Horde of Notions Control

[Killane]

My local shop runs a weekly EDH on Saturdays after the weekly Eternal event, and I'm thinking of getting into it. The format is 1-on-1 about 95% of the time, but I want something that might work in multiplayer as well as I really don;t have time to maintain multiple EDH decks on top of everything else.

Reading about the format it seems to me that control is the way to go. Horde of Notions offers an efficient kill with General damage combined with a powerful recursive ability that seems ripe for abuse. Here's what I've come up with:

Horde of Notions (General)

Mana (34)
Basic Land Cycle (5)
Dual Land Cycle (10)
Fetchland Cycle (10)

City of Brass/Reflecting Pool
Bant Tri Land
Esper Tri Land
Murmuring Bosk

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Tolarian Academy
Academy Ruins
Strip Mine

Mana Fixing (7)
Coalition Relic C
Fist of Suns C
Sol Ring C
Solemn Simulacrum C
Darksteel Ingot C
Expedition Map C
Crucible of Worlds C

Sweepers (8)
Wrath of God WW
Day of Judgment WW
Akroma’s Vengeance WW
All is Dust C
Damnation BB
Pernicious Deed BG
Insurrection RRR
Engineered Explosives C

Spot Removal (10)
Legacy Weapon C
Capsize UU
Condemn W
Cradle Swap W
Nameless Inversion B
Vindicate WB
Maelstrom Pulse BG
Maze of Ith C
Prision Term WW
Ajani Vengeant RW

Tutor (5)
Demonic Tutor  B
Vampiric Tutor B
Mystical Tutor U
Enlightened Tutor W
Diabolic Tutor B

Permission (12)
Counterspell UU
Spell Burst U
Dismiss 2UU
Rewind 2UU
Undermine UUB
Mindbreak Trap 3UU
Force of Will 3UU
Cryptic Command 1UUU
Spelljack 3UUU
Dissipate 1UU
Declaration of Naught UU
Mindslaver C

Creatures (12)
Mulldrifter U
Shreikmaw B
Acidic Slime GG
Venser, Shaper Savant UU
Terastodon GG
Eternal Witness GG
Timbermare
Guile
Tornado Elemental
Aethersnipe
Chameleon Colossus
Benthicore

Utility (11)
Regrowth G
Sensei’s Divining Top C
Conspiracy BB
Goblin Bombardment R
Skullclamp C
Lightning Greaves C
Necromancy B
Beacon of Immortality W
Grab the Reins R
Phyrexian Arena BB
Necropotence BBB

The rules at the shop also allow for an optional 10 card sideboard as per the standard EDH sideboard variant.

Sideboard (10)
Runed Halo (generic singlewincon.dec)
Ego Erasure (vs. Slivers)
Energy Flux (vs. Sharrum)
Teferi’s Moat (vs. any mono)
Iona, Sheila of Emeria (vs. any Mono)
Cloudthresher  (tokens.dec)
Ingot Chewer (Sharrum)
Engineered Plague (tribal.dec)
Bitterblossom (anything a Forcefield would be nice against)
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (mill.dec)

The idea here is to maintain control with the sweepers and permission elements, and set up powerful recursive elements with the Elementals in order to overwhelm the opposition. Soem highlights:

Goblin Bombardment -  an efficient sacrifice outlet so that I can recur certain creatures every turn.
Mulldrifter - unlimited card draw - becomes a draw 4 at end of turn with skullclamp on the table at the low price of 6 mana.
Shreikmaw  - recurrable removal (also true of nameless inversion and crib swap)
Acidic Slime - see above
Timbermare - a way to keep the opposing team tapped down every turn with   up - doesn't even need a sacrifice outlet and helps push thorugh a lot of damage
Guile - ok so not so synergistic with the recursion element, but a poweful finsiher that turns every coutnerspell into a spelljack- I woudl consider removing this if anyone has a better idea
Tornado Elemental - recurrable mass removal and a decent finisher
Benthicore - most efficient token-generating elemental I could come up with, decent beater

Conpiracy, aside form having amusing applications vs Sliver decks that infest the shop, makes the following guys really quite sick with Horde and a sac outlet:

Venser, Shaper Savant -
Terastodon GG
Eternal Witness GG

Beacon of Immortality is there as a Tutor Target and for Insane Synergy with Necropotence, plus I imagine in one on one there are some faster aggro decks that just loose if you resolve it after stablizing.

