[Free Podcast] SMIP #7: Innistrad & Modern

[Smmenen]

http://mtgcast.com/?p=20201

I thought this was a great podcast, but at least several people hated it.  Your feedback is valuable. We will do podcast topics and styles that people like, but we wanted to experiment....

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Steve, is this the ghost woman you were wondering about?



One bit of constructive criticism for this episode: Kevin, you could have been a bit more prepared to talk about Innistrad and Brian's article.  Not knowing what colors the ISD's tribes are, which exact tribes will be in the set, and having to wonder where Brian ranked the various cards in his article shouldn't have happened.  Aren't you guys at a computer when you do this?  I'm used to the higher quality of discourse in SMIP podcast because you are always on your game.  This time, though, the lack of preparedness in certain parts really did stand out.  I hope I'm not throwing bombs.  I don't intend to.  But in the past, SMIP podcast has blown away the other podcasts of the week as far as quality and knowledge-of-topic goes.  This week, you were on par with the rest.  Not bad, mind you, but not as great as normal.

On a brighter note, The Dark has also been my favorite set ever since I started playing as well!  Of course, that's the set I started with, but you guys were right.  The flavor, the art (Drew Tucker's Murk Dwellers and Quinton Hoover's Drowned are awesome), and the mechanics were so evocative.  Seriously, I feel bad for anyone who started playing Magic later.  Missing out on the flavor of The Dark and even Fallen Empires is tragic.

Also, other abilities with variable effects like Morbid include: Kinship, Domain, Channel, Imprint, etc etc etc.

Peace,

-Troy

[Onslaught]

Why is a Vintage podcast spending an eternity saying "Innistrad is about ghosts and stuff, and there are flip cards"

The discussion itself was amusing/interesting, but I can see why others disliked the topics you chose for this week.

[DubDub]

Steve, is this the ghost woman you were wondering about?

No, no, no.  Steve was clearly describing a white card featuring a woman with a veil.  He must mean Kismet:


I was unaware the woman in this art is a ghost though...

Here's a Morbid card that would see vintage play:

Gross Cemetery
Land
Gross Cemetery enters the battlefield tapped.
Morbid - At the beginning of each end step, return Gross Cemetery from your graveyard to the battlefield if a creature died this turn.
 : Add   to your mana pool.

That seems playable in Dredge with Bloodghasts triggering it and then returning to the battlefield when it does.

Re: Transform guys.  Step one: Vial.  Step two: Ethersworn Canonist.

Listening to Steve hear these cards for the first time is hilarious.
"3/1 doublestriker for 3?  That's terrible.  I demand two CMC."
"But wait, there's a bonus, Werewolves you control can't be blocked except by two or more creatures."
"Whoopdee-freakin-do."

[Smmenen]

Thanks for all the feedback so far guys.   It's appreciated. 

Why is a Vintage podcast spending an eternity saying "Innistrad is about ghosts and stuff, and there are flip cards"

The discussion itself was amusing/interesting, but I can see why others disliked the topics you chose for this week.

Well, we did spend a good deal of time trying to envision theoretical/hypothetical applications for these new mechanics.  Such speculation is useful because as new cards are revealed, our theorized possibilities, and the analysis underlying it, can be applied to evaluate them.   

We've definitely bled from a far more structured and focused show -- ala our first two or three episodes -- to more of a conversational style in this one.   It apparently didn't work for many of you, and I respect that.  I'm prone to digressions and minutiae. 

Heya,

Steve, is this the ghost woman you were wondering about?

That's it!  Thank you!

One bit of constructive criticism for this episode: Kevin, you could have been a bit more prepared to talk about Innistrad and Brian's article.  Not knowing what colors the ISD's tribes are, which exact tribes will be in the set, and having to wonder where Brian ranked the various cards in his article shouldn't have happened.  Aren't you guys at a computer when you do this?  I'm used to the higher quality of discourse in SMIP podcast because you are always on your game.  This time, though, the lack of preparedness in certain parts really did stand out.  I hope I'm not throwing bombs.  I don't intend to.  But in the past, SMIP podcast has blown away the other podcasts of the week as far as quality and knowledge-of-topic goes.  This week, you were on par with the rest.  Not bad, mind you, but not as great as normal.

I appreciate the candid feedback, and suspect that if you feel that way, many listeners felt worse.

