Temporal Trespass

[JarofFortune]

I'm not saying it is absolutely correct to cut it, just that it is not out of the question.

I don't think you and I have been having remotely similar experiences with playing Delver decks in Vintage. I'd rather cut Ancestral Recall than Time Walk.

Do you often use walk in different ways than I described earlier? If there are applications of the card that I have missed or undervalued then I'd love to reconsider it.

I don't see the contradiction in Twiedel's statement. Delver's preferred role is control but it can exploit any opening in an opponent's defense to quickly kill with Pyromancers. It's kind of purpose-built for that, actually.

And if delver's control role is the preferred and therefore more common one, why use a slot on a blue explore in that case? Dig through time finds you counterspells, or Burn if you are beating them down.

Time Walk is the best card to achieve this role switch without compromising your controlling position. If an opponent deals with your token army, you still have Time Walk in your (stocked) graveyard to keep Cruising.

Literally any spell would fuel cruise in that case. A dig through time would also give you the option of protecting pyromancer. Both cards are countered by the same things.

Time Walk does not force you to overcommit - in fact, it can even help you establish a controlling position in the first place by allowing you to Gush and land drop while keeping your grave full.

Overcommitting was never an argument. Making land drops is a useful aspect of the card that I mentioned, but it is not critical to the deck. Though the statement that walk helps you gain control is true in this regard.

Again, I am not arguing that it is wrong for delver to play walk. I am saying that when it is a noncritical part of the deck, and arguments therefore can be made to support cutting it, I am skeptical that Trespass is good enough to make the cut in current delver lists. I have literally seen just as many responses to this argument that say I must be a bad player for even considering killing the Sacred Cow as responses that actually give thought out arguments. I'm open to being wrong on this topic, but that is not the point of this thread. The card we are discussing may have a few applications in Vintage, but when it competes for space with Dig and Cruise it requires an even more specific deck than it would otherwise. Additionally, a good baseline to measure this card with for those who do try it out is Time Warp. Is this card consistently better than Time Warp in your deck? 

If you really want access to Time Walk in Delver why not try Burning Wish? It fits the bill of being flexible enough to help you get into the control role, and then shifting quickly to aggro. Burning Wish needs careful building to fit into a "tempo" deck like Delver, which will separate skilled deckbuilders from poor ones.

I like this. Wish gives a lot of flexibility.

[enderfall]

I'm awfully surprised by how many people assume casting Time Walk (or Trespass, in this case) doesn't just win the game for Delver. If taking an extra turn is not winning the game for Delver, then you are doing it wrong. Period. Time Walk is not "Blue Explore" unless you kept a bad hand and need to take an extra turn early in the game just to catch up.

This entire discussion is quite compelling in the sense that Recall and Walk are two absurdly overpowered cards and the mere fact we are discussing them in context to "bad" Recall/Time Walk says something to the overall power level of all these Delve cards.

[JarofFortune]

I'm awfully surprised by how many people assume casting Time Walk (or Trespass, in this case) doesn't just win the game for Delver. If taking an extra turn is not winning the game for Delver, then you are doing it wrong. Period. Time Walk is not "Blue Explore" unless you kept a bad hand and need to take an extra turn early in the game just to catch up.

This entire discussion is quite compelling in the sense that Recall and Walk are two absurdly overpowered cards and the mere fact we are discussing them in context to "bad" Recall/Time Walk says something to the overall power level of all these Delve cards.

If you have an active pyromancer that you've protected, Walk is great, but you are probably very far ahead by that point. However, you only run 4 pyromancers . Walking with an insect in play is solid, but not amazing in most cases. I don't know where you get the notion that the delver deck is some overpowered juggernaut that only needs to resolve one Time Walk to get an insurmountable advantage over the opponent. Building off that, your first few statements are overly bold. You're not going into any more detail than "Walk is completely broken in delver and they will never lose if they resolve it unless they are bad". It's pretty much a rewording of what two posters int his thread have already said.

As for your second paragraph, I completely agree.   

[diopter]

Jar: valid points.

I guess what I was trying to say is that it is not incongrouous for a deck to want to play the control role while still abusing Time Walk. Delver is kind of a half-reverse, half-regular combo-control deck: it plays its threat early, then plays its control game; but still ends up kind of winning by default once it's drawn enough cards.

The exact cost-to-effect of the card Time Walk is very powerful in this shell.

