Single Card Discussion (Kozilek, Butcher of Truth)

[madmanmike25]

From MTG Salvation:

Kozilek, Butcher of Truth    
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi  
When you cast Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, draw four cards.
Annihilator 4 (Whenever this creature attacks, defending player sacrifices four permanents.)
When Kozilek is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
12/12

If this card is real it has some potential to have an impact in Vintage...  Let's examine some of the possible applications in no particular order:

1.)  Tinker- NOPE!
2.)  Mana Drain- NOT LIKELY
3.)  Metalworker- Not so much.  At a 10cc he is pretty damn pricey.   As a Stax player I want this guy in MUD but I'm also a realist.  I wouldn't even maindeck Titan because he costs 8.  NOT LIKELY
4.)  Welder+Bazaar-  NOPE!
5.)  Copper Gnomes- NOPE!
6.)  Show and Tell- Although you don't get to draw, still seems nice
7.)  Oath-  No CiTP but still seems worth consideration.  I know it let's them sack their Orchard Tokens, but 2 attacks and gg?  Not the best Oath creature obv, but it might be tested.
8.)  Eye of Ugin-  Makes Kozilek cost 8.  Not sure if Eye is worth it just yet, I'll update this as more prospects are spoiled.  Only problem is the Legendary factor, meaning 8 is as low as it will go.  My guess is no for now.  7 non-shop mana for a creature tutor is too costly.

So I ask this;  What deck do you think this guy has the most (if any) potential in?

Btw, this card gives your deck immunity to Painter/Grindstone not that it matters much.

I think if the "Annihilator" ability is given to more castable creatures we may very well may see the end of Smokestack.....or watch that card/decktype dominate the format.  I'm all for Aggro and Prison hybrids.

EDIT:  Thanks, I got carried away.  Just read the NON ARTIFACT part.  This obviously changes things.

[GrandpaBelcher]

It's not an artifact.  Not a Tinker target.  Not castable by Workshop mana.

[serracollector]

Well, with the unrestriction of Grim monolith and voltaic key....it MIGHT be a possibilty in a MUDish style deck something along the lines of

2-4 eldrazi dude
4 grim
4 key
1 time vault
Restricted mana makers(moxes etc)
4 metal worker
4 Workshop/4 ancient tomb

then I spose you could either splash black for dark/cabal rituals, or red for rite of flame/rituals, and ofc tutors/y.will.

OFC confidant would not be a good choice here tho, so would need some kind of other draw.

But, I am more interested in the fact that he is COLORLESS not an artifact (hurkyll's recall this ) and the annihilator ability.  Imagine if they make a 1/1 for 1-3 colorless with annihilator 1 or 2.  Thats a first turn lock piece like no other. It would be run in almost EVERY deck.  Balance on a stick is good I hear.

[Killane]

But, I am more interested in the fact that he is COLORLESS not an artifact (hurkyll's recall this ) and the annihilator ability.  Imagine if they make a 1/1 for 1-3 colorless with annihilator 1 or 2.  Thats a first turn lock piece like no other. It would be run in almost EVERY deck.  Balance on a stick is good I hear.

given how absurdly broken this woudl be, I somehow doubt it will see print. My guess is this guy is par for thr course when it comes to Eldrazi, and though I don't expect it, I wouldn't be overly surprised if he's one of the smaller/cheeper ones.

[Cyberpunker]

Imagine if they make a 1/1 for 1-3 colorless with annihilator 1 or 2.  Thats a first turn lock piece like no other. It would be run in almost EVERY deck.  Balance on a stick is good I hear.

Funny thing, I heard a rumor here in Japan that there was a cheaper Annihilator 1/1 creature. Maybe costing 2-3 but maybe even 1 (nuts)...

[serracollector]

If that is true the meta will totally change. Colorless cards that make your opponent sac perms has already been shown powerful thru the likes of smokestack

[zeus-online]

The only place i think this guy might be playable is in extended urzatron decks, and even then it's not very likely given that noone plays urzatron in extended.

