Notion Thief

[StanleyAugust]

And the best Rogue of them all: Edric.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Problem with this guy is he's pretty awful vs shops, fish, and dredge if they still can dredge...it also competes with Jace at the 4 mana slot. Also if some decks include Ral, this guy most definitely doesn't stay around. Additionally almost every deck in the format is more then suited to answer a creature like this, and if they are not they either don't care or have poor deck design...

That being said he looks pretty cool...

[Wagner]

Problem with this guy is he's pretty awful vs shops, fish, and dredge if they still can dredge...it also competes with Jace at the 4 mana slot. Also if some decks include Ral, this guy most definitely doesn't stay around. Additionally almost every deck in the format is more then suited to answer a creature like this, and if they are not they either don't care or have poor deck design...

That being said he looks pretty cool...

But he doesn't have to stay around, if casted at the right time, you will draw 3 and your opponent will put 2 on top, at that point, staying around is really that that important.
Just the fact that he exists might alter the way some people use Jace when the opponent has 4 mana up if he manages to see a bit of play, and I feel that's a good thing.
He's not GREAT vs fish, but he's still able to trade with most creatures and can surprise block a Bob.

[MaximumCDawg]

And the best Rogue of them all: Edric.

Truth.  I tried really hard to make a deck with these little duders, but it never was very good.  It was something like:

Rogues (20)
 
4 Prickly Boggart
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Oona's Blackguard

3 Edric, Spymaster of Trent
3 Bitterblossom
3 Earwig Squad

Other Stuff (40)

(Typical BUG Fish fare)

[Ten-Ten]

jace beleren just got better combined with this guy

also, if Notion thief starts seing lots of play, Jace Architect of thought may be an alternative to The Mindsculptor.

[xouman]

I started vintage playing rogues. UB rogues, quite a crap deck. I featured earwig squad, oona's blackguard, looter il-kor, rootwater thief, mutavault, fows, duress, null rod, daze... looter il-kor was a great enabler of prowl, while filtering draws.

this card would have entered that deck. but that deck was awful hehehe

[gkraigher]

And the best Rogue of them all: Edric.

Truth.  I tried really hard to make a deck with these little duders, but it never was very good.  It was something like:

Rogues (20)
 
4 Prickly Boggart
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Oona's Blackguard

3 Edric, Spymaster of Trent
3 Bitterblossom
3 Earwig Squad

Other Stuff (40)

(Typical BUG Fish fare)

Prickly Boggart and Invisible Stalker are cards that are more than fair.  They yield no advantage by themselves, and need other cards to have impact.  That being the case, you will get flooded with these cards in some games and you will not have a chance to win.  That's why these cards are unplayable.  Edric is fine, but he is also green.  Which means you cannot play red, and therefore cannot play with the best stand alone rogue, GOBLIN VANDAL.  The rogue deck I am picturing, is designed to deplete your opponents resources.  Not necessarily increase yours.  Even if you curve out, with boggart, stalker, into edric.  You've done 3 damage and drawn 2 cards on turn 3 in vintage.  That is a game loss.  

On the flip side, lets say you follow my strategy, and deplete your opponent of his resources with a deck of something like this:

4 dark ritual
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 mox ruby
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 lotus petal
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 black lotus

4 frogtosser bannerer
4 earwig squads
4 oona's blackguard
4 goblin vandal
2 bitterblossom
3 faerie macabre
3 notion thief
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 vamperic tutor
1 brainstorm
3 thoughtseize

4 cavern of souls
4 polluted delta
3 black fetch land
2 underground sea
2 badlands
1 swamp
1 island

sideboard:
4 grafdigger's cage
4 energy flux
3 master thief
1 faerie macabre
2 mental misstep
1 notion thief

I really think frogtosser banneret is much better than stalker and boggart.  With a dark ritual and any artifact mana, you can cast blackguard and banneret on turn 1, and attack for the discard.  Haste to me is a much more important ability than being unblockable, and to boot, he makes everything in your deck cheaper to cast.  

[gkraigher]

accidental duplicate post. 

[mmcgeach]

Fast mana, this guy, and Whispering Madness.  That is a deck.

[KrauserKrauser]

Why not try a drain deck with him and a few Draw 7's?

With him out Timetwister reads Draw 14 cards, Mind Twist your opponent, Reshuffle all graveyards.  Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, same deal.  Heck with him out you can even get value out of things like Winds of Change.

He just seems like a massive beating against control but would need alot of support vs. Shops and Dredge.

[Charlie]

Why not try a drain deck with him and a few Draw 7's?

With him out Timetwister reads Draw 14 cards, Mind Twist your opponent, Reshuffle all graveyards.  Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, same deal.  Heck with him out you can even get value out of things like Winds of Change.

He just seems like a massive beating against control but would need alot of support vs. Shops and Dredge.

If you have to play a 4 mana card and other inferior cards just to combo with it, you are better off playing Key-Vault or Painter combo instead.

