Deck's nightmares

[xouman]

Sorry for the name of the post, I couldn't think of a proper name. This thread comes from the "Best of the best (aka Best of the rest)" thread opened short time ago, but I want to focus on another point. I don't want to be creative now, just find best cards or strategies against any deck. For example:

MUD
Best cards against MUD (hosing, not to lose): Ingot chewer, viashino heretic, pulverize, kataki, serenity.
Best cards to win MUD (offensive, win conditions): oath of druids, time vault
Best strategies against MUD: lots of basics/solid mana base, low mana costs, artifact destruction, cheap counterspells


This is just an example, and probably wrong since I don't play a lot and are not the best player understanding the game. However I would like to find which cards are good in any pairing. For example, bolt is ok against MUD, but it's among the best cards against MUD? Not in my experience, but I want to know your experience.

Which decks should be considered? MUD, dredge, Grixis, bomberman, BUG, Gush, landstill, burning oath, oath and tezzeret. those are 10 decks, quite a lot, but they all appear often in Tops. Feel free to add more decks

[Saya]

i suggest Veteran Explorer.It lets me search two lands with protection(wasteland) while opponent MUD can search nothing!

*modify:protection(artifact) -> protection(wasteland)*

[mmcgeach]

Good idea!  I love it.

So far, my best strategies against these decks are as follows.  I'd love to hear what other people have discovered works.

bomberman:
cards: pithing needle, mindbreak trap
strategy: guys with toughness > 2.  Needle and trap shut off the combo, then you just have to defend against overcosted bears.

landstill:
cards: pithing needle
strategy: (long game) basics, anything uncounterable.  (short game) win by turn 2 with storm, oath, etc.

storm / gush / doomsday / combo:
cards: mindbreak trap, mental misstep, mystic remora
strategy: mental misstep is great defense against duresses; trap or force of will can let you counter the critical play.

BUG / RUG:
cards: pithing needle, sower of temptation
strategy: (long game) pithing needle defends against wastelands, sower 3-for-1s their dudes if you can keep it in play.  (short game) BUG & RUG are weak to combo, if your deck can win by turn 2.

[xouman]

@Saya: Veteran explorer is an example of a card good in certain matchup (MUD) that can be key to win. Good idea, it would fit in the category of "Good against MUD" cards.

@mmcgeach: Pithing needle seems a fetish card for you isn't it? Indeed is a good card in those matchups, probably not the best but quite useful. In fact I kept getting trouble with bomberman, and pithing would help me. But more than revoker or null rod? ah, it depends on your deck.


Let's get more ideas and get a bigger list on how to focus each pairing and then build proper lists, or proper sideboards.

[mmcgeach]

Heh.  I do think pithing needle is absurdly good right now.  It helps that it comes in against workshops and dredge, so it's almost never dead (probably is dead against storm and blue control, tho), making it a really efficient use of sideboard space. 

I guess I'm coming from a perspective of a blue player where revoker and null rod can't be played (although, maybe revoker? seems suboptimal).  Although yeah, if you're playing no artifacts then null rod is way better against bomberman, but that's a pretty narrow list of archetypes (ie, just fish).

So, what's important here is to realize that your sideboard or answer cards depend on the shell or archetype you're running.  So that might have to be taken into consideration in some fashion.  Although, it's nice to have a list of the BEST cards against a deck (ie: stony silence against burning long), even if that best answer can't be run in most decks, it's instructive to think about what similar cards could be employed from a wider array of archetypes and how effective those might be (like going from null rod in fish to pithing needle in blue, it's not quite the blowout null rod is, but still lets you use your own moxes and vault).

[MaximumCDawg]

I once made a BW deck whose only purpose in life was to beat Shops.  It did.  Core of the deck was something like this:

4x Dark Confidant
4x Revoker
4x Porcelain Legionare
4x Leonin Relic-Warder
3x Tidehollow Sculler

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abolish

It was nice that everything I drew answered shops, and most answered golem

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Personaly I like the porcelain legionairre. It's proactive and offensive. It also dodges lodestone and thorn. It also bears 5/3s in a combat every time. Buys you time to make land drops

[xouman]

So up to now:

MUD
blue
white: Porcelain Legionare, Abolish, Swords to Plowshares, Leonin Relic-Warder,kataki, serenity.
black
red:Ingot chewer, viashino heretic, pulverize
green: veteran explorer, oath of druids
multicolored
artifacts:  time vault
lands: basic lands


Bomberman
blue: mindbreak trap?
artifacts:  pithing needle, null rod, phyrexian revoker


Landstill
artifacts:  pithing needle
lands: basic lands


storm / gush / doomsday / combo:
blue: mindbreak trap, mental misstep, mystic remora


BUG / RUG:
blue: sower of temptation
artifacts:pithing needle

[gkraigher]

So up to now:

MUD
blue
white: Porcelain Legionare, Abolish, Swords to Plowshares, Leonin Relic-Warder,kataki, serenity.
black
red:Ingot chewer, viashino heretic, pulverize
green: veteran explorer, oath of druids
multicolored
artifacts:  time vault
lands: basic lands

Not all of these cards are "nightmares" against mud.  They are all good yes, but the folllwings cards are not nightmares w/explanations. 

