Ub Finkel

[FeverDog]

Whoo! I cant tell you guys how psyched i am about this site, it feels like home already. Anyway, here is my Ub Finkel deck i have been working on, its geared more to beat aggro (because thats what i expect) but i think i definetly have a shot vs control. Tell me what you think guys.

//NAME: Finkeltron

        4 Powder Keg

        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Skeletal Scrying
        2 Diabolic Edict

        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Capsize
        2 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
        4 Counterspell
        4 Mana Leak

        2 Morphling
        4 Shadowmage Infiltrator

        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Wasteland
        4 Underground River
        4 Underground Sea
        2 Swamp
        11 Island

SB:  1 Mana Short
SB:  4 Gainsay
SB:  4 Hydroblast
SB:  1 Morphling
SB:  1 Zuran Orb
SB:  2 Duress
SB:  2 Diabolic Edict

[Green Knight]

It looks pretty solid, I would run a disk in the SB because what do you do if a CoP:blue resolves...actually you do have the capsize.
Do you really think the Shadowmage is that much better than Ophidian (spelling?), I guess he can beat and earn you card advantage vs. creatures though thanks to the "fear" factor.
You may also be able to fit a B2B in the SB w/ all of the basic land, this could be good surprise factor vs. 5CC.

[Siral]

Finkel is not a good choice in type 1 for me.

1) Artifact or Black Creatures are around. Think about Mishra, Hyppie, Scuta, Juzam, Spiritmonger, Su-Chi, Masticore, Negators, Jade Statue and some others

2) Ophidian is easier to cast with the single colored mana in casting cost and a mana drain helps a lot in this purpose.

3) Cop: Blue prevents Finkel damage and dont let draw the card. Ophidian ability is about the declare of one block or not.

Mana Leak is a suboptimal choice 'cause i don see mox in your deck so the possibilty to use mana leak on first turn are not common and so i prefer counterspell in those slots.

ARGHH i dont see Stroke of Genius.........maybe is better to find a spot for it  maybe cut 1 island 24 lands are a little too much.

[KandyKid]

I heard that TimeWalk, TimeTwister and Ancestral Recall are pretty good   Wanna give them a try?? also, some moxes would make it faster and stronger, that is if you have any.

Oh, give merchant scroll a try, its been good to me

[FeverDog]

Guys, i thought it was obvious by my decklist that i dont own any power, the Lotus is in there cuz i can borrow it if i need to. I also dont own Drains (that will teach me to copy/paste) so those slots are Counterspells already which means Mana Leak is the next best counter.

About Finkel: Its not that i built a deck around him, but if you are gonna play Ub Phid than theres no reason not to run Finkel. CoP: Blue? Are you kidding? I have never seen anyone run that, and worst-case i can always counter it. Also, you have to realize that Finkel will be unblockable in at least 50% of your matches, thats good enough for me.

[Zherbus]

I really feel you need more acceleration. I might be tempted to test a grim monolith in this deck. I just dont have it in me to suggest Mox Diamond.

Also, I really...REALLY like duress. I think a few should try to squeeze in main deck. Or at least -2 gainsay +2 duress in the SB.

[PsychoCid]

I guess given your limitations and thus total lack of speed, there isn't much you can do.  Impulse would be nice, here, given that you are lower on drawing than most control decks, so card quality would help.  I think you can drop a Keg, a counter, and a land, at the least.  If you're one of those anti-Impulse people, I think that due to the double edict and maindeck capsize, you can still drop a Keg to give you room for anything else you might want in.

btw, you don't want a Merchant Scroll unless you sport an Ancestral.\n\n

[riverboa11]

Maybe you could make it more of an aggressive deck by adding some Mishra's.

If you do that, you could even go as far as running a Response or two.

I ran a deck similar to this a couple of months ago, and I ran both the Factories and the Responses and it worked out great.  They are at least worth a try.

[hippie tourach]

Yes, I ran a variation of the deck riverboa speaks of, and it wasn't too bad

If you have too many problems with enchantments with this deck, you might try Recoil...    

You are running a lot of counterspells, especially if you'll be drawing twice per turn, so you could change those Mana Leaks to diversify the deck a bit.