[vaughnbros]

I could definitely see this getting some play.  I don't really think in vintage rogues, but to each their own.  I see him as more of an anti-blue finisher.  You can instantly misdirect any draw spell against them and then while in play every single card that says draw a card on it becomes a dead card for your opponent making him generate an enormous amount of card advantage.

I'd like to highlight one specific case.  If your opponent plays a Jace brainstorms and you respond with this guy you draw three cards, your opponent has to put 2 cards back and you have a creature cable of swinging to kill him.

Of course against non blue opponents hes pretty terrible, but you can certainly do worse than 3 power at flash speed.  I mean flusterstorm is completely useless against workshops, and is pretty bad against fish/dredge yet it still sees main deck play. 

Why not try a drain deck with him and a few Draw 7's?

With him out Timetwister reads Draw 14 cards, Mind Twist your opponent, Reshuffle all graveyards.  Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, same deal.  Heck with him out you can even get value out of things like Winds of Change.

He just seems like a massive beating against control but would need alot of support vs. Shops and Dredge.

If you have to play a 4 mana card and other inferior cards just to combo with it, you are better off playing Key-Vault or Painter combo instead.

A vault without a key does nothing, a key without a vault untaps a mana source, a grindstone without a painter mills a couple cards, and a painter without a stone blocks.  It becomes a completely different story when the cards that are a part of your combo actually do something on their own, see bomberman combo.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

A vault with out key does plenty.

[Samoht]

A vault with out key does plenty.

I couldn't agree more. So many players miss out on the several profitable interactions TV can have. For example, it's most obvious non-Key related usage is against Tangle Wire/Smokestack. Sometimes skipping a turn to take 2 is something that you want to do in these situations. Additionally, equally empty boards in which you have a TV and counters in hand is a good time to use the untap. That way, even if things happen and you need the turn it is there, but if you stick something powerful like Jace or Tinker you already have the turn you need. I've won several games this way.

edit: Also, having your own Mystic Remora out is another strong way to untap a Time Vault.

[gkraigher]

I don't really think in vintage rogues, but to each their own. 

I sleeved this deck up and it was bad.  Oh well, I tried.

I still like the card. 

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@samoht I personally love having vault in play in control match ups, trading low value turns for higher ones. just this week and opponent assembled key vault and activated it, so I tapped vault and then key vaulted him. i had untapped it earlier when I was fully untapped and had a million counters in had.

also, painter and grind stone do a lot on their own as well. the 1/3 of painter was particularly relevant when it saw a lot of play.
grand stone just eats library and turns of top deck tutors. At gencon, in the prelims,  last year I had an opponent vamp eot, I upkeep ground out his recall.
I've also definitely ground out opponents the hard way. If you played the deck a lot, you know when you can do it and when you can't on a turn by turn basis.

as far as notion thief goes, I've been testing it in a few shells and its definitely the worst part of the decks. it could be that its not in the right shell yet so I'll keep at it, but i'm not going to be at it much longer with these results. 4 is just too much mana, all the time so far.

[Charlie]

A painter without a stone enables all your REBs. Notion Thief+Draw 7s... It is hard to cast Draw 7s profitably these days unless you unload your hand turn 1.

[mmcgeach]

It seems like it's only good against blue, and therefore shines in the blue mirror.  But it costs 4.  So it conflicts with Jace; but it is an extremely efficient answer to Jace, having flash and 3-power.  It seems like some decks might want to cut a Jace and add one of these. 

Of course, playing him off caverns is interesting.  The esper bomberman that already names cavern on humans seems really good, which has already been mentioned.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

It seems like it's only good against blue, and therefore shines in the blue mirror.  But it costs 4.  So it conflicts with Jace; but it is an extremely efficient answer to Jace, having flash and 3-power.  It seems like some decks might want to cut a Jace and add one of these. 

Of course, playing him off caverns is interesting.  The esper bomberman that already names cavern on humans seems really good, which has already been mentioned.

I really wouldn't say it is an efficient answer to jace, at least in terms of mana cost. Compare it to current answers, v clique, reb, bolt...

[xouman]

Clique, bolt or reb kill jace if not countered, in most cases. Notion thief does not kill it right ahead, but you took out 2 cards of opponent's hand (wow) while you win 3. Thats 5 cards for 1, and next turn you can kill the jace if opponent has no untapped creatures. I have heard that ancestral wins matches. Misdirect an ancestral is a key play (you draw 3 cards at the cost of 2, and opponent loses 1. Just 2 cards of advantage, and it's said to be a lot).

Yes, it costs 4, but if opponent is playing a jace, he also has payed 4 and has probably little mana to counter it, other than fow. Notion thief with vendillions and other flash creatures like snapcasters seems great against control decks, but poor against oath or mud.

[Smmenen]

It seems like it's only good against blue,

This card should actually be insane agaisnt Dredge, provided you can play it early. 

