[Free Podcast] SMIP #12: First Impressions of Dark Ascension

[Smmenen]

http://www.mtgcast.com/?p=22506

Kevin Cron and Stephen Menendian discuss recent trends in the Vintage metagame and two cards spoiled from Dark Ascension that will see play in Vintage.

As always, let us know what you think!

[boggyb]

The card that changes Vintage forever. Unreal.

Steve and Kevin -- I demand an emergency podcast to help us sort all this out!

Also, I wonder if more people could post preliminary testing result discussions as they come.

Ha, my prayers are answered! Thanks Listening shortly. . .

[Troy_Costisick]

Wow! Another one so soon?  Can't wait to give it a listen, Stephen.  Thanks for the hard work

[Troy_Costisick]

Okay, finished listening.  Great episode.  I mean really, this was a great episode.  I hope people who have never played Vintage get to listen to this one because it will get anyone excited about the format.

To address you question of the week:  At first, the anti-creature tech is going to roll out slowly.  Fire/Ice and Darkblast are already here, but those numbers  are going to increase first (especially Fire/Ice).  When that proves insufficient, people will try to switch to Pyroclasm and/or Firespout.  Those will knock out anything short of Goyfs, Hellkites, and Batterskulls.  So if those two prove unworkable, then we might- we just might- see a resurgence of white for Swords and Balance.  Balance is the ultimate anti-creature card and it dodges all the free countermagic except Force. 

It's just interesting to me that since Time Spiral block debuted, creatures have gotten A LOT stronger, but it's taken this long for them to get strong enough for the solid majority of Vintage decks to care.  I mean, what kind of Vintage decks aren't going to play at least 8 creatures now?  Other than Oath, that is.  Dark Ritual decks are dead (something you might have wanted to mention in your podcast).  Gushstorm decks like The Tropical Storm are nowhere to be found.  So it seems RnD's focus on making creatures better is finally paying off, even in Vintage.

[MaximumCDawg]

Dark Ritual decks are dead (something you might have wanted to mention in your podcast).  Gushstorm decks like The Tropical Storm are nowhere to be found.  So it seems RnD's focus on making creatures better is finally paying off, even in Vintage.

This is temporary.  I predict that, if the meta really does shift to creatures, then you will see alot more of these spell-intensive combo decks.  Shops are keeping them down now, but consider what happens if Fishy decks become more prevelant:
(1) Aggro/Fishy decks - Blowout for the storm deck.
(2) Blue control - Virtually a mirror.  You could use some boarding, but not much should be necessary.
(3) Dredge, Oath - Both stopped with Cage in board.
(4) Shops - You can dedicate 8-11 slots in your deck to this matchup, potentially...!

In other words:  since Storm beats Fish maindeck, and Cage lowers the sideboard space needed for other matchups, if aggro/fish ramps up, Storm might have the sideboard space to actually beat Shops.

[Troy_Costisick]

Dark Ritual decks are dead (something you might have wanted to mention in your podcast).  Gushstorm decks like The Tropical Storm are nowhere to be found.  So it seems RnD's focus on making creatures better is finally paying off, even in Vintage.

This is temporary.  I predict that, if the meta really does shift to creatures, then you will see alot more of these spell-intensive combo decks.  Shops are keeping them down now, but consider what happens if Fishy decks become more prevelant:
(1) Aggro/Fishy decks - Blowout for the storm deck.
(2) Blue control - Virtually a mirror.  You could use some boarding, but not much should be necessary.
(3) Dredge, Oath - Both stopped with Cage in board.
(4) Shops - You can dedicate 8-11 slots in your deck to this matchup, potentially...!

In other words:  since Storm beats Fish maindeck, and Cage lowers the sideboard space needed for other matchups, if aggro/fish ramps up, Storm might have the sideboard space to actually beat Shops.

I don't think a storm deck is going to play Cage.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Dark Ritual decks are dead (something you might have wanted to mention in your podcast).  Gushstorm decks like The Tropical Storm are nowhere to be found.  So it seems RnD's focus on making creatures better is finally paying off, even in Vintage.

This is temporary.  I predict that, if the meta really does shift to creatures, then you will see alot more of these spell-intensive combo decks.  Shops are keeping them down now, but consider what happens if Fishy decks become more prevelant:
(1) Aggro/Fishy decks - Blowout for the storm deck.
(2) Blue control - Virtually a mirror.  You could use some boarding, but not much should be necessary.
(3) Dredge, Oath - Both stopped with Cage in board.
(4) Shops - You can dedicate 8-11 slots in your deck to this matchup, potentially...!

In other words:  since Storm beats Fish maindeck, and Cage lowers the sideboard space needed for other matchups, if aggro/fish ramps up, Storm might have the sideboard space to actually beat Shops.

I've been playing combo/doomsday a lot lately and placing pretty well. I've been considering one of its strengths that you don't really need to board much for ichorid and fish if anything. 3 cards against control. Then like a bazillion cards for shops because well, you can play around most dudes if you even care about them, and control doesn't need much tipping.  You can literary play like 8-10 cards for shop if you want to right now and cage is not out yet.

edit: the savior of combo is that maniac makes the deck so much faster and more versatile (playing around teeg is a no brainer for example). I only see it getting better with cage encouraging U to run more dead dude cards and utility bounce spells. Or if cage encourages more beats it’s just as favorable.

