[Deck] "Hatching Paint", another blue engine

[beder]

What about the UW Atog that eats Enchantments for +1/+1 and discard a card for +1/+1.

If you use Replensh you get 2 or 3 Hatching plans into play and with the Tog that means 9 extra cards in hand and allot of +1/+1.

Together with Seal and Remora and maybe Counterbalance Top, you can have a very nice deck I think.

This are just some thoughts and not tested yet.

Greetz Arjan

I tried to build an "enchantment focussed" version of this build but didn't succeed in having something consistent/efficent (well, to be honnest, I didn't succeed in respecting the 60 cards limitation, was more like 70 or 75 )
Perhaps there is a way to build such a deck but I didn't find it...

I have to say that I don't undersand the "egg thing", may be an english expression that I miss...

I guess it refers to Hatching Plans, since eggs are usually hatched  

I tested a slightly modified version yesterday against ANT, and was really impressed how good the card interaction was. I was frequently able to Abjure a Hatching Plans or a Remora, and even Perilous Research without "the eggs" was nice. Having Mystic Remora onlilne and being able to keep it until one blue mana open left and still being able to counter (instead of the 2 mana you need when playing with Drains) was also very good.
So my feeling was that the core of the deck, as you nicely put it in your posting, seems to be solid.

Maybe some Spell Pierce could be added to increase the amount of counterspells. It has the same synergy with Remora as Abjure has, so it could be quite nice.

I would further like to know your opinion on Read the Runes. I played one copy (plus a Mana Vault) and always loved it.

The line of play you describe with remora is effectively a very interesting one with this deck. For instance : first turn island+off color mox => play remora. Next turn you pay remora with the mox and keep blue open to be able to play abjure if necessary. This is pretty frequent and it helps a lot controlling during first turns.

Then, I totally agree with your conclusion reguarding perillous research: it works really well even if not combined with hatching. Given that almost all the cards have a very low CC (1 or 2), the deck does not need much mana to operate. As a consequence, perillous research is a nice way to recycle extra land or mana.
Remark : this also has to be related to the difficulty this deck may have when facing stacks and its permanent destruction.

When it comes to read the runes, I tried it but finally removed it. I noticed that I didn't needed it in order to destroy hatching. I am more concerned about having a blue permanent on board than having access to a way to sacrifice hatching; in my testing, that was never a pb (8 cards + 4 potential tutors for abjure).

ManaVault is a card that I tried a lot. Right now, I don't know if this is necessary or not. In the Ubg build, it only shines when it comes to yawgmoth or tinker. In the Ubr build, i would say that it is more interesting in order to activate the grindstone. Don't know...

Finally, concerning spell spierce, I like it. But I don't know if it would be better than any other cards already in the build.

[Tobi]

Auratog and Phantatog are certainly interesting when you need outlets for "the eggs". Problem is, they are not good on their own.

Maybe one could try to build a UW build with more enchantments, parfait-like.


Read the Runes: I like the interaction between RtR and Mana Vault and Crypt. I tested it some time back in a Dragon build, and even if you were not comboing it was very nice. Being able to sac (multiple) "the eggs" is an additional bonus in this deck. Maybe we could try to replace one Perilous Research with RtR.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Matchups
- Tezz :
- Storm :
- Fish :
- Stacks:
- Oath:

Granted it depends how you build it, but Storm is a complete bye, Tezzeret is very favorable (the real reason to pick this up besides fun factor) and Stax I found to be very reasonable if you have a decent SB and run at least two commandeers.  The real problem is that it has trouble stopping early cards that don't need acceleration (oath) or creatures.

Fish can be sideboarded for, but now that Oath is even stronger and more popular, I really see this as a weak choice.  That doesn't mean it isn't powerful, or right for a given metagame, just that it can't compete across the board.

That and in spite of its power, the draw engine can get tangled.  If anything, less room in the list should be devoted to stuff like enchant-eating-tog and more room for smoothers like sensei's top and thirst for knowledge.

[meadbert]

I have to say that I don't undersand the "egg thing", may be an english expression that I miss...

Chromatic Star and Chromatic Sphere or somewhat similar to Darkwater Egg and all of the other Eggs.  Egg is still probably the wrong word.

[beder]

Matchups
- Tezz :
- Storm :
- Fish :
- Stacks:
- Oath:

Granted it depends how you build it, but Storm is a complete bye, Tezzeret is very favorable (the real reason to pick this up besides fun factor) and Stax I found to be very reasonable if you have a decent SB and run at least two commandeers.  The real problem is that it has trouble stopping early cards that don't need acceleration (oath) or creatures.

