Best win condition for Manaless Ichorid?

[Doomsday]

I use the Sutured Ghoul build, which seems to be much less popular than the Zealot.  You guys are the experts so what are the pros and cons for each?

This is what I was thinking by using the Ghoul, so if anyone could point out errors it would be appreciated:

Obviously if you purge your graveyard with the Ghoul and he gets removed, then you're screwed, but you don't put him out there without using cabal therapy first anyway, right?

Is it just that the Zealot requires fewer slots because Dragon Breath isn't needed?  The drawback for him seems to be that if you don't get a turn 0 Leyline, them getting a creature in their graveyard completely wipes you out (both can be played without tokens just off Narcomoebas & Ichorids, but with the Ghoul no army is required, where the Zealot needs the token army to attack with him). 

Thanks.

[Little Joe]

Sadistic hypnotist

[Beralt]

I think your choices are Sadistic Hypnotist vs Flame-Kin.  Sutured seems very vulnerable and requirethe extra card(s) of Dragons Breath.

I initially wrote off Sadistic but have come to like it more and more vs a wider variety of decks.  I have seen a typical vintage top deck of Yawg Win beating Sadistic, but beyond that - nothing. Sadistic is a bit slower but more inevitable - my vote goes to Sadistic.

[Elfrago]

My vote goes to Sadistic and Realm Razer. I'm not sure which one is better.

We all know the pros of the first, but the second IMHO deserves a test (which at the moment I can't do).
He has a similiar effect to Sadistic, denying your opponent resources rather than winning right away, but he saves you from topdeck tutors, topdecked yawg win and sometimes even from key-vault. Besides Unmask and Cabal Therapy do already disrupt your opponent's hand.

[pointofinfo]

To report my personal experience, I've tried the following options:

-2 Flame-Kin Zealot (hereafter FKZ)
-1 FKZ, 2 Sadistic Hypnotist
-2 FKZ, 1 Sadistic Hypnotist
-2 FKZ, 2 Sadistic Hypnotist
-1 Sutured Ghoul, 1 Dragon Breath
-3 FKZ
-2 Realm Razer, 1 FKZ
-1 Realm Razer, 2 FKZ
-1 Inkwell Leviathan, 1 FKZ, 1 Sadistic Hypnotist

What I've found is that:
1. 1 FKZ is too few, as it just doesn't come up enough, and 3 FKZ is too many. I saw this on a thread, tried it, and it is just a complete overload. If you have the resources to do the second DR for FKZ number two, you are likely better off using a Hypnotist to wreck your opponent's hand or something similar. 2 is my maximum, and I prefer 1.
2. Sutured Ghoul folds to Fish. In the very early builds (like, Reanimate old), this guy was cool, but he is pretty bad in the face of spot removal.
3. Realm Razer is very bad. If your opponent has or artifact mana, this guy just elicits a shrug and takes away your Bazaar.
4. Inkwell is pretty interesting, but just like Hypnotist, he doesn't read, "Win the game" quite like FKZ.
5. The 2/1 split may be a card too few, but I don't see where the extra Hypnotist is really going to be better than an Angel of Despair most games.
6. 2 FKZ, 2 Hypno seems like the optimal mix for Manaless builds, though I haven't tested them as thoroughly as my preference is Mana Ichorid. Still, the 2/2 split requires only cutting a Golgari Thug (if that), which is probably worth it.

[A_Outcast]

i personally like 1 fkz, 2 hypnotisy, AND a realm razor just because having the options is always nice.  the more options you have the better equipd you are to deal with your opponents current board position.

[Marske]

My current list has gotten a 9th place finish in a Stax filled meta and now a 4th place finish in a meta consisted out of 1/4 Stax. So it doesn't seem to worry about the strip / waste locks or sphers all that much. I've reliably been able to beat Drain decks and only faced problems when playing against Combo games 2-3. I've been a huge fan of having 1 FKZ and 2 hypnotist. I wouldn't consider this mana ichorid nor manaless ichorid.. It's basically powder dredge as Meatbert once called decks running serum powder.