---

Enderfall: the difference between Time Walk and Trespass is that a tempo-negative opposing play like tutoring for Pyroclasm is actually a decent play against the Trespass-playing player, while the Time Walker merely shrugs, draws 3 the next turn, and deploys another Pyromancer.

Delver's threats can be fragile; the secret is that the opponent is always behind in the resources that matter - real card advantage, virtual card advantage, effective mana (including Delve mana), board presence, etc.. What does DelveWalk do to emphasize this advantage?

[MisterFoote]

If you even had the thought that time walk is bad for delver you should be ashamed of yourself as a vintage player.  Go home.  You've been very bad.

Also, if this is where this thread is going, I think we are done here.

Timewalk bad for delver...these kind of comments are pushing people away from this forum.  No joke.

Maybe you should read the thread. No one said that Time Walk is bad, just that it is potentially cuttable from some delver lists. There's only so much room in a 60 card deck.   

To make my point short:

- Time Walk is very good in Delver, I wouldn't ever cut it
- Delver (as I personally understand it) is greatest when it's not the aggro deck

Do you see the contradiction in these statements? If you aren't the aggro deck, what is walk doing for you in Delver outside of marginal advantages on a cycler? I would never cut walk in something like a Combo Control Deck or a gush storm deck, but those can abuse the effect with Bob, Oath, Jace, Regrowth, etc.

So, jamming more Delvewalks into the deck makes creatures a lot more important for you. Walking without a creature does often nothing at all in the later turns (you have no more lands to play, and UUU would soak up all your mana). That would lead to trying to keep the creatures alive, which is nothing I ever want to do unless I have lethal on the board.

-> This doesn't fit my idea of a Delver deck and not my playstyle at all.

This is exactly what I mean when I say Walk is not a necessity in these lists. So far I haven't heard anything other than that Time Walk is Power so it is never cuttable.

I feel like for you to honestly believe this is true, you either have to be playing the card or the deck wrong.  How you are currently playing time walk?  Do you play it ASAP?  Or do you wait until a good opportunity for it?  Its a much more difficult card to time and sequence correctly than most of the other power cards.

Like most cards, it depends not the situation. If I need the land drop pre or post gush, I'll use it early. If I have a Dack in hand or the potential to get in a racing situation I'll hold it for sure. Over half the time, however, when I have no board or nothing better than a delver and don't need the three damage more than a blue card, I'll pitch it to Force. I'd miss it in the Merfolk Matchup, but it's not as if many people are playing that deck at the moment. It has a few more uses against Oath, especially g1, but it is far from a necessity in my experience, especially in postbord games if you are prepared.

I'm not saying it is absolutely correct to cut it, just that it is not out of the question. I don't think walk is a bad card at all, the bar is simply high.

I again will reiterate.  People are leaving this forum because of this.  Keep posting walls of text with little to no substance. 

[gkraigher]

I again will reiterate.  People are leaving this forum because of this.  Keep posting walls of text with little to no substance. 

I disagree, I left this forum when I read the text on the card. 

[vaughnbros]

Over half the time, however, when I have no board or nothing better than a delver and don't need the three damage more than a blue card, I'll pitch it to Force.

This made me cringe.  Time walk should be one of the last cards you are pitching to force.  I don't really see how nothing better to do than getting 3 damage and replacing itself for 0 mana is a real argument, but somehow peek at sorcery speed (gitaxian probe) is a better late game top deck?  Time walk's power level is highly dependent on when you play it.  Far more so than other cards.  However, this doesn't really matter.  Worst case time walk is 0 mana draw a card.  Best case?  Win the game.

[The Atog Lord]

I'm pretty sure we're just being trolled at this point.

[vaughnbros]

I'm pretty sure we're just being trolled at this point.

I was just thinking that while writing that last post.

[JarofFortune]

I again will reiterate.  People are leaving this forum because of this.  Keep posting walls of text with little to no substance.  

Since you've completely ignored everything I said and done nothing but call me an idiot, I'm gonna stop replying to you because you're obviously trolling. And you're certainly one to talk about posts with little to no substance.

I'm pretty sure we're just being trolled at this point.

I was just thinking that while writing that last post.

Why? I feel I am being trolled by multiple people. In fact, this thread seems to have become completely derailed. I've stated my stance on this card multiple times in the last several posts; my Time Walk comments were given as context and further examples of my position.

I have no hard feelings towards anyone in this thread, but it is frustrating to see people forget the point of this thread:the evaluation of a newly spoiled card.

