.Brought Suicide April 2003.

[Queequeg]

@Mykeatog+BillTheDuck

Ok you have made some nice pionts about the sinkholes. Almost all of this refers to GAT, Gro and Hulk. Now I know the metagame is turning to a game dominated by these decks, but this will pass, and control Iam sure as it still is will become the wreaking ball is renouned for.

Sinkholes are stronger outside these few matches than powderkeg and unearth alone. Take for example control, against keeper a single sinkhole can change the direction of the game hosing out white for example, or even a early hole after a Hymn can seal BBs fate if they subsequently struggle a land drop. Against aggro its just as useful if you catch Stompy or Sligh light on land a single sinkhole can equal game over.

As you have both said sinkhole is a good card. I would say it is better against most matchups than many alternatives, with the expections of several matchups, Hulk/Tog/Gro and Fish the only other stratergy to consistantly run 4 Misdirection. Since this is the case wouldn't to be better to main deck sinkhole and sideboard Chains as a subsitute and something like plaguebearer against Fish.

If however as I suspect your metagame is a little more forward than mine and every man as his wife is playing some sort of Tog deck, In which case sinkhole would only be absorbing more useful sideboard slots.

As for drawing Sinkhole late, yes it is bad, but just removing sinkhole dosn't make suicides endurance better. I can imagine unearth would help, but most of Sui creatures with the exception of shade are based to be effective with a early start from a cover of disruption, Returning a Negator against a Tog is hardly gonna really help.

Powder keg is great, I main deck 4, but I see lots of weenie, Sligh ect, I can't see powder Keg being at all effective agianst killing Tog. In this instance you must be using it mostly for Mox destruction. So why Don't you sideboard Keg for the Sligh/Stompy/WW matches and Main deck Null Rod which is better verses Control and Tog?

Well Done by the way on the Victory!

[BillTheDuck]

EBA = Eon Blue Apocalypse

//NAME: EBA
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

1 Vindicate
1 Chainer's Edict
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain/Counterspell

4 Meddling Mage
4 Ophidian
4 Phyrexian Negator

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 City of Brass
2 Island

SB:
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Disenchant
3 Planar Void
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Aura Fracture
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Misdirection
1 Zuran Orb

Basic strategies are to play threats and then play reactively protecting and clearing a way for them or to take control and follow it up with a threat. Basically aggro control, pretty much destroys the tog decks from what I've tested, and thats what its meant to do. It won the last new hampshire tournament Zherbus held, and has been consistantly placing high enough.

Anyway, I should keep this on topic and say something relevant, so here goes:

Null rods are great cards, but they are themselves dead pretty often. Keg always has something to hit. I believe what mike is going for is less dead cards so it can win the long games. If you are both draw going, keg is an awesome draw, null rod and sinkhole are not. Also, if with all the disruption in this deck, you can't live long enough to get a keg to 2 or 3, you're doing something wrong.

[Magimaster]

I'd just like to say, Bill the Duck,

that is the absolute most awesomest name for a deck I can think of.

[mezzir]

Quote (Magimaster @ April 09 2003,15:53)I'd just like to say, Bill the Duck,

that is the absolute most awesomest name for a deck I can think of.

thank you  
i was the guy piloting it at the NH tourney, nick and i co-created it
i may not be the best at making decks, but i absolutely love coming up with names
i still think GAT should be called 'four ton mantis'
good song by amon tobin, and think about the creatures...
 

[lambosa]

Hi all.

I have a couple of questions that I've been mulling over the past few days; I think I've got them well-formulated enough to post now.  I suppose that these are primarily directed at Mykeatog...

1.  On Cutting Sinkhole:

That the Sink is weak vs. Fetchlands/Gush/MisD is certain.  But since you are still running Strips/Hymns, isn't there a sense in which you've weakened your deck against those very cards?  It seems like you are going from ALWAYS casting a misdirectable spell/land distruction early on (like turn 2), and hoping they don't have a way to stop it, to casting a misdirectable spell/destroying land less often, but giving them more time to find an answer.  It's not clear that that those two scenarios are equitable, but I don't think that anyone has mentioned this yet, and I thought I'd ask about it.  

