.Brought Suicide April 2003.

[Mykeatog]

.Brought Suicide April 2003 Primer.

I have been playing Suicide as my main deck for almost 6 months, but I have been playing Suicide in general for over 3 years. I find that in the current metagame, Suicide is a tier one deck. I have been evolving the deck since October, and have had much success with my variants. In October 2002, I won a black lotus with this deck. In March 2003, I made top eight at the Northeastern Championships. I am writing this primer, not because I feel that Legends is wrong, but because I feel that it has become slightly out-dated. More so, I would rather the primers be seen as two different decks, because they clearly represent different ideology and even a different course of action taken to get to the ultimate goal; victory.

Legend was basing his deck about being able to destroy a control heavy metagame, and he succeeded very well. I have the intention of performing well in the metagame we play today, which even though has its all-stars, is still evolving. There is a huge shift with a push towards aggro/control decks. We aren’t living in the days of Keeper anymore, Keeper isn’t dead, but it isn’t the undisputed champion of the world any longer.

I suppose the very first thing to do is to go over card choice, in this version of suicide you will see many things that seem unconventional (including the absence of sinkhole), but also some extreme innovation.

–Made the Cut–

Nantuko Shade: Quite simply the best creature in this deck and one of the best creatures ever printed in Magic, Nantuko shade is a force to be reckoned with. For 2 mana, you get a 2/1 with the ability to be much bigger. His pure dominance in the field is obvious and the advantages that he brings to suicide black are enough to turn heads. Before this powerhouse suicide didn’t have any way to survive past the fifth or sixth turn. It became a race to the finish that Suicide never could quite grasp. Now with his pump action, Suicide has late game answers to Morphling, Sligh, and many other aggressive decks in the field. He can even go round for round with one of the creatures in GAT, The Dryad. There isn’t much I can say about this guy that you don’t already know, one of the five best creatures ever printed, use four of him.

Phyrexian Negator: This creature is one of the guys who brought this deck into existence. Phyrexian Negator and Dark Ritual work together to bring an end to the reign of control decks worldwide. The Negator has a incredible drawback, but his speed and power are just more important. For 3 mana, you get 5 power. If you can get this guy out before your opponent has reached control mass, then you win. Alone he is strong, but he works well with every other card in this deck. He is and always has been a staple of the deck, and with good reason; he just wins. Use four of him, even if your field is mostly aggro, this deck is structured to be able to perform where Suicide hasn’t been able to before.

Hypnotic Specter: The pimp behind it all. He has always been your favorite, and my favorite black creature, and much like Nantuko Shade is in contention to be the best creature of all time. He has been stealing cards, evading ground troops, and coming out on turn one for ten years. In ten years, he will still be doing all this. He rounds out the creatures you were expecting to see in this deck quite well.

Skittering Skirge: Another obvious choice. With his massive drawback he is quickly ruled out of most suicide builds, but if compare him to his main opposition (Flesh Reaver), he comes out on top every time. For a slightly more specific mana cost, you lose one power, but gain the best evasion available; flying. As a 3/2 Flyer, his down side is a potent one, but something that you can easily work around. I find that his negative ability can easily be negated if you are willing to take chances, and we are playing Suicide. This deck is famous because it takes chances. Flesh Reaver is a great ground unit, but with the heavy shift towards using critters that own the land, he is just getting those first four Psychatog hits in for you. Skirge has the choices that many of the other guys don’t, he can block the ground team, he can block the flying team, and he swings with a vengeance– He is the fourth Suicide creature.

Unearth: Here it is everyone, feast your eyes on the card that has jumped ship into the deck. Skittering Skirge and Unearth has amazing synergy. Phyrexian Negator and Unearth have amazing synergy. Unearth also brings back your Nantuko shades that died too soon, and even those Hypnotic Specters. Every creature in this deck benefits from Unearth, why run 4 more creatures like War Beast, or Flesh Reaver, when you can just re use the very same ones that have gotten you this far in the first place? Many people cry out that this card takes away from the attitude of Suicide, saying that it slows the deck down, and doesn’t help it win right away. I disagree completely, Unearth is just what Suicide needs to get a decent late game rolling around. I know it is hard to think of this deck surviving until past turn six, but it happens... a lot. As opposed to drawing the stupid ‘extra’ creature that you would have drawn in the past, now you are instead picking the most effective guy you have played this game and are bringing him back into play. Sometimes your need 7 damage fast, and you get the Shade, there will be times you need disruption so you snag the hippie, and there will be times you need 6 points of evasive damage where skirge will shine. There will even be times where you kill your own skirge to bring out a more powerful teammate, and kick skirge back into play with this amazing card. A dead draw? NEVER. When Unearth can’t help you get guys back into play due to Keeper’s swords to plowshares, it cycles. Yes, Unearth will replace itself. Granted you will not have all of your creatures in the grave all the time, Unearth has ways of helping you no matter what. I can not stress more the importance of this card if you are trying to sustain life in this aggressive metagame. You must run four unearths.

Dark Ritual: Instant, add three black to your mana pool. Legend said it best... “If you don’t want to use four Dark Rituals in Suicide Black, then you deserve to be severely beaten by an enraged pack of schoolchildren armed with cudgels.

Duress: Welcome to yet another spell that Black has that is just amazing. This is your case and point as far as disruption goes. You take a look at their hand and remember everything that you just saw, oh yeah, and you get to rip an annoying non creature spell from that very hand. This card is as much of a no brainer as Hymn to Tourach.