For reference the list:

Ichorid
Piloted by Boaz van Driel suggested by M. van Zundert
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38451.0

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Sadistic Hypnotist
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Fatestitcher

4 Serum Powder
4 Bridge from Below
4 Unmask
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:
1 Angel of Despair
2 Pithing Needle
3 Darkblast
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor

[voltron00x]

My current list has gotten a 9th place finish in a Stax filled meta and now a 4th place finish in a meta consisted out of 1/4 Stax. So it doesn't seem to worry about the strip / waste locks or sphers all that much. I've reliably been able to beat Drain decks and only faced problems when playing against Combo games 2-3. I've been a huge fan of having 1 FKZ and 2 hypnotist. I wouldn't consider this mana ichorid nor manaless ichorid.. It's basically powder dredge as Meatbert once called decks running serum powder.

For reference the list:

Ichorid
Piloted by Boaz van Driel suggested by M. van Zundert
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38451.0

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Sadistic Hypnotist
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Fatestitcher

4 Serum Powder
4 Bridge from Below
4 Unmask
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:
1 Angel of Despair
2 Pithing Needle
3 Darkblast
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor

This is, more or less, what I ran on 5/23/09 and wrote about on SCG.  You've swapped 1 Ichorid for 1 Unmask (seems ok, personally I really liked having the extra Ichorid), 1 FKZ for 1 Hypnotist (which I suggested after the tournament and think is correct), and made minor changes to the SB (which I mostly like).  I think this list is very, very good - although, I'm curious, what deck are you bringing in the Angel against?

[Adan]

I play the build on place 5 (that's me fyi): http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1085

I won a small tournament in Dillingen with it, going 6-0-1 (3-0-1 in the swiss rounds, 3-0 in the playoffs).

I think you really don't need more than 2 Zealots as you will always win immediately if DR resolves. Sadistic Hypnotist is garbage, especially because a lot of decks now play Dark Confidant and Sensei's Divining Tops which allow them to topdeck like hell. And topdecking can either be prevented by counters or simply by not letting him do his turn (i.e. defeat him).

I also don't see Real Razer to be good. Ichorid consistently wins before Turn 5, therefore the opponent shouldn't have too many lands to rip off. Sundering Titan does this job better because he doesn't remove your Bazaar (I mean, what the fuck, why should you abandon Bazaar to DR such a whimsy guy???).
This logic must be flawed somewhere.

I found Angel of Despair to be good because he isn't very often needed and can be pitched to Ichorid, but in my game against Oath, he played maindeck Platinum Angel and Angel of Despair won me that game. Without him (or with Hypnotist or ANYTHING ELSE, I'd be fucked).

Anything else but that constellation really makes no sense to me.

[Marske]

@voltron00x,
I based my decklist on some of my initial findings and your article + report so it's easy to see why the decks are very similar I liked having the extra hand disruption instead of the 4th Ichorid but I think it's correct either way.

I think this list is very, very good - although, I'm curious, what deck are you bringing in the Angel against?

This list has performed extremely well during testing and has proven it's self in tournament play imo.  The angel in the board basically became needle number 3 (which I didn't own at the time) because it was a sanctioned event we had to swap something in and it was the only thing we had available. I suggested Boaz to bring it in as a dread return target against decks in which a 5/5 evasion Vindicate would come in handy, I have no idea against what he actually boarded it in.

That being said, the angel has shown to be of use against a large variety of matches and it is a 5/5 evasion vindicate which has the ability to take out just about anything (except stuff like leyline obviously) so you're bound to find a use for it. I think I would run a 4th chain or 3rd Needle in it's spot if I was to play this deck in a event soon.

[Adan]

The angel in the board basically became needle number 3 (which I didn't own at the time) because it was a sanctioned event we had to swap something in and it was the only thing we had available. I suggested Boaz to bring it in as a dread return target against decks in which a 5/5 evasion Vindicate would come in handy, I have no idea against what he actually boarded it in.