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't know if it's LIKELY that storm decks adopt this card, because it does stop their own Yawgwill.  But I could easily conceive of a storm deck that packs multiple Hurkyl's and Rebuild's main and boarded for the purpose of storming out with jewelry and stopping shops.  If you've got that kind of gameplan, then Cage may not be a bad idea.  Besides, Storm would board this guy anyway; it wouldn't be maindeck.

Steve, great podcast, per usual.  I was surprised that you did not discuss Maniac Oath, since you put Maniac to probably it's best use in the Doomsday deck awhile back.  That variant of Oath is only moderately impacted by Cage, and so if I were going to play Oath, it's the only version I'd run.  The more people rely on Cage for Oath hate, the better Maniac Oath becomes.

I don't predict Maniac Oath is gonna surge in the metagame, however, because I bet alot of the new sideboard space is going to go to the other boogeyman - shops.  Lots of shop hate also hits enchantments (nature's claim, trygon), so I imagine people will remain well-prepared for Oath anyway.

[Smmenen]

  I was surprised that you did not discuss Maniac Oath,

We did discuss Maniac Oath. 

[MaximumCDawg]

  I was surprised that you did not discuss Maniac Oath,

We did discuss Maniac Oath. 

I missed it...?  I guess I must have skipped ahead when starting and stopping.  Guess I have to listen to it again! 

[BaronSengir]

Great cast! I've listened to it three times already and keep picking up stuff I missed before; really informative.

[Smmenen]

Sooooo. Who's gonna answer our question of the week?

[cvarosky80]

Sooooo. Who's gonna answer our question of the week?

I could certainly see a lot of people follow Josh Potucek's lead and start running Engineered Explosives in larger numbers. It's one of the few removal tactics that can hit Goyfs no matter what p/t they're at, and since most Blue control decks are running 3 colors as is, it's the easiest to insert as it doesn't require any specific color to cast.

[Onslaught]

Semi-related to question of the week: I'm just sorta marveling at the fact that my Gush control decks have Doom Blade in the board now. Like, if someone had said six months ago that I would be running a Terror type effect in my deck I would have laughed in their face. Yet, here we are...

Direct answer to question of the week: Balance. Somebody please play Keeper as dedicated as Josh played Landstill and crush a vulnerable meta. There are some decks right now that want no part of a control deck running Wasteland like Keeper, and you have some bomby plays with Balance, Mind Twist, etc. Even post Grafdigger Cage, Keeper can plod along swinging with a Gorilla Shaman or Clique or Sower or Trygon or something while playing the control/denial role very well.

Also, maybe Rituals can see more play in a creature heavy meta. The more Tarms/Delvers/Trygons etc that someone is casting, the less actual spells they have to stop you from explosive/aggresive Ritual plays.

[MaximumCDawg]

Sooooo. Who's gonna answer our question of the week?

I don't think the answer is Perish, Nature's Ruin, or Virtue's Ruin.  Having creatures does not a Legacy metagame make.  You still need to be able to deal with Tinker, Yawg, and all the other nasty things that happen in Vintage.  I think the most successful creature removal is going to be the sort that can handle the largest variety of threats.  So, while the 2B sweepers above are fine and good if you know you're only going to deal with Tarmogoyf all day long, the following are probably a better bet, and probably in this order:

1. Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - So long as it's not a creature mirror, this card does brutal things to decks relying on creatures.  

2.  Balance - The absolute last word in creature destruction.  Deals with everything, deals with it well.

3. Sower of Temptation - Answers creatures of all kinds, up to and including Blightsteel.  No creatures around?  At least she beats for 2, which is relevant when facing a Planeswalker, for instance.  Backbreaking when it sticks.

4. Mind Harness - A blowout againsy Goyf, but pretty lame in any other situation.  Sideboard fodder, sure, but hardly an all-star.

5. Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Ratchet Bomb, Pernicious Deed - These are awesome sweepers very well suited to deal with a deck full of 1 and 2 drop creature threats, while still being useful against the broader field.  Problem is, they can be pre-emptively destroyed by most fish decks.

6. Mudslide / Propoganda / Ghostly Prison - Taxing effects will slow down a creature deck, and also work against Dredge in a way that alot of other things do not.  Awesome with a Tabernacle in play.

6. Crime // Punishment - Bear with me here.  This card is not a good time with Dark Confidant, for sure, but it's a really useful one-two punch against creature decks.  At 4, Punishment will sweep away most of the creatures bothering you, and also hits problematic artifacts.  At 5, Crime will let you grab an enemy's Goyf for yourself.  

7. Damnation - Better than Mutilate or Forced March, and in a better color than Wrath of God.  4 might be too much.

8. Planar Collapse - If ONLY this said 3 or more creatures, I think it would be playable.  At 4, it's too easy to play around.  It might work in a deck like Oath that can spam spirit tokens, but then, Oath has better answers to creatures (like Oath).