Hymn to Tourach: Card advantage powerhouse. Disruptive powerhouse. Cheap powerhouse. A powerhouse– use it.

Demonic Tutor/Demonic Consultation/Yawgmoth’s Will: These cards are restricted for a reason. The first two get you whatever you need to win the game. Both of them let you go through your deck and get the best card you got for every situation. They are a must in a highly competitive environment, simple because you need to keep your opponent on their feet; by getting whichever card is the single most annoying for them to deal with. Yawgmoth’s Will on the other hand works in quite the opposite way; you get to look through your graveyard and rinse, wash, and repeat all the annoying things you have already done. When this card resolves, you win the game. This is another one of those cards that I am advocating with my campaign to make it through the late game, because Suicide CAN do it.

Strip Mine/Wasteland: Being your only non-blank sources of mana in your deck they make for pretty crummy swamps, but they have the extra added bonus of being able to simply rip apart lands. This is a very important part of the disruption going on in the deck, and should always be run to ensure disruption. These are your only non-basics, and take up 4 slots in your deck.

Swamp: This is a basic land, it taps for black. Play at least 16 of these, and even that is pushing it. Most of the cards in the deck require 2 black, so make sure you can do it. Legend mentions in his primer how you should never undercut mana, and he is right, when there is a shade on the board drawing a swamp is just as fun as drawing anything else so go nuts, play a lot of these.

Powder Keg: Here it is, the card I use to replace Sinkhole. There is a whole lot to say in this argument, and I will try to explain my reasons. Sinkhole is a great card to play on the first 2 or 3 turns, and usually better than powder keg on those turns. Once you have moved beyond those turns, and into the mid-game, Sinkhole begins to lose its edge. The card can only help in limited situations to hose specific colors, so basically in the mid-game Sinkhole is useful against decks that run more than 2 colors. In the late gate, Sinkhole is a dead draw. It simply doesn’t do anything. When you have a team on the board, and are trying to find ways to get your guys across without taking that final crushing blow yourself, powder keg is a hero. Dark Ritual is already a hard card to draw late game, why would you want to have 8 dead draws in your deck, when you could instead have four answers? On the flip side, early game kegs may not be devastating always, but that doesn’t mean they don’t get a fair share of awesome plays. They kill moxes, and in match ups against the less common Stompy, Sligh, and Mirror matches, will prove to be exceedingly dominant. During the mid game, they help you to control the board, as well as keep your team on the heavy offensive. In the late game they can get you out of sticky situations, and are certainly not dead draws. As far as GAT goes, the creatures cost 2 and 3. These numbers are not impossible. Powder Keg is clearly the choice in the current metagame, and I stand by it strongly.

Lotus/Jet: These are the two cards that you can draw in your first seven cards to win the game before it even starts. If you start off with a Black Lotus, and your opponent finds his hand to be unpowered, then guess what? You win. Suicide Black is crazy like that.

–Didn’t Make the Cut–

Necropotence: Although incredibly powerful in fields with lots of control, right now we don’t have that. We aren’t trying to win a game against decks that will counter everything we do, we are trying to beat decks that get some counter magic every now and then. I will NEVER tell anyone not to use this card, as it is obviously massively over powered, but I just don’t like to use cards like this. It can either win you the game, or make it that much easier for your opponent to beat you. Often, when playing against necropotence, I don’t sweat because I know that my speed can out run it. My word: don’t play it, but I’ll forgive you if you do.

Fetch Lands: I have tested these out extensively, and have found that although they have an effect on the mana curve, and your ability to top deck better things, they also have negatives that need to stop being ignored. Suicide is only playing swamps, so it doesn’t need to get better lands. Nantuko Shade frowns upon these because they are trying to take away his pump. Your life total also doesn’t like these cards. All in all, the mana curve is rather tight, and doesn’t need to be disrupted by these guys- the deck is strong enough without them, and all they are going to do is complicate some math.

Sinkhole: I have gone over this in the “powder keg” section, but there are additional reasons not aforementioned. I am absolutely terrified to use this card. Misdirection OWNZ Sinkhole. Your opponent can, for the cost of some cards in his hand, save his resources, and destroy yours. This goes against your whole strategy, and ruins you. I have heard many people say that I shouldn’t fear Misdirection, and I should use this card anyway, and those very same people tell me not to use other cards because they are mana drain targets– the whole concept about which cards to play around is warped. Both misdirection and mana drain are going crazy in type 1 right now, but the deck that is currently rivaling as champion is running Misdirection, so I am going out of my way to stop it.

Phyrexian War Beast: Although the next best creature for Suicide decks, Phyrexian War Beast just doesn’t make the cut when I am trying to stabilize the late game. Unearth replaces this guy in the main deck in every circumstance that I see, but the Beast is not to be ruled out. He has a bonus when it comes to Abyss, and isn’t killed by light of day. I urge you to consider him, but not before you consider Unearth.

Flesh Reaver: Used for a long time in many tier one suicide decks, this crazy guy just doesn’t play nice when there are creatures in the format. In any match where you are going to be coming against more than just Morphling, he doesn’t work. Any aggressive decks just laugh at this guy, and you, while they roll over your face. I don’t recommend this guy ever; not even when you know that there is going to be a limited amount of speedy decks, why? Unearth. Why play bad creatures, when you can just play the best ones again?

