Sphinx Tribal

[mmcgeach]

Thats a fascinating perspective, ChubbyRain.  Thanks for the testing!

I basically agree that there's another way to go within this framework, which is to drop Show and Tell for Mana Drain.  I'd suggest something like:

-3 show and tell, -2 ancient tomb  --> +4 mana drain, +1 fetch

Which basically gives the more-controlling version, similar to your list.  And, further, if you drop the ancient tombs, then I think you probably drop some chalices since the plan probably revolves less around a turn-1 chalice@1.  But then if you're giving up on chalice, you might want some number of missteps.  In this case, I'd broadly suggest:

-3 show and tell --> +3 mana drain
-2 ancient tomb --> +1 fetch, +1 trinket mage
-3 chalice of the void --> +2 missteps, +1 sensei's top
(leaving 1 chalice maindeck)

that also frees up the arcane denial slot for something (tinker bot, or additional trinket mage artifact; EE maybe) and the lim-dul's vault can go back to a vampiric tutor.

I think that's basically the other major way to develop this archetype.  It's a way that probably has less game against traditional delver lists, but probably more against, say, Oath.

I also briefly considered impulse; It's interesting you found it good!  that's pretty cool, I dunno if impulse has been played much lately -- obviously its good in a mana drain list where the goal is to have UU open during the opponent's turn for drain; but then EOT impulse is good if they don't play something you need to counter.

Also I'm tempted by the white version; I had initially tried that, because I wanted to be able to hard-cast sphinx of the steel wind and elesh norn if I really had to.  But, I had trouble with shops w/o ingot chewer and my god, I can't drop Dack Fayden.  That guy is just so good.  Although, I suppose, Jace is a decent replacement if you can't splash red for Dack.    I will say containment priest is a pretty tempting sideboard option.

[Chubby Rain]

I actually like the control shell a bit more against Shops...Mana Drain in particular is great combined with the basic Islands for getting ahead of their Spheres. Jace is also an excellent win condition against shops, though it does require using all his abilities at the right times along with managing Revokers and Factories in particular. If you are going to run DTT, I would want some sort of cantrip to help fuel delve and I thought Impulse was the best available for 2 mana though you could also try Telling Time. I would like to work on this shell a little bit more and will try to post more results in the future. Again, many props for your innovative take on Blue control.

[serracollector]

As I suggested earlier in this thread another route to take that I have found works well is four Lotus Cobra and Drains. This still allows multiple colors with less fear of mana screw and lets an untapped fetch turn into a drain or abrupt decay. I also ran Metamorph tho which was amazing on either Cobra or any Sphinx. Running a few extra fetches to fuel Cobra doesnt hurt delve either.

[desolutionist]

It's difficult to know how many Mental Missteps are in your opponent's hands, but have you felt your lack of 1 drops to have any advantageous effect overall?

Have you experimented with sideboarding 1 drops?

[xouman]

When playing COTV, reducing as much as possible CC1 or CC2 are normally a good idea. I loved to put a CC2 prior to Decay, lots of deck had a real trouble.

[mmcgeach]

Yeah.  I mostly land Chalice@1 and (it almost always just resolves) then watch my opponents discard swords to plowshares and pitch missteps to forces.  I just run ancestral, sol ring, and voltaic key so the opposing missteps are pretty dead; but on the other hand, I basically never get to resolve ancestral.  It seems like Chalice@1 typically ranges from "somewhat annoying" to "significant impediment" for my opponents; but it rarely just locks people out unless they're on Delver.  The decks that are seriously impeded by Chalice@1 usually deal with it eventually with disenchant, hurkyls, abrupt decay, ancient grudge, etc.  Although, if I know that's their plan it's sort of amusing to also play Chalice@2; but if I'm in a position to do that, its usually a win-more play, where basically any threat would be decisive.

I really do like to see all the dead opposing missteps.  That's pretty awesome.  Also, when my shops opponent does chalice@1 on the play against me; that makes me smile.  OTOH, its rough to build the deck around 2+ and 3+ CMC spells; particularly the lack of filtering.  Its possible a bunch of Impulse would be really good.

[desolutionist]

I didn't suggest it before because I thought Sphinx was your draw engine, but how about Ancestral Vision?  Or since you have Ancient Tombs, Compulsive Research seems reasonable

[Chubby Rain]

I didn't suggest it before because I thought Sphinx was your draw engine, but how about Ancestral Vision?  Or since you have Ancient Tombs, Compulsive Research seems reasonable

I tested Ancestral Visions for a bit and it was pretty awkward. Chalice Zero hits it and drawing it at the wrong time or in multiples can lose you the game. Compulsive Research is interesting - I kind of want to run it just to target my opponent with Thief or Sphinx in play.

[mmcgeach]

Lol, I didn't realize compulsive research targets.  That certainly helps the case for that; but is it better than gifts? thirst?  fact or fiction?  It is the right spot on the curve and "an extra land in hand" is this deck's middle name.  But, still, tapping out mainphase for this seems like a weak play.

[mmcgeach]

This deck was built to defeat Delver; it needs a bit of an update to beat mentor.  Also the oath matchup is sub-par.  But, this deck still does pretty well in the current meta game.  It basically auto-wins against shops, delver is still played and that matchup is still great, it's fantastic against combo and control (and combo/control), and mentor decks are slower than delver decks so that weakens them a little bit.

