The "Win" now guys are my personal choice (Titan, Razer, Hypnotist, etc) as they put you in a situation almost as good as the Win now, in that your opponent has a one turn window to get extremely lucky (though I recognize that there is those possibilities in Vintage) or else its over, while being much less resource dependent. The flexible guys are just that, not quite featuring the same raw power as the other two groups but randomly doing nice things.

Random nice things =/= win immediately.

Seriously, having at least 2 Bridges is really not utopic or something. I still don't see why you should ever give the opponent one additional turn, especially in a format where topdecking can fuck you like in non other format.
Notice how Dread Return for Hypnotist does shit against the guys who will then just Mystical/Vampiric for Y.Will and then blow you out of the water because you just can't do anything useful to prevent him drawing that card. Solution: Win immediately!

True story!

So you'll give your opponent the opportunity to fuck you over with a Echoing Truth plus other random Counters they are likely to draw with your their 2nd/3rd turn? Random Therapies, in my opinion, are just as relevant as you view our random "Nice things." Just as I and a couple other people in this thread have said before - Mathematically, it is harder to come back from a Turn 2 Mind twist than it is a couple of random Therapies. Your opponents can mise outs against Hypnotist just like they can against Flame-Kin; but in my testing, there are fewer outs to Hypnotist than there is to Flame-Kin, and thus my reason for running the Hypnotist.

On top of that, we still run the same engine package which serves as the basis of our recovery in games 2/3. I don't see how this is not a relevant clock in game 1.

[Adan]

So you'll give your opponent the opportunity to fuck you over with a Echoing Truth plus other random Counters they are likely to draw with your their 2nd/3rd turn? Random Therapies, in my opinion, are just as relevant as you view our random "Nice things."

If he draws counters, it doesn't make any difference whether you play Hypnotist or FKZ, you have to Therapy for them before you DR in any case - no difference!

If he plays Echoing Truth (which is really really not played frequently!), he can still screw your tokens away. Again, it won't make a difference whether you play Hypnotist or FKZ (he can play E-Truth when DR is on the stack but you already have your tokens) - no difference!

Except that you will win immediately if DR resolves, Hypnotist is one or 2 turns slower. And I guess it can be very relevant if he draws 2 additional cards or not.

Just as I and a couple other people in this thread have said before - Mathematically, it is harder to come back from a Turn 2 Mind twist than it is a couple of random Therapies. Your opponents can mise outs against Hypnotist just like they can against Flame-Kin; but in my testing, there are fewer outs to Hypnotist than there is to Flame-Kin, and thus my reason for running the Hypnotist.

That's is really not true. The cards you don't Therapy for are irrelevant (such as non-counters and non-carddraw) and useless for the opponent against you; discarding them as well with Hypnotist just changes NOTHING about the odds of his topdeck or whatsoever. It really doesn't.

And concering outs against them, it also makes no difference. The only difference is that you can stifle FKZ to prevent the Dredger from running you over, but you will win next turn. But If you play it correctly, the amount of outs won't change against either FKZ or Hypnotist.

Just to recap the point I mentioned above:

When you Dread Return your creature, it goes as follows:

1) Sac 3 creatures
2) DR on stack targeting FKZ/Hypnotist
3) Bridges go onto the stack
4) Bridges resolve, you get tokens
5) DR resolves, you get FKZ/Hypnotist, you win or mindtwist.

Between step 4 and 5, the outs you mentioned against FKZ and Hypnotist are equal as the opponent can cast E.Truth, pop EE or Powder Keg and so on... The only difference I can see is that FKZ can be stifled by some random fishesque decks (which don't see much play as well).
I'd really run more real stuff instead of cute stuff. My maindeck is already stuffed with disruption, I guess DR should be the card that either ends the game or saves your ass from annoying stuff (-> DR for Angel of Despair for instance).

edit:

I have to say this again, Hypnotist also blows against: Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Sensei's Divining Top and Imperial Seal.

Mystical and Vamp played in response to Hypnotist is like "Hah, fuel my graveyard, I'll Yawgmoth's Win now", Imperial Seal is like "You should better win NOW!" and Sensei's Divining Top is like "I can still dig for my bomb to blow you out of the water, wait for it!"