COMEDY OPTIONS

1. Uncle Istivan - In Soviet Russia, Tarmogoyf is blocked by creepy old men!

2. Sorrow's Path - With combat becoming more important, now being able to control blockers is okay nevermind I can't do this this card is making my brain curdle.

[CHA1N5]

Semi-related to question of the week: I'm just sorta marveling at the fact that my Gush control decks have Doom Blade in the board now. Like, if someone had said six months ago that I would be running a Terror type effect in my deck I would have laughed in their face. Yet, here we are...

Doomblade has been good/played for a while now.  Don't be afraid of what works.


What deck(s), aside from Dredge, could support Firestorm these days?



Podcast corrections:
1) I repeatedly referred to Demon as a 5/5.  My mistake, but it does not materially change my analysis.
2) I spoke our e-mail wrong!  D'oH   SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com   


Really looking forward to watching things pan out in the post-Cage meta.

[Guli]

It is amazing to finally listen to what I have been talking about for years in a podcast coming from you 2 gals. I especially liked the part were all the utility bears were being named and how the strategy is to overload the opponent (or overwhelm).

[serracollector]

Great podcast guys!  I really liked it.  Psionic Blast is no lightning bolt tho Kevin.  Psionic is 1 damage more, and as we all know magic comes down to the 1's, that 1 extra damage led to my 3rd round win, killing a 3/4 goyf, then surgically extracting it, 1 damage, huge difference, also its blue, and thus can be force fodder, no need to pollute the deck with other colors, blue has everything one needs.  Anyway's I am glad that we are coming into more of a creature age.  I love tapping things other than a time vault or blight once before winning the game personally.  As for your question of the week, you guys keep naming Perish, Virtue, Pyroclasm, but you never mentioned BLUE's best combat, Hibernation.  This card hits:

Edric
Trygon
Goyf
Selkie
Qasali
Teeg
ESG
terstadon (lol?)
Scavenging Ooze

and probably more I have missed.  It gets under teeg, its an instant, and its blue.  And one bounce of their entire field should give the blue deck enough breathing room to do what blue does.

Keep up the work, can't wait til the next post. 

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Dark Ritual decks are dead (something you might have wanted to mention in your podcast).  Gushstorm decks like The Tropical Storm are nowhere to be found.  So it seems RnD's focus on making creatures better is finally paying off, even in Vintage.

This is temporary.  I predict that, if the meta really does shift to creatures, then you will see alot more of these spell-intensive combo decks.  Shops are keeping them down now, but consider what happens if Fishy decks become more prevelant:
(1) Aggro/Fishy decks - Blowout for the storm deck.
(2) Blue control - Virtually a mirror.  You could use some boarding, but not much should be necessary.
(3) Dredge, Oath - Both stopped with Cage in board.
(4) Shops - You can dedicate 8-11 slots in your deck to this matchup, potentially...!

In other words:  since Storm beats Fish maindeck, and Cage lowers the sideboard space needed for other matchups, if aggro/fish ramps up, Storm might have the sideboard space to actually beat Shops.

I beat TPS rounds one and two 4-0 at the Meandeck Open with Noble Fish.  I wouldn't call it a blowout match up. Noble Fish can pack more counters than you think.

[voltron00x]

Oxidize and Crumble?  Oh, Meandeckers, you're so silly. You missed the most obvious next card.

re: Demon Oath... it isn't just that you can get Time Walk into Will.  You'd be surprised how many games you win against blue by just tutoring up a counterspell, or against Shops by getting a land, or against Dredge by getting another hate card or counter for protecting your hate card, etc etc.  It's just such a flexible engine.

Also, the Oath decks don't really prey on Gro, because Gro has a really strong game 2/3 plan and is hugely favored post-board.  Remora is also especially strong against Oath b/c they lack a draw engine.  Now, the Delver decks may be a different story, not sure, but I think that deck isn't as strong as Gro in general.

re: Mind Harness, Legacy players should be familiar with it, but the problem with that card is that most of the Tarmogoyf decks have Mental Misstep, so I think I'd probably go for some of the other options.

Anyway, great stuff.  Glad that you're doing these.  Between you both, Mark, and Brian there's a lot of good, free Vintage content on the web right now.

[CHA1N5]

Oxidize and Crumble?  Oh, Meandeckers, you're so silly. You missed the most obvious next card.

Well, we were planning to keep the Uktabi Kong tech for the next MDO.  #I'veSaidTooMuch

re: Demon Oath... it isn't just that you can get Time Walk into Will.  You'd be surprised how many games you win against blue by just tutoring up a counterspell, or against Shops by getting a land, or against Dredge by getting another hate card or counter for protecting your hate card, etc etc.  It's just such a flexible engine.

This is fair.  I was thinking about it much more like a combo deck. 

Anyway, great stuff.  Glad that you're doing these.  Between you both, Mark, and Brian there's a lot of good, free Vintage content on the web right now.

Thanks for your feedback.