[the phoenix]

So this is where my Finkels are going!

I'll start with the mana base, where any good (and therefore paranoid) control player would start.  One of those swamps wants to become and Undiscovered Paradise and, seeing as how you run so many basic land, I'd seriously consider boarding B2B.

You need at least 1 Merchant Scroll. Seeing as how you don't have an Ancestral Recall and that Scroll and Mystical Tutor have roughly the same effect, I'd swap them. Have you considered Chainer's over Diabolic? Since you're not running Zorb (which I agree with), I'd run Stroke and even Geyser before Skeletal Scrying.

And the name neads some serious work. The "tron" part is too techy for me but, if you really want to use it, at least make it so that it rolls off your tongue -> Finklatron

We need to playtest, but I might be going away this weekend. I'll drop you a line when I know what's happening.

EDIT: And you're running a solid # of counters, IMO.

[FeverDog]

@Zherb: I really like Duress too and i have tested it in the deck before but it just didnt work as well as the Leaks do. I still like a pair in the side but not main.

@Psycho: I like Impulse but there just isnt any room for it in the deck and every time i try dropping to 26 mana my deck bitch-slaps me (i am aware Impulse helps with mana-consistency).

@Pheonix: Yes, this is where your Finkels are going. Seeing as how im only running 2 colors i dont really see the need for an UP unless i run B2B in the side (which is a good idea), i will have to see about that. I havent actually tested Chainers but every time i draw an Edict i ask myself if i would have prefered Diabolic or Chainers and so far its the former rather than the latter. As for Merchant Scroll over  Mystical, i dont run Ancestral so the only thing it fetches is Capsize, FoF and counters. I like that the Mystical can get me Edict, Scrying or Twist.

Note: The sb i posted is just off the top of my head and hasnt really been tested yet, hopefully i will be able to playtest some more in the coming weeks.

[FeverDog]

I would just like to ask everyone a question. We all agree that MonoU Phid is a top deck and most would also agree that Ur is very solid as well, but why is it that hardly anyone has tried Ub? After all, in T1, black gives you some incredibly powerful cards, you dont even have to run Finkel if you dont like him but Mind Twist, Demonic, Yawg Will, Edict and even Scrying(underrated) are all excellent cards.

Also, what do you guys think about possibly boarding Negators against control?

[the phoenix]

Well I can't speak for everyone, but I'll give my opinion.

Splashing red allows the use of Fire/Ice, an amazing card as you know. With black, you're forced to stick with Keg which, in many situations, you would rather not have in hand/play. Splashing red lets you keep B2B in the form of Blood Moon. Splashing black (fully powered, that is) doesn't.

Abyss, one of black's major strenghs, doesn't fit in the deck. The deck is monotonous and has Impulse as an option, meaning that black's search isn't as effective as in, say, keeper. Red offers such sideboard options as REB, FtK, and Pyroclasm; black doesn't (although Negator is certainly interesting). Finkel is only a minor imporvment on Phid and isn't worth switching the splash from red to black for.

On the flip side, of course, if offers Yagmoth's Broken Will, Mind Twist, and a few other cards.

Is it worth it? IMO, no. Then again, U/r Phid *is* my favourtie deck at the moment.

[Milton]

I would say that Ophidian is a superior card choice in this case.  Sure, you may never see a COP Blue, but I have a nice COP Black in my board that would definately come in against you.  Couple that with the 4 Red Blasts and your Infiltrators are going to be useless, whereas an Ophidian has a slightly better chance of getting through.  

Here are some suggestions.  First, I don't like Mana Leak in this deck.  With no moxes, the ability to counter with Mana Leak very early in the game is diminished.  I would recommend pulling all four and adding two Misdirections.

I really think this deck needs either Duress for agressiveness or Impulse for stability.  One or the other.  I love Duress, so I would try to fit in four.

Masticore must be in this deck, even if it means pulling a Morphling.  Masticore and Ophidian (or Infiltrator) work very well together.  With a Masticore, you could pull a Keg and still have decent creature control.  