[Samoht]

I again will reiterate.  People are leaving this forum because of this.  Keep posting walls of text with little to no substance.  

Since you've completely ignored everything I said and done nothing but call me an idiot, I'm gonna stop replying to you because you're obviously trolling. And you're certainly one to talk about posts with little to no substance.

I'm pretty sure we're just being trolled at this point.

I was just thinking that while writing that last post.

Why? I feel I am being trolled by multiple people. In fact, this thread seems to have become completely derailed. I've stated my stance on this card multiple times in the last several posts; my Time Walk comments were given as context and further examples of my position.

I have no hard feelings towards anyone in this thread, but it is frustrating to see people forget the point of this thread:the evaluation of a newly spoiled card.

Time Walk is by far the best card in Delver. The deck is designed to leverage tempo, in the form of cheap and efficient creatures and cheap counters and removal to get them through. The amount of times that Delver has turned 5 damage into 11+ Bolt(s) to close games the turn before the opposition can turn it around via Time Walk greatly outnumbers any other card in their decks power level. I think you are either misusing your TW or have weird outliers stacking up and coloring your perception.

[MisterFoote]

I again will reiterate.  People are leaving this forum because of this.  Keep posting walls of text with little to no substance.  

Since you've completely ignored everything I said and done nothing but call me an idiot, I'm gonna stop replying to you because you're obviously trolling. And you're certainly one to talk about posts with little to no substance.

I'm pretty sure we're just being trolled at this point.

I was just thinking that while writing that last post.

Why? I feel I am being trolled by multiple people. In fact, this thread seems to have become completely derailed. I've stated my stance on this card multiple times in the last several posts; my Time Walk comments were given as context and further examples of my position.

I have no hard feelings towards anyone in this thread, but it is frustrating to see people forget the point of this thread:the evaluation of a newly spoiled card.

Remember that part where I said go home?  Its because no one wants to play with you.  I never called anyone a childish name.  I simply pointed out that the base that you built your argument on is wrong, therefore so is everything else you had to say here.  You clearly have no idea the level of input you are not only receiving, but also missing.  So say less.  Think more.  Go spew your garbage somewhere else.  Ill fight trolls until the very end.  For I am Thrun.  I hope this gets enough attention to have you banned.  However, most of the mods minus our beloved Atog Lord have deemed it not worth their time.  Stop killing what was once a decent forum.  You simply don't get to say time walk is cuttable.  Its that simple.  If you play blue you play time walk.  If you continue to see it your way than you should never come back here again.  You have nothing to contribute.  If you want to be taken seriously as a vintage player you will accept this truth. 

[Hrishi]

You simply don't get to say time walk is cuttable.  Its that simple.  If you play blue you play time walk.  If you continue to see it your way than you should never come back here again.  You have nothing to contribute.  If you want to be taken seriously as a vintage player you will accept this truth. 

I have nothing to say on this thread, but let's not get too ridiculous here. Every card is potentially cuttable. Doomsday does not play Time Walk sometimes, and it's certainly a blue deck for example.

[The Atog Lord]

Delver and Doomsday are different. Delver is more predicated attacking, while Doomsday is not.

That said, I would not cut Timewalk even from Doomsday. In Game I, Timewalk is at its absolute worst a free cantrip. I realize that there are many cards competing for space in Doomsday, but I view failure to play Timewalk very much like adding a 61st card. It will not haunt you very often, but it is still wrong and undisciplined.

On the other hand, after sideboarding, Doomsday becomes a deck keenly interested in attacking -- specifically, in attacking with an Insect. The presence of Xantid Swarm in the sideboard of most Doomsday builds is a further strong reason to include that timeworn member of the Power Nine even in the combo deck of Doomsday.

[MisterFoote]

You simply don't get to say time walk is cuttable.  Its that simple.  If you play blue you play time walk.  If you continue to see it your way than you should never come back here again.  You have nothing to contribute.  If you want to be taken seriously as a vintage player you will accept this truth.  

I have nothing to say on this thread, but let's not get too ridiculous here. Every card is potentially cuttable. Doomsday does not play Time Walk sometimes, and it's certainly a blue deck for example.

This is a good point.  However, there is an exception to every rule.  The point is that this character hiding behind his screen name is flat out trolling this thread.  Most of know who each other are or know someone who does.  We are a small community of players.  We want to grow.  Sometimes you have to spank your kids.  

Edit: to be clear this is not a slight, but a metaphor.  I want us all to be better.  I get spanked a lot.

