My Keeper.

[Morphling]

Well, this is it. Painfully generic, but I'm going for maximum versatility. I wanted no glaring weaknesses that couldn't be fixed post-boarding. Well, aside from the MANA BASE (am I the only Keeper player anywhere that doesn't make excuses for this?).  

Six main points:

1. The Volcanic/Tundra ratio. I had it 4/3 for the longest time, but I finally decided that even with four Blasts boarded-in, I was still getting more red than I needed most of the time. Also, I like Moat. A lot. Ten white sources/nine red works best for me.

2. After a long period of playtesting and soul-searching, I finally chose Chainer's over Diabolic as my maindeck Edict. True, it can't kill manlands, but it's a passable Drain sink and a nasty late-game surprise that a control deck has to counter twice to save its Morphling (in this way, it almost makes up for lack of a tenth counter in the "generic" Keeper build). Also, I have seven maindeck cards that CAN kill a Factory, so no worries there. More flexability is good. Besides, Chainer's has better art (I love how that stupid-looking centaur thing is about to get HACKED  ).

3. CoP: Black vs. Ensnaring Bridge. I just don't like the bridge. Never have, never will. It's primary use is against Suicide, but really it only stops Negator there. Crafty Suicide players who realize what you're up to will just play around it, declaring attacks with Nantuko Shades and then pumping them for megadamage later. Perversely, it doesn't even always stop Negator, as a few nuked mana sources early on can leave you with a bloated hand you can't dump. It's just not reliable.

4. Tormod's Crypt. Can the most well-rounded control deck in any format still lay claim to that title in 2002 without running some form of graveyard removal? In a word: No.

5. Cunning Wish. I ran into the same problem JP and others did. Specifically, I kept finding that using a Wish to access my sideboard in game one was only made posssibly by running a sub-optimal sideboard to begin with. Not a trade I'm willing to make. Wish is cute, but so was Soothsaying. I think it's just another fad in Keeper.

6. Vampiric Tutor. Some people cut this. Some people play control mirror matches 90% of the time. Coincidence? I think not!  With all seriousness, though, I still maintain that Vampy is as much of a necessity as Balance in the real world.

Without further ado...

"Generikeeper"

Red:

1 Gorilla Shaman

Green:

1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library

White:

1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Swords to Plowshares

Black:

1 Chainer's Edict
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 The Abyss
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Blue:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Time Walk
2 Morphling
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Split:

1 Fire/Ice

Artifacts:

1 Zuran Orb

Mana Sources:

1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
4 City of Brass
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

1 Aura Fracture
1 Circle of Protection: Black
1 Moat
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scrying Glass
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Powder Keg
4 Red Elemental Blast

[drg`]

You probably wanna cut the vampiric for a Cunning Wish.  

Also if you do this you can change your sideboard to the following:

Sideboard:

3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ebony Charm / Phyrexian Furnace
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Powder Keg
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black
1 Scrying Glass
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Aura Fracture
1 Moat
1 Misdirection

[Rakso]

Uh... that's practically my pre-Judgment decklist.

[Dante]

Quote (drg` @ Sep. 27 2002,07:17)You probably wanna cut the vampiric for a Cunning Wish.  

Also if you do this you can change your sideboard to the following:

Sideboard:

3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ebony Charm / Phyrexian Furnace
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Powder Keg
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black
1 Scrying Glass
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Aura Fracture
1 Moat
1 Misdirection

I don't think that having access to a few sideboard cards (3 REB, 1 Ebony Charm, 1 STP, 1 Shattering Pulse, 1 MisD) is worth not being able to Vampiric for the good cards in your deck (i.e. Balance, Yag Will, Abyss, Morphling, a real counter, Zuran Orb, Strip/Wasteland), especially since you can vampiric for a maindeck STP/edict or dis-blow, which kind of negates that aspect leaving you able to wish for 3 REB, 1 Ebony Charm, and a Mis-D.  Doesn't seem like a good trade (although the Wish does put the card in your hand vs waiting 1/2 or 1 turn).

Dante

[Zherbus]

Quote 6. Vampiric Tutor. Some people cut this. Some people play control mirror matches 90% of the time. Coincidence? I think not!  With all seriousness, though, I still maintain that Vampy is as much of a necessity as Balance in the real world.

Without further ado...

Some people (CrazyCarl and Myself) don't play Vampiric and don't play control mirrors all day long. In its place, Cunning Wish has been the perfect answer. Between the two of us, we play some control mirrors, sligh, gro, TnT, mono-black, and (especially me) combo.