I think he's garbage. You have to pay 10 mana to get the cards, annihilator is fine...if he lives for a full turn. On the other hand, titan gives a huuuuge impact when he hits the board and he's alot easier to get into play.

I'll be thrilled if he actually sees play though, he's got two of my favorit abilities on the card type i like the least (except for tribal and planeswalker i guess) card draw and mana denial in 1 card sounds good.

[kkoie]

What about running him in Oath?  I know he's a turn slow, but then so is Terastodon and Progenitus.

[serracollector]

the problem with oath is that he doesnt draw when he comes into play, and Ion or Don are lock components that are better.

[Nydaeli]

He's a Legend, so he could conceivably be a target for Loyal Retainers in some kind of Survival list.  Not that Survival is a Vintage deck or anything, and even if it were, Iona's still better.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

This card is terrible for Vintage. Elephant man blows up almost as many permanents and doesn't make you sit on your ass for a turn waiting for it to happen. They won't print any acceleration powerful enough to cast this guy fast enough in Vintage because then it destroys all the other formats. As an artifact I could certainly see him in shop decks, but he isn't one so he won't be.

As for small Eldrazi creatures in general, I find that highly unlikely. Aside from the fact that Eldrazi seem to be massive beings there is also Eye of Ugin. The fact that it costs 7 mana to tutor for a colorless creature should be a pretty big hint that it is meant to tutor some big ass cards. That and I don't think they could be stupid enough to print a - mana creature with Annihilator. Aside from not making the least bit of sense having a 1/1 being able to "annihilate" things, it would also be ridiculously overpowered. At the very most I could see something like a totem that originally costs maybe - but then has an activation cost to become a creature with Annihilator until end of turn.

I'd love to be proven wrong though, there is nothing like swinging with a beefy mofo that basically makes your opponents sacrifice their entire board.

[TheBrassMan]

It's cute that you draw 4 cards even if Kozilek gets countered.  It's not as cute that you lose anyway.

[sorcutt]

This guy will beat bitches up in my EDH Rofellos deck.

But seriously, anything that costs 6 mana or more in Vintage needs to say "win target game" or get reallllly close.

Examples:

Yagmoth's Bargain: win game
Mind's Desire: win game unless you have garbage luck

Just about every other card that costs 6+ mana can either be cheated into play somehow in Vintage.

[zimagic]

Imagine if they make a 1/1 for 1-3 colorless with annihilator 1 or 2.  Thats a first turn lock piece like no other. It would be run in almost EVERY deck.  Balance on a stick is good I hear.

Funny thing, I heard a rumor here in Japan that there was a cheaper Annihilator 1/1 creature. Maybe costing 2-3 but maybe even 1 (nuts)...

I've heard the same thing for  , creature type "Brood" so not something the Eye or the rumoured Eldrazi Temple would help with in formats like standard but a 1/1, Annihilator 1 for 4 would be playable in a lot of formats considering that it can realistically come down on turn 3 in slow formats and turns 1-2 in Eternal. No haste 4cmc & 1/1 may just keep it unplayable outside of singletons in Stax

[RecklessEmbermage]

Good target for shallow grave.


EDIT: No, it's not.

[Beralt]

Jhoira of the Ghitu is another way to get it out a bit quicker, but I don't think it's very viable for Vintage.  But the upside on suspending Kozilek is that it will have haste so if hits the board it need to be dealt with then and there or it's smokestacking the opponent big time - and it does draw it's cards.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The last ability may actually be the most relevant.  This guy "beats" Painter just as well as Gaea's Blessing.  "Brown" Stax would rather run this guy than Blessing if their meta is Paint infested.

[Cyberpunker]

The last ability may actually be the most relevant.  This guy "beats" Painter just as well as Gaea's Blessing.  "Brown" Stax would rather run this guy than Blessing if their meta is Paint infested.

Haha paint infested.  

Honestly though, I wish Painter and Brainfreeze did not have an overwhelming weakness to Gaea's Blessing. Its just retarded that 1 random s/b or maindeck card in Oath can just own you.

[Killane]

The last ability may actually be the most relevant.  This guy "beats" Painter just as well as Gaea's Blessing.  "Brown" Stax would rather run this guy than Blessing if their meta is Paint infested.