[WhiteLotus]

Some decks just aren't able to abuse Time walk as well as others, it is usually at it's best when it gets value out of creatures, planeswalkers or cards like library.
Time walk is definitely cuttable in certain decks or rather not cuttable but is too situational to be worth a slot.
That being said I think everyone will agree that Timewalk is one of the best cards in Delver decks and auto include as sure as Ancestral Recall.

To get back to the topic, I don't think delver (or any other current vintage deck for that matter) will play Trespass because of the UUU + delve 8 part. Treasure cruise and Dig through time are directly competing with it, if Trespass had been the same cmc it would be worthy of debate but as is I just don't see it. I am far more excited by Monastery Mentor which is going to be the next big thing.

[The Atog Lord]

I'm not convinced that Trespass will be any good in Delver decks. I am, however, pretty convinced that it is worth trying. I'll probably add a single copy to Delver. I think Fire/Ice is the best candidate. Then, if it's bad, I'll cut it. If it's amazing, I'll try a second copy. If it's fine but not great, I'll keep trying the one copy and see if it is better or worse than another removal spell.

[MisterFoote]

I still keep a miser snapcaster around, So I'm not sure I will actually run it.  But it will be tested to great lengths, in many archetypes.  That is something we can all agree on for sure.

[WhiteLotus]

I still keep a miser snapcaster around, So I'm not sure I will actually run it.  But it will be tested to great lengths, in many archetypes.  That is something we can all agree on for sure.

Which archetypes are you referring to?

Delver? UUU and needs active pyromancer = it probably already won or would rather just cast cruise for one u and keep a counterwall up.
Oath? Needs Griselbrand = it already won.
Tinker decks? need to tap uuu and delve 8 do get additional value out of walkers, library or tinker bot = win more. And same thing as delver, could easily just cast cruise to have a counterwall up or dig to find an answer or combo piece and not commit during it's turn.
 Storm? already eschews time walk a lot of the time, so no way it wants trepass.
Merfolk? can't cast it off cavern so uuu will be very hard and merfolks is bad at enabling delve.
Landstill? some lists have eshewed time walk, so no way they want trespass.
Bomberman? same thing as tinker decks.
Dredge? would be happy to have it if it could pay the UUU part but it can't. 

[MisterFoote]

I still keep a miser snapcaster around, So I'm not sure I will actually run it.  But it will be tested to great lengths, in many archetypes.  That is something we can all agree on for sure.

Which archetypes are you referring to?

Delver? UUU and needs active pyromancer = it probably already won or would rather just cast cruise for one u and keep a counterwall up.
Oath? Needs Griselbrand = it already won.
Tinker decks? need to tap uuu and delve 8 do get additional value out of walkers, library or tinker bot = win more. And same thing as delver, could easily just cast cruise to have a counterwall up or dig to find an answer or combo piece and not commit during it's turn.
 Storm? already eschews time walk a lot of the time, so no way it wants trepass.
Merfolk? can't cast it off cavern so uuu will be very hard and merfolks is bad at enabling delve.
Landstill? some lists have eshewed time walk, so no way they want trespass.
Bomberman? same thing as tinker decks.
Dredge? would be happy to have it if it could pay the UUU part but it can't.  

This show is over pal.

Edit: unless there is something that hasnt been covered.

[enderfall]

Delver? UUU and needs active pyromancer = it probably already won or would rather just cast cruise for one u and keep a counterwall up.

And what happens when that Cruise misses and draws you 2 mana sources and a worthless Delver? Time walk would've won the game... This is a very real situation in Delver decks that I've come across both playing with and against the deck. Once you have a board presence, Trespass is way better than Cruise.

[WhiteLotus]

Delver? UUU and needs active pyromancer = it probably already won or would rather just cast cruise for one u and keep a counterwall up.

And what happens when that Cruise misses and draws you 2 mana sources and a worthless Delver? Time walk would've won the game... This is a very real situation in Delver decks that I've come across both playing with and against the deck. Once you have a board presence, Trespass is way better than Cruise.

The scenarios you described are nice but they are highly unrealistic, while cruise can def be punished by variance drawing 3 blanks is highly unlikely. And you having uuu to tap with backup during your turn seems almost comical.

 Let me put it this way, if trespass cost only colored mana I don't think it would be playable. Time walk is good because of it's low investment cost so you can actually do other stuff during your turn where a card like time warp provides little to no benefit because it tied down all your mana available for the turn. Walk is also good because it's an easy early game play. Trespass sucks at these things in comparison.