Shadows/Zombies/Skittering Horror/Pump Knights: Yeah all these guys are cool, and they all have had their day but that day is gone. The Zombies retired when Shade was born, and the Pump knights some time before then. Skittering Horror has always been worse than his brother, and will continue to be. Respectively.. Zombies lose to Shadows which still lose to  Negators, Shade is a Knight on crack, and Horror is not greater than or equal to Skirge. I strongly urge against all of these cards simply because... you wont win if you use them.

–The Sideboard–

Maze of Ith: Yeah, this card is incredible. It stops Togs, it stops dryads, any fishy, and even rootwallas. The only guy that this land isn’t going to own is Morphling, but since Morphling is cheating what could possibly own him anyway? Maze of Ith clearly states that, for free, it will stop a creature from dealing damage to you. This is a damned good thing, I recommend using some if not 4 of these, why? Because it is that damned good.

Smother: Morphling, Smokestack, and TnT aside... this card kills every creature in the format. Even the black ones. In the mirror match with this, Keg, and Unearth you simply can’t lose. On a similar note it does a number to GAT, and doesn’t play too kindly with any of the critters in Ankh Sligh, I recommend this over Edict, because Keeper just isn’t all over the place any more.

Nevinyrral’s Disk: This is one of the two ways that black can take care of enchantments, however, this is the one that actually works. Dystopia is good, but when it really comes down to it, both of these cards are going to get countered at all costs. Assuming either one makes it into play it will have one objective... take out the annoying enchantment. I am not a fan of giving my opponent room to choose, and time to breathe, so I want results now. The disk is going to blow up a lot of things, including your own team. But it is also going to remove any and all enchantments form the game. It is even going to smoke the moxes they have in play. Dystopia says “In time, I will destroy the Enchantment, I will cost you some life, and I will not solve the problem right away, but I will get the job done.” The disk says “I got 23 inch pythons, and I am ready to break everything.” Which card do you want backing you up? The old school, top of the line, quality player, or the Choo-Choo Train that could? Nevinyrral’s Disk is in my sideboard.

The rest of the board is highly optional... It really does depend on your own personal fears, and Meta crisis. Suicide has a decent track record in the field, and is clearly known as the deck that pulls wins out of no where. I go with Bottle Gnomes when I am expecting red spells, War Beasts when I hear rumor of large amounts of aggro, and terror when I hear about the latest Timmy.deck. (Clearly the most annoying match up for Suicide– Timmy beats me more often that most decks.)

So here it is everyone, Brought Suicide, designed by Me, Mike Broughton, with help from Legend Black, and other minor influences. This is best build I can work out for the current metagame, as it stands in April 2003.

//Guys//
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Skittering Skirge

//New Innovations//
4x Unearth
4x Powder Keg

//Usual Suspects//
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Wasteland
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Strip Mine
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Yawgmoth’s WIN

//Team: Play Spells//
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
16 Swamp

//CYBORG!!//
4x Maze of Ith
4x Smother
4x Nevinyrral’s Disk
2x Bottle Gnome
1x Chainer’s Edict

Suicide has a lot of potential, and a lot of important matches that it can win. I find it to have the best results as far as odds against all decks go, there are few it falls over to, and in the same respect few it just beats, but one thing is certain... Suicide is clearly a force to be reckoned with in type one today.

Post comments, let me know what you guys think!

[Rakso]

The mikephoen rule.

[Fever]

Alright, a few things:

1) Powder Keg- Why are you running this given the current metagame? It really isnt very good against GAT, you would be better off running Edicts even though they are misdirectable. I know you feel strongly about it, but it really isnt the answer you are looking for. Also, remember that your own creatures all cost 2 and 3 mana, which means you will most likely be removing some of your own dudes.

2) Unearth- I know some ppl love this card, but running 4 doesnt make much sense to me. Say you get an opening hand with 2 of these plus a Hippie, what then? The Hippie can get Plowed, especially since that card is coming back into favor, and if it stays in play, you have 2 dead cards in your hand. Then there is also those times when you will draw a lone Unearth as your only "creature", which means auto-mulligan. You might want to think about cutting one or two of these because they are situational.

3) Wasteland- You are only running 3, and i hope this is a typo. I dont care if you dont run Sinkholes, but there is no excuse not to play with all 4 Wastes in Suicide.

[Mykeatog]

@Fever:

(I met you in the rain outside the Championships... not sure if you remember who I am.)

Keg- I am finding it to be useful, even at the cost of my guys, but the testing does go on. MY goal is to not be a misdirect machine like other Suicide builds, and the Keg also helps alot in aggro match's where Suicide is supposed to just die.

Unearth- Never dead. Cycles. (I am the person who invented loving this card, I think I am far to biased for reason.) I am also running ONLY one less creature than most builds, if the Unearth were going to be the only creature drop, it wasn't going to be a good enough hand to win anyway, mulligan still goes on.

Wasteland- Strangely enough it was/wasn't a typo. I counted up 61... which was unnexpected and odd, so I had to simply change it to 3x, mainly because I was so confused and didn't want to be running less of anything else, esp. swamps. I am still sorta confused as to why my math went wrong, but fear not, I am gonna get that fourth missle in there!