So: without Sinkholes, how often do you find yourself successfully Hymning/Stripping vs. GAT?  I would assume more often than with the Sinks, but it's not immediately obvious...

2.  Is Maze of Ith much much better than Royal Assassin?  I know the pros/cons, I'm just curious whether you've tested both.

That's it for now.  Thanks!

lambosa

[Fever]

On the subject of Sinkhole. I think that although the card is very powerful, it has probably never been worse than it is right now. Almost every deck out there is packing 4-6 Fetch lands, and the most feared deck (GAT) adds a full compliment of Gushes and Misdirections. Also, as many have mentioned, Sinkhole's power deminishes as the game goes on, and you never want to top-deck a Sink on turn 12 unless you are getting owned by LoA. Although i hate removing staples from a deck like Suicide, i think that given the right metagame, the exclusion of Sinkhole can be understood. Personally, i would rather run Edicts then Powder Kegs, but each is better in different situations, and it depends on what decks you expect to face.

[Mykeatog]

@lambosa:

I guess it is harder to explain this point but I think I have it. Sinkhole has been killed by the crazy land tricks going on right now, and it is true that these very same cards can negatively affect Hymn to Tourach, but Hymn is just to damned good. This is much like in a GAT vs. GAT matc you don't side out the Ancestrall no matter what, here... you simply have to use Hymn to Tourach, it is clearly one of the most disgusting cards in the deck. Sinkhole was always a very helpful card, but more often that not, HYmn to Tourach is a better draw. Suicide needs Hymn to TOurach to maintain the explosive start, and it isn't even bad in the late game. I do fear Misdirection, but not too much. The point is, when they misdirect a Hymn at me-- they still just discarded two cards. The five wastes/strips are often enough to cripple the mana economy of one of these decks. I love sinkhole, but honestly it needs to take a break.

Maze of Ith helped me alot in the past. I have won a couple of games, and brought a couple long games out into ties using it. I will admit that this is one of the weakest cards in the Sideboard though. Royal Assassin has two major disadvantages, it is a counterable spell, and it is a burnable creature. He isn't terrible- not by a long shot, but there are better options out there.

I am going to spend alot of time working with the sideboard in the next couple of weeks, I want it to be solid. I will post any sideboard advancements here.

[lambosa]

@mykeatog:

Yeah, I understand that Hymn > Sinkhole as an individual card; no question.  But what I am *really* talking about is a kind of critical mass of disruption.  If I boil it down to one question:  

Have you noticed a decrease in the effectiveness of Hymn/Strips since pulling the Sinkholes?

Quote The point is, when they misdirect a Hymn at me-- they still just discarded two cards. The five wastes/strips are often enough to cripple the mana economy of one of these decks.

As far as Misdirection goes, they are *always* discarding two cards.  Are you saying you prefer Hymn to the face, rather than Sinkhole?

It is tempting to suppose that cutting your MisD targets in half really reduces the chance of you getting something thrown back at you.  But I'm not sure that this is the case, unless one of two scenarios occurs.  Either you don't have the Hymn early, and they pitch MisD to counter something else, or you don't have the Hymn early, they MisD it, but you don't have anything to speak of in hand.  Again, have you found this to be the case?  Have I missed something here?

Also:  If Sink is really so bad vs. Fetch/Gush/MisD, I fail to see how 5 strips are much better; a little, yes, but there is a BIG difference between saying "Land destruction is bad right now," and "5 strips are often enough, and Sinks are unnecessary."  I'm not sure which one you mean, but what is your game plan against GAT, if not mana disruption?  Put another way:  It would seem that the mana base is the weakest (not to say weak) part of the deck; Kegs over Null Rod or Sinks seems to imply that this strategy is inadequate.  Thoughts?