Vampiric isn't just bad in the mirror, its a turn lost for a GOOD card while your getting a free burn spell to the dome against aggro. Against Combo, I'd rather draw it and wish for a misdirection or in a pinch a REB, than to wait a turn for something good. This is a recent thing for me, as I was running GenericKeeper.dec for the most part with a few cute SB things.

Cunning Wish gave me something that was both a card that can replace Vampiric, and a flexible card that let me play with hosers. Ask BigChuck what he thought of Shattering Pulse. Hell, it lets you run another spot removal against aggro, another Misdirection or Response against mono-black, or Allay against pesky enchantments that you normally only have 1 slot for.

Anyways, thats my pitch I guess. I no longet enjoy Vamp in Keeper, and I feel my decks performance has increased since I cut it for the wish. Of course, if you (I mean you Will) are wrecking ass with generic keeper in your area, if is broken why fix it? Unless you want to play around with card slots to experiment.

[Morphling]

Quote  Uh... that's practically my pre-Judgment decklist.  

I think the only distinctive feature of your maindeck was also Chainer's over Diabolic, right? If so, I'm guessing the sideboard has a couple difference, too. Almost no two sideboards are ever the same.

What's your post-Judgement list, by the way?

[Morphling]

Quote  Some people (CrazyCarl and Myself) don't play Vampiric and don't play control mirrors all day long. In its place, Cunning Wish has been the perfect answer. Between the two of us, we play some control mirrors, sligh, gro, TnT, mono-black, and (especially me) combo.
 

Well, I guess I could give it a try... I'll get back to you.

[Nevyn]

Personally, I would cut the dismantling blow for cunning wish (and run disenchant in the sb). THe key to cunning wish is not getting too cute with it. If you load up your sb with a million silver bullets, you will make your deck worse. But wish can fetch some cards already in your board (blasts, swords and/or potentially an edict), be a blow when you want it but not when you don't, not to mention refinding any instants you pitch to FoW or use with YawgWill. It only really needs to modify 1-2 sb slots to be an improvement, and I would only mess with more than that if I had a very wide field to deal with.

[Zherbus]

Quote (Nevyn @ Sep. 27 2002,12:35)Personally, I would cut the dismantling blow for cunning wish (and run disenchant in the sb). THe key to cunning wish is not getting too cute with it. If you load up your sb with a million silver bullets, you will make your deck worse. But wish can fetch some cards already in your board (blasts, swords and/or potentially an edict), be a blow when you want it but not when you don't, not to mention refinding any instants you pitch to FoW or use with YawgWill. It only really needs to modify 1-2 sb slots to be an improvement, and I would only mess with more than that if I had a very wide field to deal with.

That is way too risky for my tastes. Taking the Blow out means that once the wish is used up, you have no way to top deck a solution. Dismantling Blow isnt the weak link in common Keeper decks.

[Max, the Mana Drainer]

You could try to cut Stroke and move it into the sideboard as you did in your Acc Blue.


Max, the Mana Drainer

[Milton]

I'll chime in with my usual concerns.

1) Do you have enough main deck creature control to win against aggro regularly?  I find that 1 Fire/Ice, 1 Swords and 1 Edict are all way too situational.  I draw the Fire/Ice when I would prefer the Swords or the Edict.  With your mana base I would say three Swords, while trying to fit in a Keg (possibly in place of the Shaman), makes your deck stronger.  Keg kills Morphling dead, so you really don't need Edict.  It is also great aginst Mono Red.  Also, Ophidian and Shadowmage are still trendy and Fire/Ice doesn't do anything to them.

2) Never cut Vampiric.  That is the most idiotic move ever.  Cunning Wish is way too slow.  People who run Cunning Wish use it to make their decks versitle, but it slows them down considerably, and you can't fetch your Zuran Orb, Balance or Library of Alexanderia with it.  Zuran Orb beats burn, Library beats mono-blew and Balance gets you back into the game against everything.  Cunning Wish is just too slow around agressive Wastelanding and mana kill that is indictive of modern aggro.


3) Is Green really necessary?  If not, you can add Mishra's Factories.  I switched to Mishra's and I will never go back.  Mishra's kills Ophidians, Blurred Mongoos and slows Sligh.  It blocks early Negators.  It provides you with another win condition.  In my opinion, Mishra's in your deck is greater than the benefit you get from having green.