[Mattdog]

Quote Unearth- I know some ppl love this card, but running 4 doesnt make much sense to me. Say you get an opening hand with 2 of these plus a Hippie, what then? The Hippie can get Plowed, especially since that card is coming back into favor, and if it stays in play, you have 2 dead cards in your hand. Then there is also those times when you will draw a lone Unearth as your only "creature", which means auto-mulligan. You might want to think about cutting one or two of these because they are situational.

hmmmmm .....This is almost true however in a pintch you can cycle then for 2 mana...

Also you might want to look into Innocent Blood it might not be the answer you want but might give you a shot vs your tought matchups...

[MoreFling]

Myke : nice read.

I would agree with matt though that innocent blood is possibly a lot better then powder keg in your deck, since like you said, Keg will hurt your guys anyway, but in the current GAT metagame, blood can be very usefull.

[BillTheDuck]

I really dont see the innocent blood arguement, keg is much better all around. You can play it vs regular aggro and wipe the board and then play your guys, and it DOES work vs groatog. At worst it makes them play around it. Keg really isn't that new of an idea, lots of suis were using it before people decided to go hardcore (a la no removal). Keg comes out early under counters, it gives you an extra few turns and they cant counter it AFTER they've "gone off" because you played it before. If they really wanna kill it now they gotta wish for naturalize. 2:5 tempo advantage and they are running a mana light deck.

On the "unearth cycles for 2" thing: If you dont have 2 mana, dont keep the hand, really. If you have something better to do with that 2 mana, do it. If later you dont, cycle.

[bebe]

I would really like to see Chains in the side. I am currently playing a Type 1 Zombie Burn deck and Chains has proved its worth (BTW, Zombie/Burn uses no discard or Wastes - it is almost pure damage). Nice to see Disks in the side ... I use three as well.
Why Smothers in the side? Why not Edicts? You already have four Kegs and four Disks at your disposal. I use three janky Mazes in the side too. I can burn my opponent out though. I think you need Edicts.
Overall your build is servicable. But please. TnT is close to an autoloss.

And Zombies are not dead! I will prove it next tournament.

[Queequeg]

@Mykeatog.

Firstly I'lld like to say sinkhole is a key card in suicide, both now as it has always been. The convetional way of dealing with misdirection is of course to use Duress. Still I can undestand that in a Misdirection filled metagame Duress will not always be there to save your ass.

However I have never found a problem with a misdirected sinkhole, ok its an unwanted situation but sui has one of the rock soild mana bases in the game and in most situations dosn't even bink at the loss of a single swamp, espically since Sui runs 4 Dark Rituals and artifact mana.

Your oppoenent however will have to trade 2 cards in hand for this privilige, which is card adavantage in your favour. More importantly pitching cards like this puts a big pressure on future Misdirections and Force of Wills, as any Gro player will say casting Misdirections and Force of wills takes in toll surverly on your hand and subseqent counter power espeically if they are running 4 of each.

Sinkholes power in the early game is phenomal, combined with land lost from Hymn a second turn sinkhole can see the end of land drops for the next few turns. This senergy between Hymn and Sinkhole can account for a large percentage of the victories that sui makes even against mono coloured stratergies.

Also you run Hymn, this too can be misdirected. I don't know about you but I would rather lose a swamp than 2 cards randomly from my hand. So can you justify running Hymn and not Sinkhole?

Sinkhole late game is regretably a bad card to draw, but so is Hymn and even Duress. So this arguement dosn't really stand up when you are running 4 of each.

Powder kegs strength is its versitlity, although as already pointed out surves little when drawn late against tog of Dryad. keg is more suited for the mixed metagame where keeper and powered control dominate the typical sea of Sligh and Stompy commonly played by scrubs.

Contagion has greater versility than smother (at the lose of card advantage, but this is sui so needs must) It will do what smother will plus is better in the Sligh, TnT and mirror matches.

If you are currently trying to adapt sui for the TnT/Tog metagame then Edicts and Null Rods should surely be main decked over powder keg, whilst Planar Void, Chains Mephisopheles, Contagion and Masticore should be sideboarded.

I could not comment on using unearth as I have not tried it, but still drawing more than one in the opening stages of the game would realy suck, perhapes 2 or 3 copies is more suiting.

[Fever]

@Mikeatog

I apologize about Unearth. I hadnt actually read the card in ages, i just knew what it did, and i did not remember that it had cycling. That changes a lot of things, it makes it so that its never a dead draw.

About the Wasteland issue, im glad that you agree with me. Suicide is the kind of deck that needs all 5 Strips. Maybe you could cut a Skirge for the last Waste, or maybe even a Keg.

[Magimaster]

Hey mike, nice read.


Few comments on your analysis + your build :

- Skittering Skirge is horrible. I played with this thing for almost a year before I realized what a pile it is. "Synergy with Unearth" is not a good enough excuse to run this thing. I would replace with a utility creature, something like Withered Wretch. 2/2's are nothing to laugh at, and his ability absolutely slaughters Tog, and is pretty effective against Combo and Control. I haven't used Flesh Reaver in years. "Pay 4 life: Destroy target attacking creature" is not a good bargain for Suicide.

- P.Keg main is not really nu-tech, it's been used in hybrid Void/Sui builds since people started to try and combine the two. That being said, Kegs are great, but they just don't replace Sinkhole completely. If worse comes to worse, maybe replace 1 or 2 Sinks with Kegs, but totally replacing them is out of the question. Sinkhole provides Sui another avenue of attack (LD), and a damn effective one at that. Especially now, since people are starting to discover Maze of Ith again.