Here's an updated list with the changes annotated.

creatures:
3 trinket mage
3 consecrate sphinx
1 notion thief
1 steel hellkite

disruption:
4 chalice of the void
1 trinisphere
4 force of will
1 flusterstorm
1 arcane denial

card draw & filtering:
3 dack fayden
2 jace the mindsculptor
1 thirst for knowledge
1 demonic tutor
1 lim-dul's vault
1 gifts ungiven
1 ancestral recall

win-cons
1 yawgmoth's will
1 time walk
1 tinker
1 time vault
1 voltaic key
1 timetwister

mana base:
2 ancient tomb
2 cavern of souls
1 library alexandria
1 tolarian academy
4 scalding tarn
1 polluted delta
2 underground sea
2 volcanic island
2 island
5 moxes
1 lotus
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt

sideboard:
3 ingot chewer
2 hurkyl's recall
1 mountain
2 sulfur elemental
1 notion thief
1 echoing truth
4 leyline of the void
1 tormod's crypt


updates:
steel hellkite as the tinker bot: It's probably the best one against mentors.  It's easily hard-castable.  The main drawback is that it dies to removal (like StP, etc), but with a chalice@1 in play it's pretty good.  I sort of think the tinkerbot is ALMOST not worth having; but then, I miss it when I cut it.

maindeck trinisphere: this card is just awesome.  I've lost a couple games now where I have chalice@0, chalice@1, and chalice@2, and my opponent plays a mentor then throws spells into the chalices for the win.  Trinisphere stops that kind of crap, and also shuts down every deck except shops.

no show & tell: generally just not needed.  The manabase and trinket mages can accelerate into a sphinx just fine; and show and tell is always a little bit risky.

jace & dack: i feel like most blue vs. blue matchups come down to who lands the first Dack.  Jace is also awesome, and here mostly for his bounce as a way to deal with a troublesome resolved creature.  The manabase and acceleration package helps get a Jace down early, which is huge in a number of matchups.

timetwister: this is essentially a combo with sphinx or notion thief that lets you assemble vault-key.  Also if you have to give your opponent a new hand, playing chalice@0 can stop them from going nuts with it.

sideboard: the sulfur elementals are a necessary out to the mentors.  Maybe 4 leyline should be 4 grafdigger's cage, which is probably worse overall against dredge but better against oath.

[Dessyreqt]

I took this list to my last Vintage event and went 3-1... Unfortunately I forgot to board in Tormod's Crypt vs. Dredge!

This is a pretty fun list, and very solid. The more I play the more I like it. Unfortunately I don't have any more constructive feedback on it just yet.

[GrimLavamancerBeats]

Have you playtested the new sphinx from oath? It could be a solid finisher. What changes would you make with the Chalice restrictions? Does the changing of shops style decks influence this decks viability?

[mmcgeach]

Interesting questions.  I don't know if the new uncounterable-sphinx is really worth it.  I mean, sure, it'd be great if that was in play alongside a conscecrated sphinx, but, you know, that scenario is a little silly.

I think the best replacement for chalice@1 is sphere of resistance.  It's probably the closest thing to slowing down a lot of 1-CC cards.  So, I'd test something like:


3 chalice ---> 3 sphere of resistance
1 lim-dul's vault ---> vampiric tutor
1 steel hellkite ---> sphinx of the steel wind

those are the changes that I'd suggest to deal with the chalice restriction.

I think ATM shops is probably the best deck, so I'd also do something like:

1 gifts ungiven ---> rebuild
1 cavern of souls ---> sensei's top

and then I'd try to fit in a toxic deluge or engineered explosives, possibly by cutting a Consecrated Sphinx.  So that reduces the combo cards and the counterspell protection slightly while giving an out to shops and more cantrips.  Incidentally, playing this list with 2 tops would probably be a decent call, too.

This deck always was awesome against shops.  I haven't played it against the aggro-shops lists en vogue now, but those lists are traditionally terrible against vault-key.  Playing Sphinx Tribal now to combat the shops meta might be a good idea.  Especially if you think the 2nd most common deck is Storm... there's enough disruption left to stop a storm deck.  I'd side in the leylines of the void against Dark Petition storm; those decks are *really* hurt by leyline.

[GrimLavamancerBeats]

That makes sense, I kind of just really wanted to jam it because Sphinx and all that jazz. So you would mainboard a Toxic Deluge? That seems fairly effective, against both Aggro Shops and Mentor. How often do you find yourself casting Sphinx of the Steel Wind? I can't seem to get it to hit the field unless I show and tell it.

[mmcgeach]

Well, yeah, I'd get a toxic deluge in there somehow.  If you running show and tells then prob keep the 3 + 1 sphinxes.

Usually I can't cast the sphinx of the steel wind; although its possible with lotus for white.  Mostly it's there as the tinker target.  I'd prioritize tinkering like this:

1) is it early game and I'm not playing against shops?  tinker for trinisphere.
2) does tinkering for vault or key immediately take all the turns?  Do that.
3) do I think my opponent only has green/red answers for an artifact, or is playing shops?  tinker for Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

If you keep at it, let me know how it goes!  I'm interested to hear your results. 

[GrimLavamancerBeats]

For some odd reason I have never tinkered up Steel Wind, I have no idea why, I always try to jam Vault haha. I just played a few games with the Spheres and Im really liking them so far but I'll definitely run a few more matches. I really enjoy this deck so far.