Swords to Plowshares is fair, but it is worse than Path to Exile.
Oath of Druids -- grafdigger's cage, phyrexian metamorph, and duplicant. 
Time Vault - Phyrexian Revoker
Viashino Heretic - Phyrexian Revoker ***Heretic is still very near a nightmare, but they do have an answer to him.   

On the other hand, Kataki and Serenity are absolute houses against MUD.  A better card than Kataki is Energy Flux.  Legendary creatures can be dealt with by metamorph, enchantments cannot.  Porcelain Legionnaire is also a house against MUD.  It stops nearly everything in its tracks. 

I also have a tough time saying 1 for 1 cards are "nightmares."  1 for 1 cards are always fair in my opinion, so while Ingot chewer, abolish, and relic warder are all very good vs. MUD, they seem fair. 

Nightmare cards to me are:
Porcelain Legionnaire
Energy Flux
Serenity
Kataki
Veteran Explorers
Viashino Heretic

[Saya]

Against MUD:Seeds of Innocence is also good very much. The problem is its cost;providing 1 is hard Unless G is main color of the deck.

Against Storms etc:never forget Flusterstorm.

[xouman]

We agree on this The idea is to find BEST cards against any archetype, independent on if they are used or even playable or not. Swords is not true hate, but could be considered on a second place. I just didn't want to discourage first people sharing ideas.

Energy flux, and shattering storm seem the best tools against MUD, speaking of raw power. Shattering storm is unplayable most of the time, so pulverize can deserve a place.Hidden guerrilla, nature's claim, seeds of innoncence. Viashino heretic, goblin welder, ingot chewer.


Against big blue: duress, thoughtseize, mystic remora, misstep, flusterstorm, dark confidant, jace, spheres, REBs, thalia, leonin arbiter, uba mask? null rod/stony silence?


dredge: leyline of the void, ravenous trap, grafdigger's cage, tormod's crypt, wheel of sun and moon, yixlid jailer, relic of progenitus, the new white enchantment, blood moon


fish: tinker, sower of temptation, ligthning bolt, swords to plowshares, tarmogoyf,wurmcoil engine, steel hellkite, oath of druids


tezz: null rod, revoker, viashino heretic, duress, tgz, stony silence


storm combo: misstep, mindbreak trap, flusterstorm, stifle/trinkbind, wastelands, null rod, stony silence, canonist, rune of law, arcane laboratory


oath: gradfdigger's cage, eon hub, true believer, Leyline of Sanctity, Witchbane Orb, duress/tgz, counterwall


bomberman: null rod, phyrexian revoker, spheres, stony silence, extirpate




Bonus: About energy flux, I lost a game playing it. My opponent played smokestacks, and coupled with no fuel on my part he could up it to 3, empty my board and survive just to draw lands before me. poor merfolks...

[Bibendum]

Grudge Is better then almost all the cards you named as a nightmare for mud. 2 for 1 cheap and dodge's the chalice 1 that claim doesn't get around

[gkraigher]

Grudge Is better then almost all the cards you named as a nightmare for mud. 2 for 1 cheap and dodge's the chalice 1 that claim doesn't get around

Yeap, grudge is a 2 for 1.  anything that is 2 for 1 should be considered tier 1.  

Goblin Welder is WAY to situational to be considered good against mud.  It can be good, but it is not always good. 

[evouga]

Shattering Spree is Tier 1 against shops. It is an X for 1, the copies dodge all cost increases, the copies are immune to Chalice, and at a single R per artifact, the price is right.

[Saya]

Shattering Spree is Tier 1 against shops. It is an X for 1, the copies dodge all cost increases, the copies are immune to Chalice, and at a single R per artifact, the price is right.

Spree is surely a good card against workshop,but not used frequently as tier 1.In this category tier 1 would be Hurkyl,Ingot,and Grudge.They are widely put in main board.

[StanleyAugust]

Shattering Spree is Tier 1 against shops. It is an X for 1, the copies dodge all cost increases, the copies are immune to Chalice, and at a single R per artifact, the price is right.

Spree is surely a good card against workshop,but not used frequently as tier 1.In this category tier 1 would be Hurkyl,Ingot,and Grudge.They are widely put in main board.

That's only because no one plays Nivmagus Elemental