Fish can be sideboarded for, but now that Oath is even stronger and more popular, I really see this as a weak choice.  That doesn't mean it isn't powerful, or right for a given metagame, just that it can't compete across the board.

That and in spite of its power, the draw engine can get tangled.  If anything, less room in the list should be devoted to stuff like enchant-eating-tog and more room for smoothers like sensei's top and thirst for knowledge.

Perhaps should I test again against oath, cause my latest testings were pretty favorable (with the Ubg build). I had good results against the latest Iona oath; if my memory is correct, I played 3 2/3 games and won 2 of them. But again, I would need to test against good oath players , I don't know if the guys I tested against were.
Against oath, game 2 and 3, I removed 3 tarmos and 1 perillous research (or mystic remora, it depends if I start g2 or not) for 2 spellsnare + 1 diabolic edict + 1 trygon predator.

Only one objetive : prevent the first oath from being successfullly cast. After that, the draw engine starts and it becomes really difficult for oath to win the next counter war.

[EDIT] Tip : against oath, even if one oath is on board, keep in mind that perillous research can sometimes win you 1 turn (sacrificing the token created). Not always working for sure (sometimes there is several tokens, sometimes several forbiddens), but this won me one game recently.

Remark: on the opposite, my stacks testing were difficult. Right now, I even think about adding one trygon predator main in place of one tarmo.

FYI, here is the side I use right now :

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Yixlid Jailer

1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Trygon Predator
2 Oxidize

2 Spell Snare

1 Sower of Temptation
1 Darkblast
1 Diabolic Edict

[beder]

Matchups
- Tezz :
- Storm :
- Fish :
- Stacks:
- Oath:

Granted it depends how you build it, but Storm is a complete bye, Tezzeret is very favorable (the real reason to pick this up besides fun factor) and Stax I found to be very reasonable if you have a decent SB and run at least two commandeers.  The real problem is that it has trouble stopping early cards that don't need acceleration (oath) or creatures.

Fish can be sideboarded for, but now that Oath is even stronger and more popular, I really see this as a weak choice.  That doesn't mean it isn't powerful, or right for a given metagame, just that it can't compete across the board.

That and in spite of its power, the draw engine can get tangled.  If anything, less room in the list should be devoted to stuff like enchant-eating-tog and more room for smoothers like sensei's top and thirst for knowledge.

Taking the advices for more smoothers, I made a few changes and built a Ub version of this build.

Here it is :
// Lands
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Island
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

    1 Trinket Mage

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring

    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault
    1 Sensei's Divining Top

    1 Engineered Explosives

    4 Mystic Remora
    4 Abjure
    4 Force of Will
    4 Hatching Plans
    3 Perilous Research

    1 Misdirection

    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Time Walk
    1 Tinker
    1 Hurkyl's Recall

    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Here are the modifications :

-3 tarmos, -1 perillous research => +1trinket, +1 sensei, +1 engeenred explosive, +1 hurkylls

I lose the aggro mode but as said, the deck is smoother.

- Sensei is just excellent, helping finding pieces of the mini combos.
- Engeenered is a nice out for many situations. Then, when set at 2, which is the classical number, it destroys hatching.
- Trinket finds the mini tool kit, voltaic and is a blue permanent.
- The mana base is really solid.

Updated matchup :


This new build has :
 - a better matchup against tezz : smoother + trinket is good
 - a clearly better matchup against stax : hurkylls and engeenred helps a lot
 - a better matchup against oath : did some pretty rough testing against iona oath and results were really even. Perillous research is brilliant and save lots of turns...
 - a worst matchup against aggro (no more tarmo, null rod is a bigger liability)

[unixtreme]

Auratog and Phantatog are certainly interesting when you need outlets for "the eggs". Problem is, they are not good on their own.

The problem with Hatching Plans is that it's not good on it's own either, and if you make a deck fully dependant on this card... Well its an attractive idea but in my humble opinion it will result in an unstable build that only works under certain conditions, I'd trade some hatching plans for extra flexibility. Maybe I'm wrong but including this high number of cards that rely on anothers to work could be painful.

Hatching plans -> doens't do anything by itself
Abjure -> same that hatching plans but has the handicap of the sac permanent thing, if you dont have hatching it could result in a loss of a valuable permanent in order to counter a vital spel, I'd switch them for REB/Pyros.
Perilous Research -> again doesn't do anything by itself, it can be a nice answer to an strip effect but nothing more.

As I see it these 3 cards are too circumstancial and use a high amount of slots on the deck, to exploit Hatching Plans you'd need spend many slots in cards that do something and help you to sac permanents, so Hatching Plans will not be a dead card but this could make you include other cards that result in a dead card without a permanent to sac or even with an unworthy cost that leads in a permanent disadvantage in some matchups.

