[Free Article] Picking Brains – The Past, Present, And Future Of Zombie Nation

[Womba]

"If You Don't Know Where You Came From...You Can't know Where You Are Going..."

My thoughts on the Dredge archetype and the deck's evolution from inception. Enjoy!!!



http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/22801_Picking_Brains_The_Past_Present_And_Future_Of_Zombie_Nation.html

[rpf5029]

This article is very interesting.  It's nice to get into the head of an archetype that I know nothing about.  (And thinking I can race it with Elves--Blasphemy!)

Although, I love how the Vintage Champs are listed as "Miscellaneous Tournament - Indianapolis, IN."  Tsk tsk, no respect. 

[voltron00x]

Great article, Mark!

[Commandant]

+1

"We both Top 8ed the TDG Open tournament with the same 75 and nearly almost took it down if it wasn't for those that meddling kids mage."

Made me giggle.

[Justin]

A complete history on the evolution of dredge with no mention of Meadbert (Albert Kyle)? Son I am disappoint.

[Womba]

A complete history on the evolution of dredge with no mention of Meadbert (Albert Kyle)? Son I am disappoint.

Ugh, this is true  . I should have mentioned him, especially for his work which helped create the Sharuum engine version of Dredge. My apologizes good sir.... a slight oversight on my part.

[nataz]

great article, and great points about dredge needing to constantly adapt.

just an fyi, meatbert did more then shraruum dredge, he was the one who came up with the whole concept of serum powder/manaless dredge in the first place. And he did it over on the SCG vintage boards (a feat in and of itself), which meant for a long time it didn't get the coverage it deserved.

[Womba]

great article, and great points about dredge needing to constantly adapt.

just an fyi, meatbert did more then shraruum dredge, he was the one who came up with the whole concept of serum powder/manaless dredge in the first place. And he did it over on the SCG vintage boards (a feat in and of itself), which meant for a long time it didn't get the coverage it deserved.

Uhh its already in my information sir. I was just picking out one of the points where I obviously missed giving the credit he deserved. He has been with the deck for a while...Plus to my knowledge credit discussions are against the rules of TMD...

"4.  Credit Grabbing.  Arguments about the "correct" name for a deck, or who deserves credit for a deck archetype or specific innovation are prohibited.  These discussions have led to numerous flamewars."

[Prospero]

Heads up to everyone in this thread - discussions as to who deserves credit for what, are prohibited on TMD.  Let's get back to the topic at hand - discussing Mark's excellent article.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Isn't the article about dredges history and giving credit to the innovators of dredge?

[Prospero]

Isn't the article about dredges history and giving credit to the innovators of dredge?

It is.  But, as credit grabbing is a forbidden topic on TMD (as it leads to nothing but flamewars), the place to discuss any issues with the article is on the SCG forums.  Not TMD.

[nataz]

My comment was meant as less of a credit grab and more astonishment that of all the things meatbert has done for the pillar sharuum was the innovation that gets mention in the authors reply. Adding serum powder to a true manaless dredge shell is one of the pivitol moments in vintage history. Everything else is a (skilled) mismash of those first two decks, trying to find a balance of mana and spells. However it was the manaless deck that was brand new to magic as a whole.

Combined with the fact that the author spent more time on bridge then powder lead me to believe that he was undervaluing that particular innovation in his historical overview.

[Smmenen]

Re: Lab. Maniac

you make a good point about how it can win through lots of hate, but how would you plan on casting this guy if your opponent has Leyline?  Are you planning on reaching 3 mana? Really?  

Or, if they have Yixlid Jailer, how do you plan on playing Dread Return on him?  Or Dredging enough to deck yourself?  

Re: FOW in Dredge

At the first Team Serious Open, I faced a Dredge pilot that was running G. Probe and Forces post-board.  I still won, though  I can't remember the last time I lost to Dredge, just because I always run lots of Dredge hate.  