[hulk3rules]

Quote (lambosa @ April 11 2003,10:29)That the Sink is weak vs. Fetchlands/Gush/MisD is certain.  But since you are still running Strips/Hymns, isn't there a sense in which you've weakened your deck against those very cards?  It seems like you are going from ALWAYS casting a misdirectable spell/land distruction early on (like turn 2), and hoping they don't have a way to stop it, to casting a misdirectable spell/destroying land less often, but giving them more time to find an answer.  It's not clear that that those two scenarios are equitable, but I don't think that anyone has mentioned this yet, and I thought I'd ask about it.  

Imagine this scenario:

Your opponent plays a first turn fetch, you respond with a first turn waste.  This does still mess up their gush, if you do it right.  Next turn they will put down another land.  As soon as they sac the fetchland you can waste the other one in response.  This leaves them no place to gush.  It is possible for them to work around this by waiting for you to waste, rather then them going for it first.  If they do this though, you are really slowing them down, which is exactly what you want to do.  There is no way you could accomplish this with sinkhole.

EDIT- Or, he can do what wasp says *shrugs*

[waSP]

Quote Your opponent plays a first turn fetch, you respond with a first turn waste.  This does still mess up their gush, if you do it right.  Next turn they will put down another land.  As soon as they sac the fetchland you can waste the other one in response.  This leaves them no place to gush.  It is possible for them to work around this by waiting for you to waste, rather then them going for it first.  If they do this though, you are really slowing them down, which is exactly what you want to do.  There is no way you could accomplish this with sinkhole.

Instead your opponent is smart.  He sacs the fetchland first.  You get priority and the ability resolves.  He gets priority to do stuff now.  He plays the second land.  He can gush now.

Has anyone tested Cabal Therapy in here yet?  If you really wanted to get rid of misdirection as a threat, you could run a few copies of it.  I ran it in an old Reanimator version of suicide over the hymns and found it to be very, very good.

Maze is a lot better, without a doubt.  Sui doesn't always have the 3 mana for your Royal Friend.  You want him to be active turn 2 anyways.  Against decks like GAT (which it is meant to fight correct) you'll usually better playing out a specter or a skirge won't you?  Royal has better synergy than Unearth though.  A point I don't think has been addressed previously.

[Mykeatog]

The edge that Sinkhole doesn't have that the five strip mines do have is very important, and very obvious. Instant speed, uncounterable, free from mana cost, blowing up of your opponents land. Sinkhole is tragically hurt by all three of the aforementioned cards, so much so I feel it isn't viable to try and play with it in this scenario. On a related level, the powder keg replacement is awesome. As opposed to destroying a few select lands powerfully, against SOME of the decks in the field, it has an amazing impact against all of the decks in the field. There is a card in EVERY deck that power keg can reasonably take care of, including those nasty creatures from GAT. (This of course only works assuming you choose it as your first turn play off a ritual, under all other curcumstances keg will not save you. The point is Keg is useful all over the field.)

When playing Hymn to Tourach it must be well timed. You can't just blindly cast it against a GAT player if you are assuming they have a MIS-D in hand. What you essentially have to do is play everything that you have that you could deal with losing, and wait for them to be in a position where they either can't pitch a spell, or it will empty their hand. Hypnotic Specter can hit them once or twice, and open the hand up to be eaten-- it is all about timing. Many of my choices are for the metagame in general, but these are the strict applications that apply to a GAT deck. Hymn to Tourach is simply too good to drop. It is not ffavorable for them to MIs-D a Hymn, but Hyppie and Duress got it's back yo; the disruption doesn't fail.

Anything Null Rod does (in the GAT match) Keg can do better. I mean if you wish to stop a couple of moxen, Keg flat out removes them from play. However, if they don't draw the moxen, those powder kegs aren't dead cards, unlike what nullrod woudl become, because they can be used to chase up a dryad, or a tog. The whole point of Brought Suicide is removing any card that you wouldn't want to draw either in multiples, or on turn twelve. Keg still hits the mana base, wasteland can pull double duty for the sinkhole, and the sideboard can kick into gear for any other problems you are having.