 Trespass seems good at only one thing: Sealing the deal while you already have the advantage. So you are going to play a card that does absolutely does nothing on it's own and requires a tremendous amount of resources and set up to be good?  Might as well just be hardcasting Thought Relection with active jace at that point.

I still keep a miser snapcaster around, So I'm not sure I will actually run it.  But it will be tested to great lengths, in many archetypes.  That is something we can all agree on for sure.

Which archetypes are you referring to?

Delver? UUU and needs active pyromancer = it probably already won or would rather just cast cruise for one u and keep a counterwall up.
Oath? Needs Griselbrand = it already won.
Tinker decks? need to tap uuu and delve 8 do get additional value out of walkers, library or tinker bot = win more. And same thing as delver, could easily just cast cruise to have a counterwall up or dig to find an answer or combo piece and not commit during it's turn.
 Storm? already eschews time walk a lot of the time, so no way it wants trepass.
Merfolk? can't cast it off cavern so uuu will be very hard and merfolks is bad at enabling delve.
Landstill? some lists have eshewed time walk, so no way they want trespass.
Bomberman? same thing as tinker decks.
Dredge? would be happy to have it if it could pay the UUU part but it can't. 

This show is over pal.

Edit: unless there is something that hasnt been covered.

how am I your "pal", how is this a show?

[enderfall]

The scenarios you described are nice but they are highly unrealistic, while cruise can def be punished by variance drawing 3 blanks is highly unlikely

It happens enough of a non-zero amount to mean something when taking an extra turn is more likely to win the game. Clearly, you don't play with Delver otherwise you'd know how often Cruise can miss. Is it 25% of the time? No, but it's way more than zero. Once Delver gets a board presence, preferably with Pyromancer and some tokens, taking an extra turn is far more valuable than drawing 3 random cards while giving your opponent more chances to get back into the game, and it's not really close.

And for crying out loud, NOBODY is saying Trespass is a good as Time Walk. What's next, are you going to say that Treasure Cruise isn't as good as Recall? What are you trying to prove anymore?

[Protoaddict]

The more draw you play in your delver deck, the more likely you are to just draw more draw cards instead of action cards. There is a limit on how much draw is too much, which is why you want to maximize the most efficient ones.

Now I don't know where that line is myself, but i do know that when I hit the line, i would much rather have a timewalk than another draw card.

Dead cards off a treasure cruise include, situationally of course:
Lands
Delvers
Pyromancers
Pyroblast in non blue matchups (if maindeck)
More Cruises without enough yard or when they have hate online
too many gushes all at once

All very real things that can happen

[ApolloGod]

I'd like to specifically look at Delver decks (although I think Trespass can find a home in other viable decks).

I'll use a metric that I'll refer to as "graveyard value." Consider the following two antithetical scenarios:

1.) A graveyard with 8 fetchlands (highly unlikely.) This graveyard has a low value.
2.) A graveyard with 8 cards that are a mix of burn/cantrip/creature (killed or discarded, or whatever.) This graveyard has a much higher value than the first scenario because a.) the presence of burn/cantrip means that you should have some card advantage, board advantage, virtual advantage, etc., and b.) you've cast meaningful spells that have impacted the game state and have brought you closer to your endgame (i.e., critical mass in Delver/pyromancer)

I think Trespass is very good when your graveyard has high value. If you would have cast a Time Walk in that scenario, but you instead only have Trespass, then Trespass is just as good because your extra turn will probably win you the game. Remember that a high-value graveyard means that you probably have an established board presence and have impacted the game state in a positive way. If a Delver player only needs to Time Walk and win, Trespass will serve the exact purpose and both spells would have equal value when the graveyard is high value.

Let's look at a scenario when you have some number of cards in hand that include both a Treasure Cruise and either Trespass or Time Walk. If you Cruise, then the value of your graveyard is depleted and the value of Trespass is also lowered. A turn that is Cruise + Trespass is very resource intensive and also implies a late game line of play (UUUU + 15 cards in your graveyard.) If you have all of those resources available then the game is long and the extra cards would have more value than the extra turn, further depleting the value of Trespass. If, however, you have Cruise + Time Walk in hand, the value of Time Walk is just as strong as if the graveyard had low value, and its value is not depleted by Cruising first.

I would propose running 3 or 4 Cruise + Time Walk + 1 Trespass and cutting another delve card somewhere (DTT if a build is using it, or Cruise if the build has 4.)