4) I am finding that one disenchant effect isn't enough.  This may be due to my metagame, but I am running two Disenchant effects now (a Blow and a Disenchant).  Also, I have another couple in the sideboard.  Oath and Survival decks are doing very, very well and they are devestating Keeper.  But, that is regional.  Also, I've died to way to many cursed scrolls to stick with one Dis. Blow.  

Anyway, those are my random thoughts good luck.

[Morphling]

Quote  1) Do you have enough main deck creature control to win against aggro regularly?

Not always.

Quote  3) Is Green really necessary?

 

Not always.

Quote  4) I am finding that one disenchant effect isn't enough.  

Yeah, it's not always.

Notice a trend?

Seriously, I think you have valid points, however, no pile of 60 cards is EVER going to be able to be do everything. This is what sideboarding is for. The Keeper maindeck is an educated guess about what might be the best configuration for a completely hypothetical "random" matchup. It's never going to have enough maindeck counters, creature removal, enchantment and artifact kill, etc for every possible situation.

So are your points valid? Yes. Are they all relatively-easily answered by directing your attention to the sideboard? Yes.

That's what sideboards are for.

For what it's worth, my gut still inclines me to agree with you about Wish. I'm not sure I want the narrowest tutor effect in my deck to also be the most expensive and require me to make some sub-optimal sideboard choices that will hurt me as much in games two and three as they help me in game one.

[Zherbus]

Quote 2) Never cut Vampiric.  That is the most idiotic move ever.  Cunning Wish is way too slow.  People who run Cunning Wish use it to make their decks versitle, but it slows them down considerably, and you can't fetch your Zuran Orb, Balance or Library of Alexanderia with it.  Zuran Orb beats burn, Library beats mono-blew and Balance gets you back into the game against everything.  Cunning Wish is just too slow around agressive Wastelanding and mana kill that is indictive of modern aggro.

I'm glad you think that much of me. That sounds to me like reverse elitism; all I told him was to try it, and your telling him not to bother its just idiotic.

Quote Seriously, I think you have valid points, however, no pile of 60 cards is EVER going to be able to be do everything.

Yes, agreed. Each keeper build is indictive of a metagame and there is no definitive way to tweak it universally.

[Milton]

Quote The Keeper maindeck is an educated guess about what might be the best configuration for a completely hypothetical "random" deck.

I guess that's where you got me.  I don't play in random environments against random decks, so I wouldn't know what the best deck in that instance is.

[Milton]

Quote I'm glad you think that much of me. That sounds to me like reverse elitism; all I told him was to try it, and your telling him not to bother its just idiotic.

You are right.  I'm sorry and I withdraw my comment.

I wasn't addressing your suggestion at all but more of the general trend on the net latley that states that Vampiric is horrible.  

I assure you, there was no offense intended.

[Nevyn]

Zherbus, I acknowledge that I don't have keeper much, so this is my standard acknowledgement that I may have my head up my ass, but it seems to me that the blow gets cut for being the most situation card (I guess in an all control environment this could be swords).

Yes, if you use your wish somewhere else you could have no way to disenchant later, but that gets balanced by the fact that A) you wished for something else, which probably either already saved your ass (and since you didnt get blow, having it maindeck would not have) or helped you take a winning position, making the point somewhat moot;   B) this should only be a concern for game 1 if they have a card you know you will need blow for.

I guess I just never really cared much for the 'all else failed you can cycle it' argument on the blow, and it seems to me that keeper arguments are usually about the 15 cards you are trying to cram into those last couple of slots. This does that for you.

As for the cost, it only costs one more than demonic, is blue, can fetch silver bullets too narrow to go maindeck, and is instant (which in some ways is like taking one off the casting cost). I fully acknowledge that I have not tried this, and you guys may be right. But wish seems to me to be the logical choice.

Now as for cutting other cards for it instead (or in addition), I don't like the idea of stroke going to the board as the 3 mana to find it cuts right into how well you can use it.

[Big Blue]

No offense, but cutting Vampiric IS idiotic...

Does nobody of you ever play against Sui? It is often the only chance to actually cast that Balance/Abyss/Morphling/whatever saves you.

Against Sligh you can always get ZOrb, if you feel you don´t need more brokenness but rather more than 3 lives.

IMO the card loss is over-compensated by the gain in speed. Note, that you also can Tutor for LoA in control matches (if you are in that typical draw-go-phase). It´s also a nice topdeck for YawgWin after a big counter-war.

The only disadvantage is its colour.