I don't want to officially say anything until I try the match a little more, but so far BS has had great results against GAT. I have mentioned before some of the Amazing feats I have accomplished with the deck, but I have fought some damned good GAT's and so far the W's are with me (percentage wise). This obviously is something that I don't want to preach unless I am certain, so this will be updated with the Sideboard.

Thank you for the critique, it is one of the best formulated ones yet.

@Wasp

The point about Hulks example is, under NO curcumstance is Sinkhole useful when compared to Wasteland. Yes, your opponent can still play around it, BUT... Sinkhole would not have saved the day in your example.

[lambosa]

@Mikeatog:

First let me say this:  I'm not in any way trying to disagree with your ideas or results; I'm just trying critique (I think you know this, but I just wanted to be up front about it).

In General,

More on Sinkhole:

It is *key* to realize that I'm not talking about Sinkhole vs. Wasteland; rather, I feel that playing Sinks *and* Strips *and* Hymns make *all* of them stronger, even in the face of Fetch/Gush/MisD.

I think (and I believe you implied something similar) that a good opening vs. GAT involves a guy (either Hypnotic or Skirge, preferably), followed up with disruption.  Then Sinkhole is good here, especially having 4 + 5 land destruction effects.  If you have a guy on the board, let them MisD, or Gush.  In my experience, LD into Gush is not really much worse than actually hitting a land--if you have pressure on the table.  Certainly it is better than letting them
float->Gush->land->Tog, which is what will happen if you *don't* hit their land.

Worth noting:  this goes against the conventional wisdom of "disrupt, then play a guy."  But then we aren't really talking anymore about them having UU up to counter/drain, so much as not running into MisD on turn 1-2.

Now I know that you are going for some 'late® game' with your build.  When you get it worked out, I'd like to know what your plan is.  I know that this is really an issue for testing, but right now my feelings are that 1.  You lose a *lot* of your early game vs. GAT when you lose Sinkhole and 2.  Keg on turn 12 is not gonna save you any more than the Sink would.  I'd be interested to hear what you think about this.  Also, what do think about Negator?  I would *almost* think about cutting them before the Sinks, and maybe going to 4 Skirge, 3 Unearth.  Just a thought.

About the funny Royal Assassin:

My main thought was that he would be better than Maze against TnT, what with the Strips/Bloodmoon/Welder, and that if they could get to Trisk/Core, you're dead in the water anyway.  I haven't tested this yet, though; it's just a thought.

[Mykeatog]

I understand, and enjoy your critique, I did not take any of it in a negative light.

Which leads to another ramble on Sinkhole.

If it isn't apparent by now, I am not going to use this card. I have explained more than once they many reasons why I have deemed this card to be slightly below par in the current metagame. I understand all the points that were made about how it weakens the early game to not use them, but the fact of the matter is... it doesn't. A weak early game play is to get a spell fizzled or slammed back into your face. Running only 15 swamps, I don't need my lands getting hit up by my spells, and I see no need to use a card that when drawn late in ANY game, in ANY match up will not help me. I understand that this is a radical idea, but I have many very founded, and tested reasons not to use it. Fact of the matter is, most decks that are packing islands now a days, are packing Misdirection, and most decks are packing dual lands.

GAT is not the only deck in the format.

Yes, it is true. There are many flourishing decks in type 1 and GAT is only one of them. Fact of the matter is, GAT isn't even a bad match up for Suicide. I am not saying it is the best, but it certainly isn't TnT, or Eon Blue, two of the decks that officially have BS's number. These card choices are based ont he whole meta, and yes.. largely enough on GAT, but when stating things such as "Keg won't help you turn 12 anymore than a Sinkhole would." in reference to the GAT match I get annoyed. The arguement here is that a Keg won't be able to get to a helpful level in time... well if it is turn 12, and you are looking for answers, woudl you rather pop a land, or put out a clock? CLEARLY, Powder keg is superior in this case. There is NO argument that can show them equal, at all. Yes, Keg is not an uncounterable spell that kills all of your opponents creatures instantly, but god damn it.. it is better than Sinkhole, which will sit in yoru hand while you pray to the lord you draw ANYTHING that could resemble an answer.