Haha paint infested.  

Honestly though, I wish Painter and Brainfreeze did not have an overwhelming weakness to Gaea's Blessing. Its just retarded that 1 random s/b or maindeck card in Oath can just own you.

Just run maindeck leylines. No GY= no proglem, and it's not like running GY hate in Vintage is a bad thing *cough* ichorid *cough* /yawgWill * cough*

[zimagic]

Good target for shallow grave.


EDIT: No, it's not.

Yes it is. The reshuffle ability is a "When" not an "If it would" so it will hit the GY and only then the shuffle effect triggers, goes on the stack at which point you Shallow Grave it. You don't draw any cards though so it's not all win. Entomb -> Shallow Grave would do it.

The last ability may actually be the most relevant.  This guy "beats" Painter just as well as Gaea's Blessing.  "Brown" Stax would rather run this guy than Blessing if their meta is Paint infested.

Also works with Painter if you don't have may other creatures, just SG it before the next Grindstone trigger resolves and the painter player is essentially just tutoring up your win con for you.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Good target for shallow grave.


EDIT: No, it's not.

Yes it is. The reshuffle ability is a "When" not an "If it would" so it will hit the GY and only then the shuffle effect triggers, goes on the stack at which point you Shallow Grave it. You don't draw any cards though so it's not all win. Entomb -> Shallow Grave would do it.

It is possible, but I would not run reanimator targets that restricted my lines of play to such a degree. Turn one entomb, turn two shallow grave is not possible, if the reanimate spell gets countered, you just got two-for-oned (atleast) etc.

When adding that you may want to put other cards in your graveyard, flashback therapies and so on, there is not much left of the appeal, really.

EDIT: Cleaned up the post. Quoting was messy.

[DubDub]

Also works with Painter if you don't have may other creatures, just SG it before the next Grindstone trigger resolves and the painter player is essentially just tutoring up your win con for you.

If they activate Grindstone before your combat step on your turn and they're within range of dying to Kozilek itself... ('exile ~ at the beginning of the end step'?)

Also, wanted to note that a second Eldrazi has been spoiled:
Pathrazer of Ulmalog - 11
Annihilator 3
~ can't be blocked except by 3 or more creatures.
9/9

Not quite as good as Kozilek, but 1) doesn't have any anti-reanimation clause, and 2) isn't Legendary.

[Killane]

Also works with Painter if you don't have may other creatures, just SG it before the next Grindstone trigger resolves and the painter player is essentially just tutoring up your win con for you.

If they activate Grindstone before your combat step on your turn and they're within range of dying to Kozilek itself... ('exile ~ at the beginning of the end step'?)

Also, wanted to note that a second Eldrazi has been spoiled:
Pathrazer of Ulmalog - 11
Annihilator 3
~ can't be blocked except by 3 or more creatures.
9/9

Not quite as good as Kozilek, but 1) doesn't have any anti-reanimation clause, and 2) isn't Legendary.

so when you say not quite as good, you actually mean better in every possibly relevant way, since Kozilek is really only better if hardcast which isn't going to happen.

[AmbivalentDuck]

so when you say not quite as good, you actually mean better in every possibly relevant way, since Kozilek is really only better if hardcast which isn't going to happen.

Not true.  Protecting you from a fatal grinding is, like I said, THE most relevant ability on the card.  Gaea's Blessing is terrible in a deck without access to green.

Annihilator isn't relevant in vintage unless they ban Terastodon or Shallow Grave makes a resurgence.

[Killane]

so when you say not quite as good, you actually mean better in every possibly relevant way, since Kozilek is really only better if hardcast which isn't going to happen.

Not true.  Protecting you from a fatal grinding is, like I said, THE most relevant ability on the card.  Gaea's Blessing is terrible in a deck without access to green.

Annihilator isn't relevant in vintage unless they ban Terastodon or Shallow Grave makes a resurgence.

Ok, I see your point re: blessing. Annihilator could certainly be relevant under some circumstances, but I agree that genrally the Elephant woudl be a better choice in 99% of cases.