[CrazyCarl]

In my Keeper(which is essentially the same as Morphling's but with Wish in place of the Vampiric and Tolarian Academy in place of a Tundra *Gimp Lands 4L*) I have been running Cunning Wish since Judgment came out.  I think it's an amazing card and I'm seldom sad to draw it.

That said, it took me a long time to figure out how to fit it in.  For a few months, Braingeyser was the card I had cut for it.  I've learned how retarded that was and the next card on the chopping block was Vampiric Tutor.  I can honestly say I haven't missed it.  I mean, it might be -nice- to tutor for stuff, but I just haven't seen the need.

And no, i'm not being some random moron going "Vampiric's bad becuz itz card disadvnantage!!1".  I have played with and without both. So the reason -I- wouldn't recommend Vampiric to someone because I 1) Don't play it myself, 2) Think there are better cards to be playing in that slot.

Against Sui, It is very good, I agree.  Getting Balance or Abyss etc is REALLY good.  But, being able to Wish for Misdirection(for that Hymn or Sinkhole) or for an Edict or Plow or even Pulse if they play Warbeasts main.

That said, Morphling: Let us know how you find the Wish to be.  I think you'll like the versatility it provides.

Also, who's still running Allay?  How useful have you found it to be?  I always felt it was just too slow and didn't do enough, but I never really had a chance to play with it alot.

-edit-
Nevyn: The reason I and most people haven't cut Dismantling Blow is because it A) Cycles(it's a stronger argument than you might think) and B) You really can't go without a Disenchant effect main deck.  However, if it was -JUST- Disenchant, and not D-Blow(Say D-Blow didn't exist), I might consider that for the cut and run Allay in my SB.  But since D-Blow is availible, I think it's correct to run it in the main.

Carl\n\n

[Zherbus]

Quote No offense, but cutting Vampiric IS idiotic...

Listen, this thread will not turn into a fucking 'to Vamp or not' thread. Its what I do, and it works.

Do try to be more diplomatic in the future, else this turns into a flame war (WHERE I AM INVOLVED) and people get warned/banned and threads get closed and Will gets next to no constructive critism about his deck.

Calling something idiotic that is not cut and dry is in itself idiotic. Do I go around to all the keeper threads that run vamp and say 'Losing a turn, effectively giving aggro a time walk, and taking two damage from a card that you run of a city of brass a large part of the time is Idiotic'? No.

If someone runs vamp and it works for them, yay! Otherwise, I present an option that has worked for me. I dont lose to bad aggro, I dont lose to combo, in fact recently the majority of what I've been losing to is TnT taking roughly 50% from me and myself for not reading a retarded type 2 card.

It is my theory that Keeper is no longer a silver bullet deck and relying on tutors has crippled the decks evolution.

Quote Zherbus, I acknowledge that I don't have keeper much, so this is my standard acknowledgement that I may have my head up my ass, but it seems to me that the blow gets cut for being the most situation card (I guess in an all control environment this could be swords).

Yes, if you use your wish somewhere else you could have no way to disenchant later, but that gets balanced by the fact that A) you wished for something else, which probably either already saved your ass (and since you didnt get blow, having it maindeck would not have) or helped you take a winning position, making the point somewhat moot;   B) this should only be a concern for game 1 if they have a card you know you will need blow for.

I guess I just never really cared much for the 'all else failed you can cycle it' argument on the blow, and it seems to me that keeper arguments are usually about the 15 cards you are trying to cram into those last couple of slots. This does that for you.

As for the cost, it only costs one more than demonic, is blue, can fetch silver bullets too narrow to go maindeck, and is instant (which in some ways is like taking one off the casting cost). I fully acknowledge that I have not tried this, and you guys may be right. But wish seems to me to be the logical choice.

Now as for cutting other cards for it instead (or in addition), I don't like the idea of stroke going to the board as the 3 mana to find it cuts right into how well you can use it.

Well, I would never cut Blow because Sligh runs Cursed Scroll and sometimes Vise, TnT exists and I play against it, Suicide runs Null Rod, Nether Void runs Voids and Keg, Sylvan library is a problem as is scrying glass, Land Tax and/or scroll rack is a pain, Masknought is evil, and it gives another card to deal with some combos if need be (Dragon, Donate, etc). Oh yeah, non-basic hate like Blood Moon, B2B, and Choke are annoying.

If one is stuck on running Vamp, Carl cut Geyser for it with some degree of success (he won a ruby with it  ).

[CrazyCarl]

Quote If one is stuck on running Vamp, Carl cut Geyser for it with some degree of success (he won a ruby with it  ).