As far as 'working out' my 'late game' I would just like to say...
At least twice in this thread I have explained the new late game strategy. Powder keg for a better chance, and Unearth for the best damned creature that you could want. A shift away from "over-disruption" into massive utility, and threat powerhousing, and a chance at taking home the long game-- that is the strategy. Win with your best guy, backed up by your best spells.

This deck needs to be able to function in all matches, not just GAT. Phyrexian Negator is quite simply IRREPLACEABLE. Never, never, never would I take him out to favor utility, or useless cards. Single handed win against many Control decks, and the easiest way to STEAL any game. This card has never been in question in my build, and why? Because he wins.

The deck revolves around a couple of basic ideas...
1.) Survive the long game, make em' sweat.
2.) Play the best cards, so you can win. (Not just the traditional cards.)
3.) Unearth is broken. (Resistance is Futile.)

However, I have a very important piece of advise to all of the Suicide players out there. Play whichever cards you are comfortable with. I mean, if you HONESTLY believe that you should be using 4 Sandbar Merfolk, or 4 Sinkhole, then do it. The fact is, you will ALWAYS do better piloting a deck that you know, that you feel good with, and that you can trust. In all of this banter remember, I am only trying to get you to see why my build is great, why this version is amazing, and trying to get you to conflict within as to what cards you would play if you wanted to play Suicide. These are my 75 most comfortable cards, and the more I use them together, the more I realize how much I enjoy them.

--And keep the feedback coming, I can rock on all day. (However, I recommend dropping the sinkhole arguement unless you all have NEW reasons why I should use it. I have spent months playing this out-- and Sinkhole, just isn't gonan work it's way into my build till the Metagame shifts back towards it.)

[Ric_Flair]

Hopefully Mykeatog will see this.  Even if he doesn't maybe some other non scrub can help me with the SB.  Here is my current SB for Sui:

4 Smother
3 Contagion
2 Edict
4 Withered Wretch
2 Null Rod

The metagame is funny here.  I have a couple of fully powered players with Keeper and Hulk.  Then there are the next tier of guys with WW.  Finally there is a whole slew of Sligh and Stompy, with some R/G Zoo mixing it up.  I think there are like 2 Sui players total.  There is no TnT or Stax with the super collectors home for the summer.  TJ's, my local store, is starting to run Type 1 with 5 proxies.  So I need some advice.  Here is my MD for reference:

4 Shade
4 Negator
4 Hyppie

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole

3 Powder Keg
3 Unearth

4 Ritual
1 Lotus
1 Jet

1 Necro
1 Will
1 Tutor
1 Consultation

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
15 Swamp

I have metagame reasons for running Sinkholes, so let's not go into that debate.

[theorigamist]

Why play Suicide in a metagame with lots of Sligh and RG Zoo?  It sounds like TnT would be much better.

[Methuselahn]

You probably should have started a new thread instead of hijacking this one eh?

No tnt or stax? lots of small weenie aggro?  Why are you playing Sui with 5 proxies available anyway?  

The deck you listed looks like Myke's deck except butchered up real good.  Maybe Nether Void is a good choice having 5 proxy worthy cards only and the looks of your metagame.

[Ric_Flair]

@ Methuselahn:  How is a discussion about SB in Brought Sui off topic?

@ Others:  Obviously I would love to play TnT in such a metagame but I don't have the cards, even with the 5 proxies.  The issue with the metagame is that only a few people have power and they run control.  I can beat the scrubby Stompy and Sligh decks even with Sui.  As such, I am only concerned about the random guy that shows up with a Stax deck or TnT.  So any thoughts on SB slots for those decks in light of the general Brought Sui decks.

I have thought about Void.

[Methuselahn]

ok, maybe not off topic, but the post WAS 2.5 months old.  *shrug*

have you thought about using Nev's Disks?? I find Disks to be too slow for MD, but are necessary for things like Survival, Abyss, Moat, and Morphling sometimes.