- I cut 1 Negator from my build. He's not something you wanna see in multiples very often nowadays.

- Maze would be cool if it didn't leave your opponent's creature open to block your attack next turn.

- If you play 100 games, I bet you would only use the Flashback on Chainers maybe 4-5 times. It just doesn't happen very often for it to be worth it. The instant speed of Diabolic would benefit you much better, allowing you to pull any eot tricks or whatever.

- True, Unearth is never dead, but I'd hate seeing multiples of this in my opening hand. I'd cut one down to 3, perhaps...

- 4x Wasteland = Staple. I would cut Consultation before I cut Wasteland. Wastelands are powerful nowadays, with decks starting to rely heavily on non-basic lands (Workshop, Maze) as well as the decks that are land-lite. Their power is retarded, as is their price (as high as $4US!)

- Necropotence must find room. It hands down wins games all by itself. The only matchup this thing ever gets sided out for are against decks packing heavy burn (read: Sligh). If you aren't running Reavers, then this thing must stay in.

- Edicts take care of Tog and co. very nicely. From reading your post, it makes it seem as if you assume they'll always have a MisD in hand. Trust me man, they can't MisD everything!  If they do, call a judge.

- Dystopia is a must. This card is amazing. I see you've replaced it with Disk, but Disk is subpar because it kills your stuff as well. When your opponent drops a Story Circle on you, you wanna get rid of the Circle, but you want to keep your creatures on the board as well. Also, the matches you bring Dystopia in, you're more than likely going to run into your creatures getting StP'd, which provides ample life for your Dystopia's to go to work (I have both a Parfait and Sui deck, and I've seen it from both ends. It makes you wanna cry sometimes).


I have to add more later...

[Mattdog]

Many people seem to have overlooked a very strong tempo change in Cabal Therapy, I have tested this card in a KNOWN meta game and it does wonders for me. The information that it provides is very usefull and I would recomemend cutting Hymn to Tourach for this beast, Yes i do sound like I'm off my rocker but if you are expecting every one to main/side 13 misdirection effects this might be a very good card to look into. It has worked for me but then again I always loved playing Meddling Mages first turn before my opp. has played any thing.

Again if you are playing in a really static metagames then this might be the card for you.


   

[BillTheDuck]

Skirge is better with unearth, like much better, try it. Wretch has no evasion and kills 3 turns slower alone.

I played with mike in our local T1 today playing with EBA.
When we met in swiss he won 2-1 largely due to him being able to use unearths as red blasts as I countered his shades and hippies. I never noticed them being bad for him even though I run FOUR stp. I his ability to will back creatures for B won him one of these games (not only mana wise, but I had that creature maged).

He ended up going 3-0-1 into the top 4 and I made 4th seed at 3-1. He took out U/r phid and met me again in the finals. I beat him 2-1 this time. His deck was streamlined and never shit out on him (mine did that game I lost though, stupid mulligan to 4 with a 1 land hand and get it wasted). Skirge was never a bad thing for him.

Disk does more things that dystopia such as taking back the game from a blue player with active phids (if you play it early they can never gain control without getting their shit wiped clean).

The only things I would change are:
Find room for necro
Fit in waste 4
Use chains instead of mazes (if its not a proxy tournament, just borrow some from rich or chris.)

EDIT: not only is sinkhole bad vs mis d, but its bad vs gush. Wastes can slip under gush tricks and can do instant speed "in response to fetch land" stuff. Like I said earlier, mike beat some keeper at the TMD invitational (which he t8ed in with this deck) and an optimal U/r phid today. The lack of sinkholes didnt really hurt in those matches.

EDIT2: Cutting hymn for cabal therapy cannot and will not happen. EVER. Hymn is card advantage. Its not fair. Its the devil. You cant cut it, period.

[Methuselahn]

nice article.    

While I would agree that sinkholes would be the first thing to come out, I'm not sure 4 Unearth would be what I want.  Yea, the card has incredible synergy with the deck, but it's just not a threat in itself. Because it is directly reliant on other cards, it'll force you to play a longer game.  Suicide doesn't want to do that early.  And early are the crucial turns for this archetype.

As mentioned, Gush and Misdirection murder sinkhole.  Fetch-lands are just as bad tho.  Turn 1 your opponent drops a fetch, next turn an island, setting up their 2 mana for a counter with no real chance to destroy a land.  This can hurt just as bad as MisD.

Quote Powder Keg: Here it is, the card I use to replace Sinkhole.

ok. 4 though?  How does 4 Powder Kegs stand up to one of its' hardest matchups: TNT?  4 Kegs in the maindeck and 4 Disks in the side just seems rather redundant too.  

Dystopia has won me more matchups vs parfait than it has lost for me.  I would think this is a better choice.  Drawn early enough, you can drop it with a ritual and keep it in play even after it has taken out the sole white or green permanent.  The threat of losing the permanent to dystopia will buy you enough time to hymn/duress it away.   I'd play these over Disk if you already have 4 MD Powder Kegs.

[Mykeatog]

Today I battled a lot of though matches with my deck, and went 3-0-1 through swiss, and went to the finals where EBA took me out. I played a couple of matches that I hadn't yet played and came to a few conclusions when battling against these.