Some stuff I was thinking about, but coudl find the room for/didn't know if it would be good enough:

Planar Portal - 12 mana seems like alot for a Demonic Tutor, but tutoring every turn seems oh so sick. Maybe Archmage Ascension woudl be better than this, or are both just as trashy in this format as they are everywhere else (portal and Type 4 notwithstanding)

Mana Flare and its clones - this deck seems quite mana intensive, but are thse too even-handed?

more sacrifice outlets - since the recursion effects of the various creatures work best if they can be recurred every turn. Phyrexian Altar seems particularly appealing since it helps pay for bringing the guy back.

So what do you guys think? Any sugguestions?

[Evenpence]

1v1, Zur the Enchanter has to be bar-none the best competitive general.

Getting Necropotence turn 5 (or sooner) every game is pretty nice.

Plus, you get to run a ridiculously good control spell [edit: shell] with counterspell, card draw, awesome white creature removal, and all the beastly black tutors money can buy.  I'm going to be making a Zur deck in the near future, I'll put my list here when I do.

I don't like five color in EDH -- manabases are better with only 2-3 colors, and you don't gain that much from running red or green.  Regrowth, Ancient Grudge, Fire/Ice, and Goblin Welder are all very nice, but not worth dropping a much more consistent manabase and ridiculous general.

Horde of Notions makes a much better aggro deck, which (imo) are far inferior to control decks in the format.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

1v1, Zur the Enchanter has to be bar-none the best competitive general.

I take it you've never gone 1v1 against vendellion clique

[Evenpence]

1v1, Zur the Enchanter has to be bar-none the best competitive general.

I take it you've never gone 1v1 against vendellion clique

I have.  V.C. is good, but it's no Zur.  Zur has an answer to everything and drops Necropotence on like turn 5 every game (assuming you get Zur out on turn 3).  I don't know what beats a diplomatic immunity'd Zur with a Necropotence on table.

[Killane]

Alright.

It seems clear that Zur is much stronger, however i don;t want a repuatation at the shop for running "unfair" decks. While competative, the folks at the shop are not 100% "spikes" as it were, and degenerate decks do take some flak, so I'm looking to build something strong, but not broken in half.

that said, are the any thoughts related to the concept/decklist above- Horde of Notions as a control general with the deck designed to capitalize/abuse the recursion ability of the general?

[Evenpence]

Alright.

It seems clear that Zur is much stronger, however i don;t want a repuatation at the shop for running "unfair" decks. While competative, the folks at the shop are not 100% "spikes" as it were, and degenerate decks do take some flak, so I'm looking to build something strong, but not broken in half.

that said, are the any thoughts related to the concept/decklist above- Horde of Notions as a control general with the deck designed to capitalize/abuse the recursion ability of the general?

Right, sorry to derail the thread.  Looking back on my original post, I feel like a douche.

A few thoughts:

I have played against a few Horde of Notions decks that have tried to win via general damage.  A few people have just eschewed the whole wrath effect plan and used different types of creature control cards like Moat (unfortunately need another way to give their general flying), Tabernacle, etc.  They also run ways to dissuade opponents from attacking them via Forcefield / Stuffy Doll (lol).  I like Vanishing much more, but that gives a whole new set of problems.

Have you tried these cards?
Vanishing (Vanishing is actually an exceptional enchantment to apply to your general because it allows you to play wrath effects)
Overwhelming Intellect (better than Spelljack imo)
Hinder (superior to dissipate for lol'ing generals to the bottom of their library)
Mana Drain (might be a budget issue)
Path to Exile / Swords to Plowshares (seem better than condemn for instance)

[Killane]

Alright.

It seems clear that Zur is much stronger, however i don;t want a repuatation at the shop for running "unfair" decks. While competative, the folks at the shop are not 100% "spikes" as it were, and degenerate decks do take some flak, so I'm looking to build something strong, but not broken in half.

that said, are the any thoughts related to the concept/decklist above- Horde of Notions as a control general with the deck designed to capitalize/abuse the recursion ability of the general?

Right, sorry to derail the thread.  Looking back on my original post, I feel like a douche.

A few thoughts:

I have played against a few Horde of Notions decks that have tried to win via general damage.  A few people have just eschewed the whole wrath effect plan and used different types of creature control cards like Moat (unfortunately need another way to give their general flying), Tabernacle, etc.  They also run ways to dissuade opponents from attacking them via Forcefield / Stuffy Doll (lol).  I like Vanishing much more, but that gives a whole new set of problems.

Have you tried these cards?
Vanishing (Vanishing is actually an exceptional enchantment to apply to your general because it allows you to play wrath effects)
Overwhelming Intellect (better than Spelljack imo)
Hinder (superior to dissipate for lol'ing generals to the bottom of their library)
Mana Drain (might be a budget issue)
Path to Exile / Swords to Plowshares (seem better than condemn for instance)

No worries, actually I am going to keep a Zur deck on hand (I have most of the nasty stuff for it) for the occaision folks show up with "dick decks".
i like all your suggestions, exception:

Mana Drain - you're right, it's a budget issue.
StpS/PTE- since Condemn puts guys on the bottom of the library, I like this better for dealing with generals.