I thought that the back and forth would add to the podcast, but it apparently detracted.   People liked the chemistry of the earliest shows better it seems, although I really enjoyed doing this show.

Our next show will undoubtedly be more on Innistrad, and will have more detailed and focused analysis.  Kevin and I also want to discuss more play scenarios.

Steve, is this the ghost woman you were wondering about?

No, no, no.  Steve was clearly describing a white card featuring a woman with a veil.  He must mean Kismet:


I was unaware the woman in this art is a ghost though...

Here's a Morbid card that would see vintage play:

Gross Cemetery
Land
Gross Cemetery enters the battlefield tapped.
Morbid - At the beginning of each end step, return Gross Cemetery from your graveyard to the battlefield if a creature died this turn.
 : Add  to your mana pool.

That seems playable in Dredge with Bloodghasts triggering it and then returning to the battlefield when it does.

Re: Transform guys.  Step one: Vial.  Step two: Ethersworn Canonist.

Great theorizing. I think this kind of thinking will be helpful once all of the cards are spoiled. I like your card too

[MaximumCDawg]

Blasphamey! Drew Tucker art is like a monkey smearing paint on a page and ending up with something that vaguely resembles what a nearsighted person sees in dim light.  If you wanna talk about good early artists, for pete's sale, talk about Mark Tedin and Quenton Hoover!  Those guys are BOSS.

Otherwise, liked the Podcast, but not as much your others.  It did seem less polished.  There was also not nearly enough in-game play decision analysis.  Keep up the good work!

EDIT: I thought about your closing question - Modern's impact on Eternal.  I'm pretty sure it heralds the death knell for official support of these formats.  Basically, as you pointed out in the podcast, Modern solves the reserve list problem going forward.  If the powers that be feel like they have solved the problem, there is no pressure to find other solutions, such as abanoning the stupid thing.  And, as we all know, without a change to the reserve list Legacy and Vintage cannot grow much.  Nor can Wizards make much profit off them.

Still, the news isnt all bad.  As Philly showed, just because you ban all of the combos that you can think of doesn't mean the players won't still find degenerate things to do.  Over on Monday Night Magic, they were commenting about the strange lack of control decks in Modern.  This is a big issue.  Aggro decks can't compete with fast combo, and a large card pool will probably always find fast combo.  Heck, a fast enough aggro deck might as well be called "combo" since it's probably relying on a broken interaction to get so fast.

The way I see it, if Wizards is really serious about keeping combo in check in Modern, they need to do one of two things: (1) Aggressively ban combo pieces on a regular basis, shooting down issues as they arise, or: (2) Print or re-print cards that keep combo in check.  Such as Force of Will, for example.

So, I would not be surprised if Wizards decides that Modern simply requires reprinting some eternal staples just to keep the format from flying apart.  And if they do, that might help us droogs who keep playing the eternal format even as they wither around us.

EDIT2: Also, the recently spoiled Laboratory Maniac is the most interesting Vintage playable I've seen come out of Innistrad yet.  Win if you cannot draw?  People are discussing it's application in Dredge, which I question, but it also combos with Demonic Consultation (and its friends like Divining Witch), Leveler, or Mirror of Fate.  Interesting!

[2nd_lawl]

Blasphamey! Drew Tucker art is like a monkey smearing paint on a page and ending up with something that vaguely resembles what a nearsighted person sees in dim light.  If you wanna talk about good early artists, for pete's sale, talk about Mark Tedin and Quenton Hoover!  Those guys are BOSS.

Otherwise, liked the Podcast, but not as much your others.  It did seem less polished.  There was also not nearly enough in-game play decision analysis.  Keep up the good work!

EDIT: I thought about your closing question - Modern's impact on Eternal.  I'm pretty sure it heralds the death knell for official support of these formats.  Basically, as you pointed out in the podcast, Modern solves the reserve list problem going forward.  If the powers that be feel like they have solved the problem, there is no pressure to find other solutions, such as abanoning the stupid thing.  And, as we all know, without a change to the reserve list Legacy and Vintage cannot grow much.  Nor can Wizards make much profit off them.