[brianpk80]

It's a high variance card.  Because of its CC, you may miss the window where an opponent Ancestrals or gets a random blowout with a very early Tinker, Vault/Key/Tezzeret, or Oath of Druids.  And it's lacking in the Workshop match unless they're a 5C variant w. Ancestral or something w. Welders + Bazaar or one of the fringe cards that have a draw effect.  But not as dead as Flusterstorm/Misstep.  It's probably too slow to be relevant v. Dredge, but as Stephen noted, it's true that if you open with Lotus + Cavern/Land => Notion Thief, you'll draw two from their first Bazaar activation and you'll draw every time they use Bazaar without two Dredgers in the yard. 

So above are the cons.  The pros are that you probably win the game if the replacement effect occurs even once.  I wouldn't run it in a deck without Cavern of Souls though since that's what makes it viable. 

[Guli]

Clique, bolt or reb kill jace if not countered, in most cases. Notion thief does not kill it right ahead, but you took out 2 cards of opponent's hand (wow) while you win 3. Thats 5 cards for 1, and next turn you can kill the jace if opponent has no untapped creatures. I have heard that ancestral wins matches. Misdirect an ancestral is a key play (you draw 3 cards at the cost of 2, and opponent loses 1. Just 2 cards of advantage, and it's said to be a lot).

Yes, it costs 4, but if opponent is playing a jace, he also has payed 4 and has probably little mana to counter it, other than fow. Notion thief with vendillions and other flash creatures like snapcasters seems great against control decks, but poor against oath or mud.

Yes, this seems to be the problem that keeps coming back for most creature based decks. It is relatively easy to hate out blue control and blue combo. It is also relatively easy to hate out Oath, Dredge and Workshop. But Blue and Shop are like the North and South pole. Notion Thief is one of those cards that is expensive and dead against Shop, while being a bomb versus Blue decks. Theoretically, you could solve this by running Nobles and Dr. Shaman (both) to fight Workshop with mana dudes (push threats through spheres) and use these mana dudes to accelerate into your expensive Thief asap (to shut down any draw engine, the sooner the stronger).

Another idea I am working on is bring back Vial as an 'extreme' Workshop answer. I did this in the past, vial and 7 cats. I ran 4 Pridemage and 3 Relic-Warder with Dark Confidant support. Usually the games went like this: Golem beats me down to 10, then vial kicks in, and you control the game with Wastelands, Bobs, Cats and mana dudes. Seems to me this could work too, Vial and acceleration will also give you the option to use lands and mox for Thief, while you are still able to vial in your other, cheaper, creatures like Snapcaster or whatever you want to play. The problem is the mana base, how are you going to play the cats and thief. You could ahead and drop bob, this might work. Standstill is a natural draw engine with this Thief anyway, add in an Edric, and you don't need bob.

Other options are to run the cheap 1cc removal to control Workshop and use the removal on potential Bobs or whatever Blue is going to cast. You build up your mana and meanwhile Flash in creatures here and there. But this could be a trap you are setting up for yourself. Vial is a permanent that will keep you in the game, a swords to plowshares is welcome but you can't really ride on the back of that card for long.

It seems like it's only good against blue,

This card should actually be insane agaisnt Dredge, provided you can play it early.  

I think with a Jailer, Notion Thief is also insane. As long as you shut off the dredge mechanic, bazaar will be good for you, no digging for them (just discard).

[msg67183]

Wow I didn't even see the interaction with Jailer. I'm kind of afraid of this card for games 2 and 3 now lol.

Maybe I'll start packing Contagion on top of my 3 Darkblasts! Lol

[gkraigher]

Wow I didn't even see the interaction with Jailer. I'm kind of afraid of this card for games 2 and 3 now lol.

Maybe I'll start packing Contagion on top of my 3 Darkblasts! Lol

This is not the forum for my comment but, I do not understand why the current dredge shell doesn't run 4 maindeck darkblasts.  The fact that it is useful makes its inclusion over Golgari Thug seem obvious to me.

[Stormanimagus]

Wow I didn't even see the interaction with Jailer. I'm kind of afraid of this card for games 2 and 3 now lol.

Maybe I'll start packing Contagion on top of my 3 Darkblasts! Lol

This is not the forum for my comment but, I do not understand why the current dredge shell doesn't run 4 maindeck darkblasts.  The fact that it is useful makes its inclusion over Golgari Thug seem obvious to me.

The non-grave troll Thug versions actually use thug's ability to put chewers back on top of the lib. That, being a black creature for ichorid, and dredging 4 are the reasons that players run Thug over D-blast in some variants, but overall I agree that D-Blast is better.

-Storm

[Samoht]

Wow I didn't even see the interaction with Jailer. I'm kind of afraid of this card for games 2 and 3 now lol.

Maybe I'll start packing Contagion on top of my 3 Darkblasts! Lol

This is not the forum for my comment but, I do not understand why the current dredge shell doesn't run 4 maindeck darkblasts.  The fact that it is useful makes its inclusion over Golgari Thug seem obvious to me.

Thug is quite useful, as alluded to above. You also underestimate the potency of the man plan in g2+g3 in which you just attack your opponent to death with creatures.