[Womba]

My comment was meant as less of a credit grab and more astonishment that of all the things meatbert has done for the pillar sharuum was the innovation that gets mention in the authors reply. Adding serum powder to a true manaless dredge shell is one of the pivitol moments in vintage history. Everything else is a (skilled) mismash of those first two decks, trying to find a balance of mana and spells. However it was the manaless deck that was brand new to magic as a whole.

Combined with the fact that the author spent more time on bridge then powder lead me to believe that he was undervaluing that particular innovation in his historical overview.

Sharuum was the first thing that came to mind as I re-skimmed the article...I don't see why we are still beating a dead horse here. If you want to have a credit discussion to beat the dead horse some more feel free to PM me and we can talk and have you air your grievances,  I acknowledged the oversight on my part and I am happy that Meadbert was given the credit for what he has done in this thread. I would also argue that Bridge from Below is the card that really tipped the archetype, more so than Serum Powder. Especially now in the modern vintage metagame, you could run Dredge without Serum Powder....ask Jake Gans....or if your serious and want to play it without Powder you can run Breakthrough and Careful Study. I did emphasis Bridge more, but only because I am of the opinion it is the card the took it to the level in which it could win tournaments....

Re: Lab. Maniac

you make a good point about how it can win through lots of hate, but how would you plan on casting this guy if your opponent has Leyline?  Are you planning on reaching 3 mana? Really? 

Or, if they have Yixlid Jailer, how do you plan on playing Dread Return on him?  Or Dredging enough to deck yourself? 

I do plan to hard-cast this guy in games two and three. Also you have Sun Titan and Dread Return as other ways to get him back. There will also be some of the typical Dredge anti-hate measure, but not quite what you think..... This isn't your typical Dredge build by any means..

I touch upon one of my early lists for this deck in my upcoming Innistrad review. I am currently working on my mini deck primer for it now for a future article, its a different beast for sure. It does have an increased land count, but the lands are enablers for the deck, such as Petrified Field, Cephalid Coliseum, and Riftstone Portal. It really takes the deck into a different direction, especially some of the sideboard strategy. I plan to answer a lot of the concerns and questions in the article

[Meddling Mike]

There is an EXPLICIT warning from Nick about credit grabbing in this thread. The author made a slight oversight in an excellent article that he has since acknowledged. Lets move on. Anything that even looks like credit grabbing, even on another's behalf, will be getting a warning.

[Smmenen]

Re: Lab. Maniac

you make a good point about how it can win through lots of hate, but how would you plan on casting this guy if your opponent has Leyline?  Are you planning on reaching 3 mana? Really? 

Or, if they have Yixlid Jailer, how do you plan on playing Dread Return on him?  Or Dredging enough to deck yourself? 

I do plan to hard-cast this guy in games two and three. A

That's fine, but how do you plan to empty your library then, if Jailer or Leyline is in play?  You can't dredge the same thing over and over again.  Your plan has lots of holes. 

[voltron00x]

Re: Lab. Maniac

you make a good point about how it can win through lots of hate, but how would you plan on casting this guy if your opponent has Leyline?  Are you planning on reaching 3 mana? Really? 

Or, if they have Yixlid Jailer, how do you plan on playing Dread Return on him?  Or Dredging enough to deck yourself? 

I do plan to hard-cast this guy in games two and three. A

That's fine, but how do you plan to empty your library then, if Jailer or Leyline is in play?  You can't dredge the same thing over and over again.  Your plan has lots of holes. 

Mark said he's going to write an article to describe the deck; let's all try to hold judgement until he's given a chance to fully describe the deck in that article.

[Smmenen]

I'm simply replying to what he said in the article and in this thread, and pointing out that his Lab Maniac plan doesn't make any sense, at least as presented.  This is an article reply thread.

[Womba]

Re: Lab. Maniac

you make a good point about how it can win through lots of hate, but how would you plan on casting this guy if your opponent has Leyline?  Are you planning on reaching 3 mana? Really? 

Or, if they have Yixlid Jailer, how do you plan on playing Dread Return on him?  Or Dredging enough to deck yourself? 

I do plan to hard-cast this guy in games two and three. A

That's fine, but how do you plan to empty your library then, if Jailer or Leyline is in play?  You can't dredge the same thing over and over again.  Your plan has lots of holes. 