Still, the news isnt all bad.  As Philly showed, just because you ban all of the combos that you can think of doesn't mean the players won't still find degenerate things to do.  Over on Monday Night Magic, they were commenting about the strange lack of control decks in Modern.  This is a big issue.  Aggro decks can't compete with fast combo, and a large card pool will probably always find fast combo.  Heck, a fast enough aggro deck might as well be called "combo" since it's probably relying on a broken interaction to get so fast.

The way I see it, if Wizards is really serious about keeping combo in check in Modern, they need to do one of two things: (1) Aggressively ban combo pieces on a regular basis, shooting down issues as they arise, or: (2) Print or re-print cards that keep combo in check.  Such as Force of Will, for example.

So, I would not be surprised if Wizards decides that Modern simply requires reprinting some eternal staples just to keep the format from flying apart.  And if they do, that might help us droogs who keep playing the eternal format even as they wither around us.

EDIT2: Also, the recently spoiled Laboratory Maniac is the most interesting Vintage playable I've seen come out of Innistrad yet.  Win if you cannot draw?  People are discussing it's application in Dredge, which I question, but it also combos with Demonic Consultation (and its friends like Divining Witch), Leveler, or Mirror of Fate.  Interesting!

Generally speaking control decks were a tough sell for PT philly specifically, as the format continues to shake out(and people realize that cloudpost is pretty bad) control decks will emerge.

[MaximumCDawg]

So, we've got more information on Wizard's approach to Modern after the new BR changes.  I previously suggested that, if Wizards was serious about keeping a new eternal format under control and stop degenerate combos, it would need to either: (1) Print a FoW-level card to act as a safeguard; or (2) Ban aggressively and repeatedly.  The second option seemed less likely, since it amounts to a game of whack-a-mole; every time you ban the engine of one combo, the next best one will take its place.  In an eternal format, I can't imagine that the players will be unable to find a new combo!

But, the BR changes show that Wizards is indeed getting out the fuzzy mallet.  Combined with the banning of Mistep in Legacy, it seems like Wizards wants Modern to be a format where no FoW-level control is necessary.  That's a fool's errand that will lead to an ever-expanding banned list, and a format that is more like Extended than Legacy or Vintage.

I bring this up here because it changes my thoughts on Modern.  Since Modern is going to play so differently, I suspect the other enteral formats WILL continue to survive and Wizards will have to pay some attention to them.  People who enjoy the high-octane of "real" Eternal arn't gonna be satisfied with the watered-down, ban-happy Modern.  I know I wont.

[evouga]

Steve, I think at the root of the complaints about this podcast is a question of comparative advantage. I don't think the banter and unstructured discussion in this episode was of any lower quality than what you would find in other MtG podcasts... but in-depth informed analysis of Vintage is something unique to SMIP, and truly made the older episodes stand out.

[MaximumCDawg]

Steve, I think at the root of the complaints about this podcast is a question of comparative advantage. I don't think the banter and unstructured discussion in this episode was of any lower quality than what you would find in other MtG podcasts... but in-depth informed analysis of Vintage is something unique to SMIP, and truly made the older episodes stand out.

Amen.  If I want to hear people speculating about random nerdspeak or reporting spoilers to me, I can get that anywhere.  What I CAN'T get is a well-reasoned discussion about Vintage from the top players of the format.  I know this is just one person's opinion and all, but my ideal show would be something like:

(0) Important news items such as tourneys, oracle changes, etc; game-wide information from a Vintage perspective.
(1) Metagame analysis, as available, from the most applicable tournaments, and what the analysis means.
(2) Deck analysis, as available, from new decklists, new cards in old decklists, or deck buidling principles in general.
(3) Game state analysis, especially those that tend to actually come up in competitive Vintage.  Loved your close look at Workshop decisions a few months back.
(4) Card analysis, either new printings or old cards worth a second look because of new printings or a shift in the metagame.

See what I did there?  This formula starts at the highest level and marches down through each level of the game: Metagame, deck choices, play choices, individual cards.  It's got tons of room for experts like yourself to give scrubs like myself alot of useful information.  

[Smmenen]

We recorded episode 8 last Weds.  I assume Kevin will have it up soon, and hopefully it is much better than 7...

[doggue]

I found #7 was absolutely fine... =)

Looking forward to the next one!

[Troy_Costisick]

We recorded episode 8 last Weds.  I assume Kevin will have it up soon, and hopefully it is much better than 7...

Awesome!  I can't wait to hear it!