I have a vanishing lying around- I'll definitely find room for it somewhere in there- thanks for the Thought!

[Evenpence]

I have a Sharrum deck built that has been modded from Demars list posted a few months ago (I was actually building a Sharrumish control deck before I stumbled onto the thread, there's a lot of good stuff in there).  I'm going to update the list soon so you can see what I'm working with, but it is VERY similiar to what you're running, minus the red and green you have (obviously).

I think your deck is definitely headed the right way for a good dueling and multiplayer setup.  Have you thought about eschewing red and green for a Esper general, like Triplets or Sharrum?

In the history of magic, both red and green have very weak control cards compared to UWB.  I'm actually only running six black cards in my Sharrum deck (I might be running seven, I can't recall correctly atm).

If I were running red/green, I'd definitely be running an ancient grudge and regrowth.  Beyond that, I'm not really sure what I would want.

~~~~~~~

As an aside:

Besides Dismantling Blow, is there any insane enchantment/artifact removal?  If I could play with multiple copies of any card in EDH, I would play with multiple copies of Dismantling Blow.  The card does everything I want it to, and then some x8.  

Something that is like five mana and reads "destroy target artifact or enchantment, draw a card" would be perfect.  Even just a enchantment/artifact destroyer at instant speed with flashback would be grand (that would actually probably be better).

EDIT:  Found it, I'll be trying out a copy of Ray of Distortion.

EDIT x2:  GAH, I wish Rending Vines or Mystic Melting were in U/W/or/B.  I guess that's two more cards I wish I could play in G or R.  So that brings my total up to four good cards in red or green (five if you count ray of revelation, which I would definitely be running if I had a W/G/x+ general).  Green doesn't seem that bad...maybe some set soon will provide me with a good UWBG general.  Witch-Maw Nephilim probably isn't going to cut it.

EDIT x3:  Okay, so apparently there are some ridiculously good green cards for EDH.  Why isn't everyone who is running G/W running Aura Shards?  That card seems like the biggest beating for a creature heavy deck, and I have yet to see it in play.

Devout Witness seems really good too...if I wasn't running so many wrath effects / The Abyss.

OOH I found Dispeller's Capsule.  Pretty sure idc about green now.

EDIT x4: So yeah, this is a lot of edits but w/e.  I'm going to be running a Dispeller's Capsule and a Ray of Distortion.  Do you have any way to get rid of Planeswalkers in your deck?  I've included capsize to recently deal with that problem in mine -- I am still going to test out Ray of Distortion, but I don't think it will end up in the maindeck very long.  Making an EDH deck too reactive is bad news.  I guess having a lot of answers is nice, though.  Maybe it will stay in.  I'll give my results in a few days when I post my decklist and whatnot.

EDIT x5:  How has Beacon of Immortality been working out for you?  Have you tried Invincible Hymn instead?

Thanks for reading this heavily edited exceptionally lengthy post.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

1v1, Zur the Enchanter has to be bar-none the best competitive general.

I take it you've never gone 1v1 against vendellion clique

I have.  V.C. is good, but it's no Zur.  Zur has an answer to everything and drops Necropotence on like turn 5 every game (assuming you get Zur out on turn 3).  I don't know what beats a diplomatic immunity'd Zur with a Necropotence on table.

cliquing zur to the bottom of the library the turn he's played befor that happens seems good (and it's easy to accomplish). Clique is great against decks the rely heavily on the general, and I'd day that's where zur falls. Zur is a power house but I think the "bar-none" is a little over confidant.

[Evenpence]

We can agree to disagree.  I'd much rather face a V.C. deck 1v1 with anything that I have built.

[Killane]

really? It's "easy" to accomplish? ZZur tends to be quite permission heavy and you'll need a bounce spell- and you only get one shot at it given Dip. Once he swings once Clique really doesn't have an answer and just gets burried under broken enchantments that it can't counter.

[Killane]

and really, I mean my deck can't even seem to resolve a THREAD vs. Zur . How do you beat that?

[Evenpence]

and really, I mean my deck can't even seem to resolve a THREAD vs. Zur . How do you beat that?

I lol'd.  I agree with your previous statement.

Anyway, can I get an updated decklist to see what you're running atm?

Offtopic:  I'm thinking about using Memnarch in my deck, it seems ridiculously good w/ Sharuum.