Parfait: This deck is so cool. I find that I manage to win the games if I can get a decent first turn start. This match is based off disruption capabilites, and really can come down to the wire. I managed to pull off two quick wins in the last ten minutes of the match, which taught me one thing: When parfait is causing a 30 minute long game, Suicide has lost which means it is time to scoop into the next game. This wasn't something I did today, but something I plan on doing in the future, I won the match right before extra turns started, due to insane luck of draw.

EBA: This deck is quite simply a battle of who gets the best cards the fastest. I won against it's creator in swiss, and lost to him in the finals. This is just the third match these two have played against each other, but it still something that is a huge problem. I fear this deck as much as TnT, because Suicide doesn't just have a clear advantage here.

U/Rphid: I played this deck in the semi finals, and managed to pull away with the win. The match was really Unearth vs. Control Magic, but due to the cheap cost, Unearth jsut stepped up to the plate like usual. This card is my personnal hero.

Mirror: I played a mirror as well, and jsut reminded myself that Unearth wins the mirror match all day. While they are busy doing complicating creature trading math, I am simply waiting for them to kill my guy so I can put it back into the field.

Now onto the host of comments recieved...

Sinkhole: The arguments that are being presented for Sinkhole are the very arguments I used to talk about why I don't use it. I completely understand that it has been a staple in Suicide for years, and that in the early game it can win, but I strongly disagree with any statement that says that losing your swamp is okay. I know that the mana curve it tight, and often I find myself with more than enough land to deal, but when I get to go an additional turn slower than my opponent, it just proves that the card is a failure. For the third time, I will never say that this is a BAD card, but I will continue to advocate that it isn't the best choice in our metagame. Another argument says that Hymm to Tourach is just as bad, and is just as much of a target for Misdirection, but something was forgotten here. Making me discard cards doesn't always suck, because Unearth just kicks the dudes back into play for a black. On the same note, if they slam the Unearth into the grave, I still got the dude, and I still get to play him with his awesome win power. There was also mention that somehow the use of a sinkhole on my own land netted me card advantage, well this is terribly incorrect; Ialthought card advantage isn't granted, it clearly gives my opponent board advantage. Something that I have noticed is that many people are considering that I have taken out the Sinkholes for Unearths, when that is not the case. Unearth has been an essentila part of my build for over a year now, but Powder Keg main is the new threat. Yes, Powder Keg breaks the tempo that Suicide is used to, but everything else is changing in the meta, so I don't see why Suicide can't too. This version, without the Sinkhole, and with both Unearth and Keg can live to the long game. Duress and Hymm to Tourach find themselves usefull all the time late game. When a player and I are trading guys and counters, duress is always a way to get one step ahead of the game. This works on turn one, and on turn 15, the same can be said for Hymm. When drawing any of these cards too late against a Dryad or Tog, they might not generate a win, but honestly... last time I checked drawing sinkhole when a tog was on the board, is comparible to shooting oneself in the face.

Away from the major debate and onto another issue that was brought up... Skittering Skirge. Not only is he the synnergetic powerhouse in this deck, he flies, he swings he deals damage. There are times when he even teaches me how to play magic during a game with his reminder text "Over extending is bad." I would never consider this card horrible, and would never stop running him for anything that the deck has evolved beyond. An entire year ago Legend taught us one thing... 2/2 for B is not good enough, so 2/2 for BB isn't going to change things, regardless of his ability. This guy isn't in the deck only because of its interaction with Unearth, it is in the deck because it is in the best four creatures to run. No matter how many times i use maze, this guy still flies over the stranded non-attackers.

Drawing multiple Unearths in opening hand isn't a bad thing... it simply means that you have the most options, and can be the most free with playing yoru creatures. WHo cares about counter magic when you get yoru guy anyway? Always run 4, always. I would never advise any less, no matter what metagame, or type. That is right-- T2, use four. Unearth isn't reliant on anything it has two lines of text... "Bring a cool guy back into play and win, or draw a new card, likely to be something useful in this awesome deck." Neither of those texts are reliant.

Dystopia allows my opponent to figure out his own schedule of events, disk says... I will dictate the tempo, and I decide what is going to happen. Dystopia might come out one turn faster, but in most matches is jsut far too slow. Would you rather play a card that beat parfait over 6-7 turns, or a card that beats parfait after your next untap step? Disk does so much more than this, and is useful all over the metagame, this is just an example that was mentioned.

These are the comments I have about the things posted so far, but please continue to post I am really interested in seeing if anyone has something to say that could change my mind, or help my deck... one last though...

I recommend using Necro but, this card and I do not get along. Everytime I use it- I get screwed. Me and this evil spell jsut aren't meant ot be int he same deck, which is fine, but everyone else... add this bad boy to your stuff, cause he is the king of drawing for legal black cards.

[Queequeg]

@ Mykeatog,

With all due restect I feel your arguement that Hymn is currently a viable choice in a Misdirection ready Meta but not sinkhole is unconvincing.

Quote Another argument says that Hymm to Tourach is just as bad, and is just as much of a target for Misdirection, but something was forgotten here. Making me discard cards doesn't always suck, because Unearth just kicks the dudes back into play for a black. On the same note, if they slam the Unearth into the grave, I still got the dude, and I still get to play him with his awesome win power

Consider a misdirected Hymn, You are forced to Drop a Swamp and a critter. You have now lost a land and lost your attacker. Compare to a misdirected sinkhole.


[/QUOTE]There was also mention that somehow the use of a sinkhole on my own land netted me card advantage, well this is terribly incorrect; Ialthought card advantage isn't granted, it clearly gives my opponent board advantage.