That being said, the angel has shown to be of use against a large variety of matches and it is a 5/5 evasion vindicate which has the ability to take out just about anything (except stuff like leyline obviously) so you're bound to find a use for it. I think I would run a 4th chain or 3rd Needle in it's spot if I was to play this deck in a event soon.

I think the Angel doesn't make sense in the SB. I play him maindeck and he is supposed to take out stuff you can't handle otherwise. But postboard, you should really be able to deal with the things you worry about with your SB-stuff and being GY-independant (because then you have Ancient Grudge, Chains, the Evoke-Critters etc.).
I often found myself boarding him out because I have other outs for certain problems.

[Marske]

@Adan,
Like I said it was the best available option we had, I didn't want to take out a Hypnotist (they we're great all day) and FKZ just steals you games. putting something else like a dredger or disruption in the SB is equally silly. I also mentioned I would run a 4th Chain or 3rd needle in that spot if I was to play the deck today. So basically it's not worth discussing it any further imo

[Adan]

@Adan,
Like I said it was the best available option we had, I didn't want to take out a Hypnotist (they we're great all day) and FKZ just steals you games. putting something else like a dredger or disruption in the SB is equally silly. I also mentioned I would run a 4th Chain or 3rd needle in that spot if I was to play the deck today. So basically it's not worth discussing it any further imo

Aye.

But why Hypnotist? I haven't heard any valid arguments for it except that people run it out of "personal preference" (the most irrational reason to play a card imo).
FKZ is just great, I often win Turn 2 or 3 with him. Hypnotist can't do that I guess.

[Doomsday]

Is the idea with Chewer in the side instead of Ancient Grudge that if they get an early Needle you won't be able to dredge enough to get Grudge in the graveyard and flash it back?

[Marske]

@Adan,
Although Meadbert and Wiley explained why Hypnotist is awesome in this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38158.0 I'll give a quick recap. When you're living the dream and hitting all 4 of your bridges within the first 20 cards you dredge along with FKZ and dread return + narco's and therapy's then sure FKZ is totally awesome.

Hypnotist + 2 other creatures = discards 6 which is usually their whole hand.

Hypnotist + 1 other creature means they discard 4 cards which is brutal if you consider that you may have hit something off a Therapy or two as well.

Flame Kin Zealot with 2 other creatures means you swing for 9 or something and Zealot with 1 other creature means you swing for 6 which is not nearly as good.

Like Meadbert said, Hypnotist is just awesome when you're not living the dream. He has become even more important and powerfull with people not being able to draw a shitton of cards to refill their hand, sure they have top + confidant but that's only 3 cards MAX they can draw (sure if they hit another draw spell or TV/Key or Yawg. Will with a nutz graveyard within those cards they can win / dig deeper) but most of the time they will just fail to recoup the loss of their hand. Giving you enough time to win, Ichorid has the fact that i will kill eventually on it's side.

@Doomsday,
I've tested Ancient Grudge and most of the times it did what it had to do... but then there were times when my opponent had leyline out and I had to nuke a artifact. the 2 mana it costs then is just huge and could mean you can't return Fatestitcher along with destroying Needle on Bazaar giving them time to grab another one. Also the fact that Chewer can take away opposing bridges and it dodges chalice and only costs R are just all gravy. The fact that you aren't relying on your graveyard to make your spell cheaper is also just great.

[voltron00x]

@Adan,
Like I said it was the best available option we had, I didn't want to take out a Hypnotist (they we're great all day) and FKZ just steals you games. putting something else like a dredger or disruption in the SB is equally silly. I also mentioned I would run a 4th Chain or 3rd needle in that spot if I was to play the deck today. So basically it's not worth discussing it any further imo

Aye.

But why Hypnotist? I haven't heard any valid arguments for it except that people run it out of "personal preference" (the most irrational reason to play a card imo).
FKZ is just great, I often win Turn 2 or 3 with him. Hypnotist can't do that I guess.