Back to Basics?  It would be pretty damn cool against Keeper to throw one out.  But, they bring in Red Blasts, which work nicely aginst BtB.  I guess it's your call.

Now, the Negators are ultra top secret tech!  Pull your Ophidians (or Finkels) for Negators after game 1 and you wreck Keeper.  Keeper sides in all of those nice Red Blasts and probabally takes out most of their creature control against your deck (red blasts are creature control against you).  But, the Negator laughs at Red Blasts and beats mightly.  Negator for Ophidians in a shifting sideboard.  That would truly be awesome!

Good luck.

[FeverDog]

I definetly agree that Ur is strong and i would play it over MonoU any day of the week, but i just think Ub hasnt gotten enough attention. Sure, Fire/Ice is a beating vs Sligh but most of the aggro decks in our area are more of the janky variety, with hardly any one-toughness creatures Fire becomes much less broken. I understand that Keg is useless vs control(except for killing moxen) but i think its more powerful against random stuff we tend to face.

Obviously we will never get a chance to find out which of our decks is truly superior because i dont own any power and that makes my deck slower than yours but it doesnt really matter anyway. By that i mean that we each have to play whatever we feel most comfortable with, for you thats Ur Phid, for me it may be Ub but its definetly not set in stone yet. In the end, i may abandon my deck for something more similar to yours, but i hope not, if only because two friends playing the same deck in the same tourney strikes me as boring.

In closing, i think that even if my Ub build ends up being inferior to Ur, it will still be much more interesting than playing MonoU and hopefully it will find its niche. One day, if i get some courage, i may play my unpowered version in a tournament, until then the speculation will continue.

[Zherbus]

I really would prefer the duress's over a pair of mana leaks I'n a less aggressive environment personally. The leaks will be, however, good against low mana count aggro. I'll write this off as a meta-game call.  

[FeverDog]

Like i said, i love Duress, its a great card, but its not a great top-deck which is why it became Mana Leak. If i were playing in a more control-heavy area then the Leaks could very well be Duress, or at least a 2/2 split, but right now it stays 4 Leaks.

This doesnt mean that i will never run Duress in the deck and perhaps some more testing vs other decks will convince me to switch back but so far, vs Suicide/Sligh/Stompy, i prefer Leaks. The one drawback is that they are often nearly useless late-game but the same can be said for Duress and at least i can pitch Leaks to FoW/MisD.

I would like to thank everyone for all the great feedback so far. I am aware of the deck's weakness' and i am trying to work on them, one thing is for sure though, i will be running Finkels instead of Phids. I already have deal worked out with Phoenix and if im gonna trade for 4 of those suckers you better believe im gonna use them somewhere.

[ETP]

Im with Milton (pictured here ->   ) when he says you need Masticore (seen here ->   ) in your deck.  He does the work of the abyss plenty good against weenies (displayed here ->  ) and turns them into corpses (as you can see in this picture ->   ).  Lastly that make me (  ) turn into a happy person (  ) because i just happen to like the card.

[Zherbus]

I just want to add, that with no Moxen, Finkel would be better. Ophidian has nothing on it with no/little colorless acceleration.

[FeverDog]

Thats exactly what im saying. If i ran a full set of jewelery AND Mana Drain then i can see maybe switching to Phids but not with the current decklist. Also, although its true that CoP: Black will stop Finkel, thats not really my biggest worry.

[spin13]

I just have to point out how much -DOOM- is inspired by peekle!  If only I could be electronic and tekken....  Wowz0r!

Oh, and I'd agree with cutting a Keg for a Masticore, to again agree with Milton.  However, about the Negators, I know I wouldn't side out my Abyss against any deck packing Ophids/Finkels as their main card drawing.  If they side them out, then I have 1 dead card to -4 card drawers.  If they bring in Negators, I am still not dead (plus, if playing Keeper I have Balance too, and with OSE, I have at least a pair of Kegs and my Mishra's (which mightly block either Ophids, Finkels, or Negators [ Mishra's Factory: 1, Tap: Sacrifice this, opponent sacrifices 3 permanents....sounds good to me! ]).  And if they leave them in, then I have a permanent answer to their card drawing.  Yay for Abyss!

 -Eric