Who said anything about Dredging....? 

[Smmenen]

Re: Lab. Maniac

you make a good point about how it can win through lots of hate, but how would you plan on casting this guy if your opponent has Leyline?  Are you planning on reaching 3 mana? Really? 

Or, if they have Yixlid Jailer, how do you plan on playing Dread Return on him?  Or Dredging enough to deck yourself? 

I do plan to hard-cast this guy in games two and three. A

That's fine, but how do you plan to empty your library then, if Jailer or Leyline is in play?  You can't dredge the same thing over and over again.  Your plan has lots of holes. 

Who said anything about Dredging....? 

If you plan to win with Lab. Maniac, you need a way to empty your library  beyond just tapping Bazaar a turn.  That takes 10+ turns even with a half full library. 

[Womba]

Re: Lab. Maniac

you make a good point about how it can win through lots of hate, but how would you plan on casting this guy if your opponent has Leyline?  Are you planning on reaching 3 mana? Really? 

Or, if they have Yixlid Jailer, how do you plan on playing Dread Return on him?  Or Dredging enough to deck yourself? 

I do plan to hard-cast this guy in games two and three. A

That's fine, but how do you plan to empty your library then, if Jailer or Leyline is in play?  You can't dredge the same thing over and over again.  Your plan has lots of holes. 

Who said anything about Dredging....? 

If you plan to win with Lab. Maniac, you need a way to empty your library  beyond just tapping Bazaar a turn.  That takes 10+ turns even with a half full library. 

I am well aware....

I plan to answer a lot of the concerns and questions in the article

 

[voltron00x]

I would say Mark is building interest in a future article and has no obligation to give a detailed description, in this thread. 

Nothing wrong with building interest in one's products, am I right?

[nataz]

transitional SB into doomsday!

[wiley]

Despite having the blazing speed, Dredge would be regulated to tier two status for now. The metagame was not correct for Dredge in numerous ways. Flash combo had a lot of people already packing graveyard hate, the best graveyard hate of all time, Leyline of the Void. Why play Dredge? You could play Flash combo instead and be more resilient to graveyard hate. It didn't logically add up to play Dredge at this time. The Gush decks were also able to keep pace with Dredge, in addition to being able to hit their hate at a fast clip given the nature of the draw engine. Finally, Dredge didn't have the tools to deal with graveyard hate…

From my experience dredge was a good choice in the past gush era.  The caveat being that combo dredge, ie trying to set up a lethal fkz, was not the best form of the deck.  Instead it was better to go to a control deck that naturally produced threats thanks to bridge.  I personally chose to try and color screw opponents via wasteland and sundering titan.  Wasteland was actually able to control when an opponent used gush and could allow you to get more out of unmask an cabal therapy.

In addition, the make-up for the majority of blue decks (all of which used the gush engine) were highly susceptible to fast therapies, especially ones aimed towards breaking up the engine (such as naming brainstorm or gush or scroll).  The deck further complicated the gush engine by having leylines of its own to shut off will, which was often pivotal in making the gush deck win a turn or two faster.

An example decklist:
Maindeck (60):
Spells (49):

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
2 Sundering Titan
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Unmask
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

Lands (11):

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland


Sideboard (15):

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Wispmare

As far as not having hate for dredge hate, well ... it still had options, just none as stellar as nature's claim.  Instead the plan was that you would run hate for their main plan and both decks would function crippled until they found their answer.  And since bazaar is only shut off by needle, dredge often found its answers first as long as they were aggressive.

All of this is relatively pointless to post as it is just an analysis of a metagame that will never return, but it does show a few less looked at options to consider for future metagames.  For now though it seems there needs to be some sense of urgency to the deck as it has to keep pace with hard to disrupt vault/key plays.  My wet dream is still that they put null rod text onto a big creature.

Overall I liked the article, I've seen a lot of people say it was too long, but it held my interest the whole way through so I never noticed.  I definitely look forward to this radical dredge build you keep hinting at