Why not use void?

[Ric_Flair]

When I get three Voids I will totally use them.  Furthermore, I would probably proxy them in the first TJ's Proxy tournament.

Also the reason I posted here was because even though this thread is 2.5 months old it has better content than the Unreg threads do.  This is not an elitist comment.  There is simply more experience with the deck here than there.

[Often Lost]

Well, I run 16 creatures, incl 4 Flesh Reavers. Flesh Reavers are great, better than Negator in alot of situations. Trades with Su-Chi's, Juggernauts, and kills all of Slighs creatures. Its better against Sligh and TnT than Negator, hell, its even better in the mirror.

Also, I run 4 Sinkholes and 3 Edicts. Edicts are just nice, quicker and better than Keg. And, Sinkholes is what Sui is about, its just soooooo great.

[herby]

mykeatog,
your deck build is almost exactly the same as what i'm using right now.  i was running sinkholes but the kegs really are a much better choice.  milton and i were fooling around with unearth a year or 2 ago in suicide and it really has been a great card.  i'm glad to see that someone else has caught on.  keep up the good work.

[Ric_Flair]

Mike can you post a post-Gush, combo era decklist?  I have had some success with a slight variant on your deck and not that MisD is dying down, I think the sinkholes are okay.  Any thoughts or insights you want to share?  Thanks.

[wuaffiliate]

this is what i run post gush, its very strong PWB are just superior in every way to the crappy skirges and sinks are a must its just ignorant not to run them imo. unearth are just godly they make losing perms to gator not as bad and makes alot of counters/removal much less useful. and yes i like petal main its support the point that sui is an EARLY GAME DECK, you CONTROL EARLY WITH DISRUPTION THEN BEAT DOWN. petal makes more broken early turns as it should be. the SB is still always being shifted arround but its solid vs combo and aggro i think i found a good balance. 15 seems to be the best threat density, ive been running 15 for over a year and its the magic number.

please post your post gush versions.

//NAME: spankmachine
// DATE: July 15 2003
// BY: Al "wuaffiliate" Dubuc
// Creatures (15)
        4 Phyrexian Negator
        4 Hypnotic Specter
        4 Nantuko Shade
        3 Phyrexian War Beast
// Restricted Brokeness (4)
        1 Necropotence
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Demonic Consultation
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Disruption (17)
        4 Sinkhole
        4 Hymn to Tourach
        4 Duress
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
// Help (3)
        3 Unearth
// Mana (21+5)
        14 Swamp
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Black Lotus
// Sideboard (15)
SB:  3 Null Rod
SB:  2 Coffin Purge
SB:  4 Planar Void
SB:  3 Powder Keg
SB:  3 Masticore

god damn anyone else notice how sucky the txt export of magic workstation is? i had to open it in apprentice to get a decent list!

[wuaffiliate]

Quote (Mykeatog @ April 11 2003,13:56)The point about Hulks example is, under NO curcumstance is Sinkhole useful when compared to Wasteland. Yes, your opponent can still play around it, BUT... Sinkhole would not have saved the day in your example.

no, sinkhole is useful when coupled with 5 stripes AND kegs from SB game 2-3. missing one of that element weakens your match considerably. Hulk is easily mana hosed from green, if you can keep green off the table then you have a good chance at a victory. losing sinks weakens the match that shouldnt be that weak to begin with.

you cant compare kegs and sinks, they have completely different uses and compliment each other too much not to use both. its not that its land destruction its the fact that its 2cc disruption spell that is very effective vs all decks.

[BillTheDuck]

About 3 weeks ago, everyone thought suicide was going to be a horrible metagame choice, but now I think its a great choice. I would assume the matchup is pretty good vs Hulk, and its disruption base can make for a gigantic headache for the new tendrils decks.