There's been quite a lot of discussion about Hypnotist, both here and on the SCG forums.  Just find Menendian's article on Ichorid and look in the forums.  I argued quite vigorously in favor of Hypnotist, because I've found that statistically speaking it is easy to DR Hypnotist on T2 and win, while it is much harder to win on T2 with FKZ.  In testing I found that this extra turn made a significant change in my win %.  Your mileage may vary, and that's fine - I always find it humorous that everything in Magic has to be defined in absolutes. There are benefits to both models.  I just prefer this one, and I've found locally that people who build their deck in this way (modeled after the Waterbury list) have had more success than those who haven't (who have gone the traditional route w/out Fatestitcher).   I went from 3 Hypnotist to 2 and 1 FKZ because occasionally I WAS dredging out the majority of my deck on T2 and for those games you do want to have the ability to "just win".

The last thing I have to figure out is the "fast mana" piece, specifically, should I cut one land for a Black Lotus?  It gives you a potential (though unlikely) T1 win and makes T2 much, much easier if you hit the Lotus before you drop Chalice on 0.  However, Lotus is worse against 5C stax and can be countered, so there are definitely drawbacks.

[Marske]

@voltron00x,
I've tested Lotus and LED (potentially awesome dumping all the dredgers in your hand turn 1) for the same reasons you stated, the times it actually did something for me were just awfully low compared against the times it got dredged away or countered / uncastable because of spheres. Imho it's just not worth it.

I btw agree that it's funny to see everything must be absolute in magic, the game has way to many variables for stuff like this to actually be absolute in anyway.

[nataz]

The last thing I have to figure out is the "fast mana" piece, specifically, should I cut one land for a Black Lotus?  It gives you a potential (though unlikely) T1 win and makes T2 much, much easier if you hit the Lotus before you drop Chalice on 0.  However, Lotus is worse against 5C stax and can be countered, so there are definitely drawbacks.

Since when is 5c stax an issue for ichorid? I'm still firmly on the side of fast mana, but like you said YMMV. On the other hand, with the loss of TFK in the format, hypno becomes so much better. There really aren't that many card advantage engines being played right now that you care about. With D.C. and card selection being all the rage, hypnotist is really good. 

[Adan]

Since when is 5c stax an issue for ichorid?

Never has been, never will be. MUD outclasses 5color Stax in view of the Ichorid matchup. 5color Stax doesn't play a shitload of Spheres that shutdown Therapies and Returns, they don't play Ravagers or Triskelion or Karn which are really bad for Ichorid and it lacks the acceleration (Metalworker) to blow them out.

I'm still firmly on the side of fast mana, but like you said YMMV. On the other hand, with the loss of TFK in the format, hypno becomes so much better. There really aren't that many card advantage engines being played right now that you care about. With D.C. and card selection being all the rage, hypnotist is really good. 

That's exactly what I'm NOT sure about:

Card selection (Sensei's Divining Top) and additional carddraw (Dark Confidant) is a strong cardraw engine that you normally can't attack with ichorid (except you are playing Darkblasts and Angel of Despair maindeck like me, but that's very situational as you have to look whether you have Bridges or a Leyline out).

It allows the opponent to topdeck very well and this is why I'm in doubt if Hypnotist is really that good.

On the other side, Dark Confidant pings them, which makes FKZ better...

[Marske]

@Adan,
Sensei's top + Dark confidant is hardly a draw engine if you only give it 1-2 turns, it's very good at drawing a shitton of cards over massive amounts of turns... After you Hypno away their entire hand you usually pass the turn then on your next turn you win with zombie / ichorid / additional dredgers taking out anything they have in their hand. There usually isn't any way for them to get back into it if they only get 3 cards (1 confidant, 1 draw, 1 top) that's hardly better then playing an ancestral recall in hopes of hitting the goods. Like I said before in this thread, sure they can make it once or twice but overall you're just going to win.

[nataz]

@voltron00x,
I've tested Lotus and LED (potentially awesome dumping all the dredgers in your hand turn 1) for the same reasons you stated, the times it actually did something for me were just awfully low compared against the times it got dredged away or countered / uncastable because of spheres. Imho it's just not worth it.

