Has there ever been a Sui w/o Hypnotic Specter?

[Dozer]

On the other side of the Atlantic, in Germany's Die Zusammenkunft (www.zk-forum.de), we are currently having an argument if there has ever been a Suicide Black build that did -on purpose- not run Hypnotic Specters. I doubt it, but since my discussion partner claims there had been decks like that on BDominia, I am looking for proof.

(He says he's talking about the "real" Suicide, that always had Carnophage and Sarcomancy but in most cases no Specters. For those who want to read the German thread, this is the link: http://www.zkforum.de/showthr....umber=3)

Can anyone confirm or disconfirm that there has once been an accepted Suicide build without Hypnotic Specter but with the Zombies?

Thanks,
Dozer

[Rakso]

Never heard of it and I had to read all of the old BD posts, if that's the source he's talking about.

If you're trying to reconstruct it, there are two arguments.

First, more efficient black weenies came really late, yet you still see Hippie in the last builds. Your Suicide is really JP's FleshReaver.dec, and it's the Reavers that are substituted there, not the Specters.

Second, the 2-mana slot is clogged, so if he removed Specters, what was he planning to put in their place? And Ritual-Specter is still as nasty as it used to be against many decks.

If you were to remove Specter, it'd be for metagames where Suicide would stink in the first place. So in the cases where you'd play Suicide at all, there's no apparent reason to yank Specter.

His only justification might be that it's an overcosted 2/2 in some cases, so may as well replace it with some maindeck Masticore or Nantuko Shade. But you figure you'd ask in reply why he doesn't go play Nether Void, for example, without being half baked about it.\n\n

[Puschkin]

Its so easy, he most likely talked about the original Extended/Type Screw Suicide Black decks which obviously had no Specters at all. And as allways, first transitions to Type I might have had no Specters, especially the versions with focussed more Hatred (Hatred and Suicide Black wer somewhat the same at one point).

[Zherbus]

There was quite a craze about not running Hypnotic Specters in Suicide black for a while back on BD. It was right around the time that Rotting Giant came out and some Suicide players were going for the whole most damage as possible route.

[Rakso]

"Craze" by who, though? I could very well claim that there's an ICT craze on the Wizards boards or something.

By the way, the Extended builds now still feature Mesmeric Fiend so you might argue they'd be Specters if they were legal, anyway.

[FeverDog]

Just in case there is any doubt by anyone, anywhere on the planet: If you are not running Hippies in Suicide, your deck is sub-optimal.

I really cant see it ever leaving the deck either, even if they printed an exact Juzam at 3cc, it would replace Negator not Hypnotic.

[Dozer]

Thanks for the answers, I think that solved the issue.

And yeah, it ain't Black if there's no Hyppie in it.

Dozer

[TunaBoo]

If you play a lot of sligh, hypnotic is pretty crappy

(not like sui is that good vs. sligh anyways..  )

[TracerBullet]

To tell the truth, I do remember some builds, right around the Fleshreaver.dec time that gave up Hyppie for more aggresive creatures.  I personally wouldn't call that Suicide, as Suicide Black has existed much longer than Hatred (going back to early Necrodecks and probably even a little earlier) as the basic concepts remain the same.  I personally have Hypnotic Specter in the definition of Suicide Black, so anything that doesn't contain Hyppie can't be called Suicide.

[chocolovebox]

For what it's worth, our team has come to stick by him after tons of testing. Rakso made a good point with the 2cc point already being clogged.  If you want a ton of aggro creatures, just run Sligh.  What it came down to for me is that there are no replacements for him that are four power or higher.  So the beatdown you'd replace him with is barely more efficient and without the disruption and evasion.  Though sometimes, even if this sounds like heresy, I drop the fourth Hyppie for a Necropotence if I'm expecting a lot of Keeper.  What can I say, it works.    Hope this helps.