As for Broughton, he went home for the summer (so he's no longer residing anywhere near hadley). He hasn't posted much this summer, but that was partly because of the AOL ban. I haven't seen him online at all in the last few months, but I know he's getting a ride down with some of Hadley crew to Gencon and he might be playing a new Brought Sui. This is all just to say, he probably won't be replying to this thread very soon. If I talk to him, I'll direct him hear.

As for wu's list (by the way, good to see you back), I think if ever there was a time to play either kegs or rods maindeck (preferably kegs) its now. I think fitting kegs in somewhere would a great idea (given 4 top decks run more than 6 0cc artifacts and a few 1cc artifacts as well) and they can also be used to clear slighs side and give you a chance. Here is Legend's build of Brought Sui

--Pounds (LBS)--
Legend's Brought Suicide

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator

4 Unearth
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

3 Powder Keg

4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

SB:

1 Necropotence
1 Powder Keg
1 Sol Ring
4 Smother
4 Dystopia
4 Masticore

I like that there is no 4th creature (it might make unearth have to be used to cycle a little more, but I dislike skirge and warbeast) and that he fit everything in. I think the Necro should probably be main, and the sideboard could change a whole lot now that the metagame is different again.

Someone said once that unearth only works effectively with 15 creatures or more, and if that turned out to be true (as in if I actually tested this deck), I would have to go with skirges over warbeasts.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of that lotus petal.

[Fever]

@BilltheDuck

12 critters + Unearth is fine, i have tested it, thats not really an issue. However, your assumption of beating HULK is false. I tested this matchup versus Legend and i aboslutely crushed him with HULK. The problem is that you have no effective way to get around a Tog, it makes your Negators totally dead and it can usually eat a Shade without too much trouble. Plus, players are starting to run a Deed or two maindeck, which is bad new for you too. All in all, it  should be a good matchup, but after testing it i dont see Sui taking more than 40% at best.

[Ric_Flair]

I think the new list is good, but the SB is janky.  I find Necro and Consultation are often game winners.  I have never (or very rarely) Tutored for any card other than Necro.  I would seriously try it.  It is nutz.

[BillTheDuck]

@ Fever: sounds like you know a lot more about what you're talking about than me.

@ Ric: Yeah, thats legends list from about 4 months ago. Its by no means new. Playing necro main definitely seems like a good idea.

[wuaffiliate]

ill try the kegs in place of PWB doesnt seem like a bad idea at all. saves me SB slots also, i can add 1 more core 1 and rod and 1 ring.

with 3-4 rods + 6 grave hate cards helps in the combo match ALOT.

also fever did you play vs Sui that brings in 4 p voids, 4 cores and has a full set of kegs? i havnt played the match as such but i think that it should help sui ALOT. void seems a good way to get arround tog, and if i can disrupt enough and keep u from your green/serk my core can take care of business.

i really want to test the match  

what im toying with:
//NAME: spankmachine
// BY: Al "wuaffiliate" Dubuc
// Creatures (12)
        4 Phyrexian Negator
        4 Hypnotic Specter
        4 Nantuko Shade
// Restricted Brokeness (4)
        1 Necropotence
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Demonic Consultation
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Disruption (12)
        4 Sinkhole
        4 Hymn to Tourach
        4 Duress
// Help(6)
        4 Unearth
        2 Diabolic Edict
// Mana(27)
        15 Swamp
        4 Dark Ritual
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Black Lotus
// Sideboard (15)
SB:  4 Planar Void
SB:  4 Contagion
SB:  4 Powder Keg
SB:  3 Masticore

[BillTheDuck]

Planar void only stops half of Togs ability. The worse half. And not only that, it only half stops the second ability. They can still use all the cards already in their graveyard as well as using the cards they discard that turn (discard, put voids trigger on the stack, discard again, put voids trigger on the stack, remove the two cards).

I would think hypnotic specters and their flying would be the most important card to resolve (or let them counter and then unearth). I would defintely think that creature removal (smother preferably, or edict) wouldn't be too hard to resolve (again, I haven't tested this specific matchup, but I have tested against tog a whole lot with other decks).

I think the best way to win the matchup is to run 5 hypnotic specters and hope that no one notices .