Sinkhole= Misdirection+pitched card

Misdirection and Force of will, as do you picthable casting cost lead to Bad card advantage. Your opponent has traded 2 cards for my 1.

As for permanent advantage, Sui does not win through permanent advantage, niether does Tog, both have low permanent counts. This arguemment although correct has dubious value.

Powder keg has been included in sui for a while as a nice soultion to Sligh and stompy. It however dosn't provide an answer to Tog or a Jugdenought. So why are you main decking it in a meta where you expect TnT and Tog to be dominant? Inocent blood is a much better solution to both, and can't be misdirected, plus would work with your beloved Unearths

Unearth cost 2 to cycle. isn't better just not to draw unwanted Unearths.

Disk is to slow. keg does mostly does what Disk will do only quicker the remainder is done better by Dystopia. Parfait has a better chance at stopping you casting disk than Dystopia.

Edit:spelling Error

[BillTheDuck]

You also have to take into account that hymn is much better than sinkhole. Its comparable to the siding out stroke/twist vs Gro decks but keeping in Recall (see the worst matchups thread).

Unearth goes like this. If its the only spell you have to cast in your hand, then you probably have a creature in the graveyard. If you have other things to do, you do them first and cycle when you have nothing. Unearth was effectively his 5-8s on his shades and hippies vs me. If you have a creature or two in your hand to start, unearth wont be dead. If you dont, dont keep the hand.

Misdirected hymns are 3 times worse than misdirected sinkholes, succesfully resolved hymns are 4 times better than succesfully resolved sinkholes.

[Queequeg]

Yes Hymn is more powerful disruption than sinkhole, but both are synegistic when run together, so Hymn is 4 times better than Sinkhole but both Hymn and sikhole and 2 times better still when run togther because you attack resources on multiple frounts, rather like pOx.

[BillTheDuck]

So play pox.

This isnt a land destruction deck. 5 strips, 12 forms of hand disruption (4 permanant) is plenty. Kegs can hit the moxes too if you want to count that.

Its good to question new builds and strategies, so I like that there are people of the other opinion, but the fact is, Mike consistantly does well with this deck in a metagame where no one does well with black.

@ Disk: Honestly, if you wanna use the Parfait example, if you play dystopia they have 2-4 turns to find their disenchant effect before they lose the enchantment they wanna keep out (such as protecting humility/story circle by saccing excess taxes). With disk they have 1 turn period. If disk is popped, parfaits day is completely ruined. If you wanna use the example of any other deck out there, disk wins because it can be used against not white decks.

Also, my name is Bill. \n\n

[Magimaster]

Quote (BillTheDuck @ April 06 2003,16:08)@ Disk: Honestly, if you wanna use the Parfait example, if you play dystopia they have 2-4 turns to find their disenchant effect before they lose the enchantment they wanna keep out (such as protecting humility/story circle by saccing excess taxes). With disk they have 1 turn period. If disk is popped, parfaits day is completely ruined. If you wanna use the example of any other deck out there, disk wins because it can be used against not white decks.

Just a side note about Parfait and the whole Dystopia/Nev's Disk thing...


Karmic Justice absolutely owns global destruction effects. They are staple in Parfait's sideboard.

Dystopia gets around the Justice. This has won me games before with my sui deck, and made me lose a few while I was playing my Parfait...

Honestly though, what other enchantments/Artifacts does Sui fear other than :

Story Circle/CoP:Black
Moat
Compost
Light of Day
The Abyss (doesn't count )
Ensnaring Bridge
Worship

Bridge can be taken care of via. Keg, but everything else is what Dystopia was meant for.

Disk is just overkill...

[BillTheDuck]

Quote The Abyss (doesn't count )

totally counts

it fears active phids.
if fears randomness.
its never bad to get a second turn disk vs smokestack either.

A sidenote, Hadley sent 5 to CT today for a tournament (not one of rays) where we put 4 in the top 4.
Mike and Brian (mykatog and hulk3rules) are playing in the finals as I type this. Granted it probably wasnt the hardest metagame, but I did hear there was some keeper and tog going around. Winner gets a ruby, loser gets 50 bucks.

PS-My last name is Awesome.

[Magimaster]

I really don't see the "ph34r" in phids. Each and every one of your creatures can manhandle 'ol phiddy like a schoolgirl. I've never had a problem with phids, playing with Sui that is.

Anyways, I'll step back for now and see if someone else has anything to say about the stuff being posted here. I'm still not sold on Unearths, but I went and dug them out of my common box in preparation for some testing.

But I'll stand by Dystopia > Disk (in Sui) anyday.

[BillTheDuck]

Test them. I can definitely see dystopia being better sometimes, but disk isnt shit. And its not like parfait is that prevelant right now.

Also, mike takes brian 2-0 (this sui vs urphid).

My phid comment probably came from the games I play with him (with EBA) where I get a few active phids with insane removal backup.

EDIT: I think one of the main points for disk over dystopia is that parfait and moat are rarely played, while smokestack is becoming more popular.

[Queequeg]

In my opion no one has given a convincing argueement for not running Sinkhole.

The main arguement for not running sinkhole is it can be misdirected, by the same people seem to be runnning Hymn, and reconsise that a misdirected Hymn is massivly more damaging than a sinkhole. The arguement is basically Hymn is so good Iam gonna run it anyway regardless of the fact that if its misdirected you basically lose the game. Thats crap. Come on theres challenging leading builds with logic, then theres challenging leading builds because you like the picture on Unearth.