My 2 cents

[meadbert]

Technically no card with a casting cost does anything by itself.  I built a deck with Hatching Plans, 4x Read the Runes, 4x Perilous Research and 8x REB/Pyroblast.  This left 16 cards that Hatching Plans interacts with.  Finding one of those 16 is no harder than finding a blue mana source with which to cast Hatching Plans, so while what you say is technically true it could be applied to many cards.
Also there is one matchup where Hatching Plans is golden on its own and that is Stax.

[the boogie man]

I kind of agree that hatching plans does not do much on its own. And I think that finding a blue source != hatching plans + sac outlet. It still seems like it's huge card advantage, though. What about running 2-3? That would reduce the number of times you draw multiple. And I don't really like abjure at all. reb seems way better, coupled with all your other permission.

[beder]

I don't really know how to explain how good is abjure...
I totally understand that it may look like too conditionnal but with :
- 9 blue permanent
- 5 pitch counter

... or you can use abjure and it is good, or you pitch it.

For sure, it is sometimes a dead card, but it is also very often a huge bomb. Especially cause with hatching, the draw 3 cannot be countered...

But I already explained that. I think one has to play with it to beleive in it

[meadbert]

That is the issue.  Letting Hatching Plans resolve means your opponent now has 4 uncounterable Ancestral Recalls that also counter a card.  That is very scary.  I have not tested Beder's list, but in the lists I have tested you always counter Hatching Plans.

[CorwinB]

That is the issue.  Letting Hatching Plans resolve means your opponent now has 4 uncounterable Ancestral Recalls that also counter a card.  That is very scary.  I have not tested Beder's list, but in the lists I have tested you always counter Hatching Plans.

Well, technically, people always try to counter/steal Ancestral too. I don't think anyone would argue that's reason enough not to run it.

[beder]

That is the issue.  Letting Hatching Plans resolve means your opponent now has 4 uncounterable Ancestral Recalls that also counter a card.  That is very scary.  I have not tested Beder's list, but in the lists I have tested you always counter Hatching Plans.

Well, technically, people always try to counter/steal Ancestral too. I don't think anyone would argue that's reason enough not to run it.

Don't want to answer in place of meadbert but I guess his remark was more like "given that when hatching is on board, the player has 4 uncouterable ancestrall, this is a good idea to counter hatching when playing against this deck". I don't think it meant that hatching or abjure didn't have to be ran.

[TheJesus]

This draw engine seems really good.  I was wondering about win conditions. It seems like a slower stronger combo could be used if not something classic like psychatog.

Would any of the Words of X cards be good?

Words of Wilding  2G
Enchantment
1: The next time you would draw a card this turn, put a 2/2 green Bear creature token onto the battlefield instead.

Words of Waste  2B
Enchantment
1: The next time you would draw a card this turn, each opponent discards a card instead.
   
Words of War 2R
Enchantment
1: The next time you would draw a card this turn, Words of War deals 2 damage to target creature or player instead.

Words of Wind  2B
Enchantment
1: The next time you would draw a card this turn, each player returns a permanent he or she controls to its owner's hand instead.

Words of Worship  2W
Enchantment
1: The next time you would draw a card this turn, you gain 5 life instead.

There is also Solitary Confinement to give you tons of time to find a combo piece.
2W
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Solitary Confinement unless you discard a card.
Skip your draw step.
You have shroud. (You can't be the target of spells or abilities.)
Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you.

[FAVO!!!!1]

Never mind, what I originally wrote does not apply to the thread... If someone can, please delete this post. Greatly appreciated and sorry for the inconvience.

[meadbert]

Slight Necro:
What about Ancestral Knowledge?

I first discovered this card by reading an article by Menendian a while ago.  I agreed with him that it was an undervalued card at the time, but I really could not find a great home for it.  If there is a great home for it, this is it since it helps complete the Painter/Grindstone combo and combos itself with both Abjure and Perilous Research.  Is this an improvement?  If so, is that enough to make this deck viable?

[beder]

Slight Necro:
What about Ancestral Knowledge?

I first discovered this card by reading an article by Menendian a while ago.  I agreed with him that it was an undervalued card at the time, but I really could not find a great home for it.  If there is a great home for it, this is it since it helps complete the Painter/Grindstone combo and combos itself with both Abjure and Perilous Research.  Is this an improvement?  If so, is that enough to make this deck viable?

Well, I never tested it. But I am not sure it would improve this deck. Indeed, the main weakness of this deck is that it has one weak turn, the turn when you set up your engine (or defense). This is the turn where you are vulnerable and I don't feel like this card helps adressing that problem. That's why remora helped a lot in the "non painter/stone variant of this deck".