But getting dredged away doesn't matter. The idea was to replace lands with fast mana allowing for faster fatesticher activations as a primary, and cabal therp/random as a secondary turn1. Dredge a fast mana, dredge a land, nothing really changed unless you are playing that terrible dredge land. The sphere issue for me is also a non-issue considering our win % against stax decks.

That just leaves counters on turn 1 mana, which seems like a bad play most of the time. It gets more likely if they know you are on dredge, but they still have to weigh options of countering dread return/cabal therp.

plus, yea what marske said about draw engines. TFK was dangerous because it gave them 3 cards at instant speed for a quick hand refill and could chain into everything else mentioned. DC gives one a turn, and does dmg (non-trivial when dealing with ichorid). Top is really slow as well at actually putting X cards in hand.
 

[A_Outcast]

has anyone considered running an eternal witness so you can dread return her, bring back lotus, and go double/tripple unearth?  not sure if anyone else has considered it before.

[nataz]

I love eternal witness. I ran it at the last waterbury with LED Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox. I had at least a couple turn 1 wins with it, as well as an increased turn 2 win %.

[Marske]

@Nataz,

But getting dredged away doesn't matter. The idea was to replace lands with fast mana allowing for faster fatesticher activations as a primary, and cabal therp/random as a secondary turn1. Dredge a fast mana, dredge a land, nothing really changed unless you are playing that terrible dredge land. The sphere issue for me is also a non-issue considering our win % against stax decks.

Sure, but I would play land over lotus (Makes your own chalice worse) suffers from Null rod, counters, etc any day of the week. The bonus you have of potentially being broken just doesn't add up to the stability issues you're creating. Don't forget that unless you're running Full moxen, Lotus, LED the chances of you seeing that 1 piece of fast(er) mana in your deck at the right point (you're starting hand including 2 stitchers a bazaar and dredgers) is extremely situational at best.

on Eternal Witness,
If you're dread returning anything it should A) Win on the spot (FKZ) B) Completely disable the opponent (Hypno) C) Solve a problem (Angel, Realm, Ancestor)

Eternal Witness does nothing but take something you dredged away and put it into your hand (the worst place to have something in a graveyard dependent deck)

[BruiZar]

I disagree. If you have lotus in your opening hand, you open with lotus first. You will not have revealed you are playing ichorid yet. Not everyone counters lotus every time its being played. After you drop lotus you drop chalice, so it doesnt make your chalice worst. Chalice becomes worst when your opponent plays first, not when you play 0 mana artifacts yourself, especially since you wont be drawing cards anyway. This problem you portray only occurs with Eternal Witness. Sharuum, the Hegemon circumvents it by putting it into play instead.

[BruiZar]

The role Eternal Witness would play is the same as the role Cephalid Sage would play.

[Marske]

@Bruizar,
Drawing lotus is really bad if you plan on opening with Chalice and Yes sometimes you do want to just draw a card instead of dredging... All I'm saying is that most of the time the cards going to be a dead one.

On Eternal witness / Sage
You don't see me advocating Sage (or Kelpie) for that matter... Because I truly believe them to be suboptimal in a more control like Dredge list (something you are when playing Chalice, unmask, Hypnotist) It's right at home in "turbo Dredge" that just wants to dredge dredge dredge and dredge some more. A list like that would like to run Lotus, Led, Breakthrough, Study and stuff like sage to just "combo" as quickly as possible.

There are differences to how you focus your dredge list, you can go the more controlling route or the more explosive route whichwill require a very different setup.

PS.
TMD has a edit button for your posts... no need to double post.

[Adan]

On Eternal witness / Sage
You don't see me advocating Sage (or Kelpie) for that matter... Because I truly believe them to be suboptimal in a more control like Dredge list (something you are when playing Chalice, unmask, Hypnotist) It's right at home in "turbo Dredge" that just wants to dredge dredge dredge and dredge some more. A list like that would like to run Lotus, Led, Breakthrough, Study and stuff like sage to just "combo" as quickly as possible.