As for powder keg being its replacement because it can destroy artifact mana sources, then you should be running Null rod. Ok keg is more versilitle but we are talking about a Tog dominated meta, were Keg can't Kill the Hulk quick enough.

If any card is to replace Sinkhole is should be Null Rod, which was originally main decked alongside Sinkhole.

As for Nev's Disk no one has said that the sui player loses all there perments too, Disk has really lost it place in sui since the release of keg and the restriction of Necropotence. (although Skeletal Scrying Makes a tempting offer)Plus if you disk away enchanments the parfait player will find or replenish them back. If the opponent has muliple land taxes on table you have probably lost anyway.


As for the abyss, you would conventially run masticore, and sideboard Warbeast.

[Ric_Flair]

Mike,  

    Excellent post.  I tried the Unearth this weekend and they are amazing.  I wish I would have seen the whole post before sleeving up my deck.  As far as the Sinkholes are concerned, I am still in the camp that uses them.  So often they cripple decks.  With GAT running just a few more lands than MisD. effects I feel any LD is warranted at a cost of BB.  Still, Keg is a very good anti-creature solution.  Finally, 4 Disks is way too many.  That is a lot of tempo given up in favor of disk, given that you tap 4 and you wait a turn.  I think Core is a better creature kill solution.  So maybe I would run 2 Disks and 2 Cores.  I can't tell you how many times Cores in the board won me games.  Also I really like 2-3 Diabolic Edicts in the board as well.  Just some suggestions.  Unearth, Yes! Keg for Sinkhole, maybe.  4 Disks, Too many.  

Final thought:  With a Will cast, an Unearth in the 'yard, and a creature all your summons cost B!  I didn't figure that out until this weekend.  It rocked.

[BillTheDuck]

Conventionally, if you were to replace sinkhole it would be with null rod, but this isn't conventional. Its supposed to be evolution.

Sinkhole is bad to be misdirected, thats part of the arguement.
Sinkholes are bad VS fetch lands that almost every deck runs right now.
Sinkholes are bad vs gush, another card that is running all over the environment.

Hymn is still being run for the same reason ancestral recall stays in against decks with misdirection, or morphling makes the cut even with mana drain in the environment.

Keg is better than rod because it has secondary uses and isn't completely dead in any matchup.

Magimaster made some good points about the dystopia thing vs parfait, but disk is still good enough in that matchup, and parfait doesnt get played that much. SMOKESTACK, a deck that's main theory is permanant advantage, hates disk. Disk also has random uses that come up pretty often.

My personal SB would include:
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Disks
3 Bottle Gnomes (these plus unearths help the sligh matchup a lot)
0 Mazes
as differences to Mikes

[Tamer]

I've tried the powder kegs over the sinkholes and I was not satisfied
In a 7 round tournament, I sided out the kegs in the 7 rounds
The disk however where very good, it killed plenty of stuff
Sinkholes are only bad when your opponent plays 4 misdirection
In many games I wished that my kegs where diabolic edict,
Kegs are great agaisnt Stompy, Sligh and similar aggro builds
but against other decks they are very sub-optimal
So I think that they belong to the sidebaord

Diabolic editct is good against most of the decks and I think it should be maindecked, IMO its better than smother because you can kill anything including untargetables and pro: black and TnT's creatures

I think Graveyard hate is great also, so planar void should be sideboarded or if your playing unearth they whould be crypts or withered wretch

I havent tested unearth yet by I wll do so in the folowing days

[Mykeatog]

As Nick has been agrueing in favor of me for the last two days, I don't have much more to add, but I do have some additional thoughts...

SINKHOLE
There are reason to play this card. I will not run it, as I do fear Mis-D, and fetchlands are all over the place, and I don't want ot draw it aside from the opening hand. However, this card is extremely powerful, and anyone who does use it isn't a bad player, they sare simply playing regular suicide. This version of the deck isn't the same, it has a different functional purpose, and comes up with different results. I have spoken with Legend a little, and he still believes that the card is important, and that is okay. His primer, and deck, are all about winning in the first five turns. My deck, and the card choices within, isn't looking for the same result; I still want to win, but I will sacrifice the ability to destroy my opponent to make sure that in the long game, I can win. IF you are going to play sinkhole, don't run this version of the deck, cause it isn't going to work out for you.

POWDER KEG
The more I use it the more I love it, Powder keg leads you to vctory over "broken starts" and over most aggro, this card is a maindeck- stayer-player, and pimp for me.


...anyway...
So yesterday I piloted the original decklist that I show here, only modifications being... I played the fourth wasteland over a swamp, in "Barrins Comics adn Cards" which I think was in Millford, CT. Anyway... The only loss I had all day was to a sligh deck, cause sligh can do that to you. In the top eight I played an EBA looking deck, but nothing like the true build, in top4, I played vs. Brought Sui, and won (Powder keg main deck beats Sinkhole maindeck in the mirror.), and in the finals I pulled off a victory over Hulk3Rules, piloting U/Rphid.
I won a Mox Saphire. There should be a tournament report in that section at some point tonight, or tommorow.

[suicide_slushy]

I have to ask what is the EBA deck?

[Jacob Orlove]

Do a search for "EBA" or "Eon Blue Apocalypse" and you'll find it.