Yeah, but Braingeyser is INSANE! You draw like 400 cards when you cast it!  <3 Braingeyser <3

Anyways, I'm going to try out running 4 Tundras sometime(Cutting my beloved Academy  ) to see what happens.  I won't be doing this at local tournies(where there are few Gorilla Shamans) But at the next tournament in a completly random metagame, I'll give it a shot.  At the tournament in NJ, I had a few occasions where Academy lost me the game because it didn't produce mana(in game 2, essentially game 3 against Jason aka leviat).

Carl

[Radagast]

On the Wish/Vamp issue:
Cunning Wish will probably be in my deck for as long as artifact-creature-based beatdown decks are around (and no new The Abyss is printed that kills artifact creatures as well), on the sole merit of being able to fetch Shattering Pulse. The one gripe I have with the card is that, unlike the other Tutors, you can't default to fetching Ancestral  (ie, I often find myself wanting to Wish for some card-drawing; maybe I will try out a Skeletal Scrying in the side).
As for Vampiric, I am unsure - sometimes it's positively amazing; other times you draw it and wish it were an Impulse instead. But I guess people already know that.

[Zherbus]

Its janky as all hell, but theres nothing written anywhere that says you cant side Vamp. I'd never do it myself, but its an idea.

[Dante]

Zherbus - If someone is running into a lot of TnT, then Cunning Wish is probably better as you can get that game 1 Shattering Pulse.  But my recent experiences (last 6 tournaments or so), well over half the time I got Vampiric tutor, I was glad it was Vampiric and not the other cards I was considering (like cunning wish, etc).  Vamp for LoA won me two games this past tournament alone.

Dante

[Rakso]

Vamp for LoA... against what?

[Dante]

One deck was a control-ish survival deck (I had a first turn vamp and ancestral recall).  I drew about 20 extra cards off it and needed them.  Don't remember the other off the top of my head - I'll post a tournament report sometime in the next day or so and I'll have my notes.

Dante

[Zherbus]

Quote (Dante @ Sep. 30 2002,12:19)Zherbus - If someone is running into a lot of TnT, then Cunning Wish is probably better as you can get that game 1 Shattering Pulse.  But my recent experiences (last 6 tournaments or so), well over half the time I got Vampiric tutor, I was glad it was Vampiric and not the other cards I was considering (like cunning wish, etc).  Vamp for LoA won me two games this past tournament alone.

Dante

Well first, Ill agree that the influx of Workshop decks has made cunning wish very much worth it, but its also given me other options I enjoy.

Next, Vamp'ing for a LoA means that you must meet these conditions: 7 Cards in hand to abuse LoA, even after losing a card to Vamp and your opponent doesnt have a wasteland waiting.

I can understand someone feeling uncomfortable not running Vamp, as its been a staple for so long. I can also see it being better that the Wish in a metagame with no Workshop decks or control mirrors, though I would run a second swords if that were the case. Though, like Carl said, I have cut it and havent turned back.

I think its especially nice since so many decks are becoming more resiliant to Abyss, making the potency of a tutor that less devistating. Aggro players are less and less walking face first into an Abyss trap and I think thats why Keeper has to adjust.

As far as its casting cost goes, it at least isnt off color and is likely usable turn 1-2 with the aid of moxen to grab a response or a misdirection or whatever you need.

Back to the original point, hmm?

Will, your aggro runs little land kill or disruption if I remember correctly. Also, you probably dont face any mirrors or workshop decks, I really think that even as in love with Cunning Wish as I am, you probably dont need it. You can probably just run run-of-the-mill keeper, possibly with a second maindeck swords, and clean up either way.

[riverboa11]

Quote (CrazyCarl @ Sep. 27 2002,13:16)Also, who's still running Allay?  How useful have you found it to be?  I always felt it was just too slow and didn't do enough, but I never really had a chance to play with it alot.
consider that for the cut and run Allay in my SB.  But since D-Blow is availible, I think it's correct to run it in the main.

I run both Shattering Pulse and Allay (Asian:ninja:) in my SB, and have had great success with both.  There is nothing like clearing the other side of the board, or getting rid of a pesky enchantment/artifact when your D. Blow is in the grave, and you have already used up both your Regrowth and Yawg's Will.  I'm still testing them, but so far, so good.

As for Vamp, I have recently cut it, and haven't regretted it.  I too have replaced it with Cunning Wish and enjoyed the flexibility of that card...and it's blue too!  Still testing it out though.