No matter which build you play, they are both win-more and in consequence dead. But you really shouldn't play the build with Breakthrough and Study. (Because essentially, there are 2 builds: the one that loses to Spheres and Chalice and the one that doesn't) 

FYI, this is the Top8 from the small tournament where I 6-0-1'd with Ichorid (3-0-1 in the swiss, followed by Top8 playoffs. Don't ask me why we played Top8 with 15 ppl, but I head my fun and experiences): http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1102

[FadeToBlack]

The role Eternal Witness would play is the same as the role Cephalid Sage would play.

Not quite. Witness can be getting back a Bazaar to function like a Sage, but flexible in most other ways, with the ability to get back an Unmask, Chalice, Darkblast/Contagion, bounce spell...etc.

I've played with a lot of different "win" conditions, from FKZ to Hypnotist, Ancestor's Chosen to Angel of Despair, Sundering Titan, Witness, and other dumb guys. For starters, most of the games you win have nothing to do with Dread Returning a specific target, so occupying more than 2 slots with targets seems absurd to me, even for "diversity" applications. As you can see by the aforementioned choices, there are really 3 groups (I think..): Win now, "Win" now, and flexibility. The Win now, basically referring to FKZ or Sutured Ghoul, are the worst imo, as they are often the most resource dependent. As meadbert will point out, your basically living the dream when your winning with these guys already, making them much more situational. They also tend to occupy more deck slots (want to run multiple FKZ, Cephalid Sage with them, etc). The "Win" now guys are my personal choice (Titan, Razer, Hypnotist, etc) as they put you in a situation almost as good as the Win now, in that your opponent has a one turn window to get extremely lucky (though I recognize that there is those possibilities in Vintage) or else its over, while being much less resource dependent. The flexible guys are just that, not quite featuring the same raw power as the other two groups but randomly doing nice things.

I will say though, I find it slightly obnoxious that these threads keep coming up with the two camps of "I've only ever played with FKZ so it must be the best" and "I read meadberts article and stand by it without ever testing the waters myself" going to war over such a menial point of Dredge.

[Adan]

The Win now, basically referring to FKZ or Sutured Ghoul, are the worst imo, as they are often the most resource dependent.

Why? You need 3 creatures, DR and the target. And you only need 2 Bridges. That should be possible when you are dredging 15-18 cards per turn and you will most likely win on Turn 3.

As meadbert will point out, your basically living the dream when your winning with these guys already, making them much more situational.

And why is it a dream to have at least 2 Bridges and the other stuff? I mean, if I won't win immediately, I simply don't DR. Instead, I'd perforate his hand with multiple Therapies. That's exactly the same thing that Hypnotist does/would do (except that he will hit the irrelevant chaff as well).

They also tend to occupy more deck slots (want to run multiple FKZ, Cephalid Sage with them, etc).

Uhm no? marske's build: 3 Return, 2 Hypnos, 1 FKZ. My build: 3 Dread Return, 2 FKZ, 1 Angel of Despair. We both run 3 DR and 3 targets, the only difference is that I'll be one or 2 turns faster than with marske's build.

The "Win" now guys are my personal choice (Titan, Razer, Hypnotist, etc) as they put you in a situation almost as good as the Win now, in that your opponent has a one turn window to get extremely lucky (though I recognize that there is those possibilities in Vintage) or else its over, while being much less resource dependent. The flexible guys are just that, not quite featuring the same raw power as the other two groups but randomly doing nice things.

Random nice things =/= win immediately.

Seriously, having at least 2 Bridges is really not utopic or something. I still don't see why you should ever give the opponent one additional turn, especially in a format where topdecking can fuck you like in non other format.
Notice how Dread Return for Hypnotist does shit against the guys who will then just Mystical/Vampiric for Y.Will and then blow you out of the water because you just can't do anything useful to prevent him drawing that card. Solution: Win immediately!

True story!