Full English Breakfast

[SummenSaugen]

Quote No Morphling in your build, and no maindeck Cephalid Inkshrouder. How is Phage untargetable now? As it is right now, your deck can do NOTHING against Maze of Ith.

Inkshrouder.  Duh.

Quote You have ONE Phage in your build. Where are you going to get another Phage to survival?

Can you count?

Quote Let's see. Tropical Island - produces blue and GREEN. Bayou - produces black and GREEN. Cities of Brass - makes ANY color, including GREEN. Fetchlands - they fetch dual lands that produce GREEN mana. Survival costs 1G - which means ANY land and a Mox allows a first turn Surivial of the Fittest. It isn't that hard...

This doesn't affect ANYTHING I just said, did you even read my post?  I said you CAN'T SURVIVAL MORE THAN ONCE!  1G is one survival activation NEXT TURN, that sucks especially when you want to use something as mana hungry as Morphling/Ability/Hellion/Naught over Akroma/Phage.

For the record, here's the exact list I posted.  Feel free to double check my post previously and look at the list there as well, as you obviously didn't before.

Quote 4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Volrath's Shapeshifter
4x Unearth

2x Phage the Untouchable
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Cephalid Inkshrouder
1x Psychatog
1x Quirion Ranger

4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy

1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
2x Sylvan Library
2x Lim-Dul's Vault

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Roots
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Bayou
4x Tropical Island
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest
2x City of Brass
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald

[Queequeg]

Wow cheers guys this is so help full, thanks alot Solaran_X I'll get one to the weakness of my black pudding build straight away. This rocks

[SummenSaugen]

The most help you can possibly get on this deck is from ill_dawg down in unreg.  I suggest you run a search for him, he's done a lot with FEB and he's also in the unreg contact thread.

[Solaran_X]

The most help he could get on this deck would probably be from Paul Barclay - after all, he CREATED the deck.

And my comparision was between my standard FEB deck and his "Black Pudding", not your's. My points where against his deck and my deck, not your's. Maybe you should read a post before you respond, Summen.

[SummenSaugen]

Hmmm.

Quote No Morphling in your build, and no maindeck Cephalid Inkshrouder. How is Phage untargetable now? As it is right now, your deck can do NOTHING against Maze of Ith.

Quote You have ONE Phage in your build. Where are you going to get another Phage to survival?

If you respond to me, you're talking to me.  Perhaps there wouldn't be reading issues if you wrote correctly in the first place.

[Queequeg]

Oooooooooo handbags, arch at her   only joking

Anyway I read the ill_dawg posts you suggested SummenSaugen. Thankyou.

I thought that after considering making so many changes that a new version needs to be drafted up. Bear in mind that "Black Pudding" is only in the devolping stages, and hasn't been tested yet so comparing it to your tournement worn deck is hardly fair.

As usual I will post the deck list and make some comments on certain cards that require it. It  is worth noting that the deck is only upowdered beacause of budget reasons.

Black Pudding
2003 May
By Queequeg

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Krosan Reclaimation

1 Phage, the untouchable
1 Akroma Angel of Wrath
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder
1 Hypnox
1 Genisis
1 Squee, Goblin Nobob

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress

2 Sylvan Library
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Quiron Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
4 Tropical Island
4 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Iam not concerned right now with the sideboard, I just want to get the main deck up to speed, but needless to say it would include enchantment, artifact and creature removal.

Card choices

Krosan Reclaimation: The more I look at this card the more it seems made for this deck. I see SummenSaugen decklist runs 4 Unearths which despite being a good card in this deck bends over to reclaimation, let me explain

Unearth can only reanimate 3 cc creatures i.e. shapeshifter, tog and creature mana to play not to hand and so losing tricks with survival . A single Reclaimation however can return up to any 4 creatures to your library.

Reclaimation can return non creature cards to your library, in doing so can alow you to quickly remove cards stacked above your top creature and reuse your duress' in the same move.

Reclaimation has flashback and so can be removed from the graveyard iself, meaning it will not sit concealing a creature

Reclaimation is an istant and can reshuffle your threats back into the library in response to Tormods crypt. plus can be cast to remove destroyed permanents from the top of your graveyard during your attack, like a wasted city of brass like mentioned earlier.

Casting costs of both Unearth and Reclaimation are comparable. Although Reclaimation is more intensive to reanimate countered Shapeshifters but it has greater versitilty.

Phage: I see no reason to include 2 Phage, the only way of removing phage is via graveyard destruction, with 4 Reclaimation this is difficult. If phage was removed then I could still beat with a fatty and cephalid inkshrouder. After playtesting this may prove harder then its sounds.

Cephalid Inkshrouder: Provides and answer to anything that with stop Akroma.

Sylvan Library: This replaces Impulse in the original build. With 16 shuffle effects you should be able to regularly change the top 3 cards, plus Sylvan is a permanent and keep away form the graveyard.

Wasteland/Strip Mine: These destroy Maze of ith, Library of Alex. manlands and such.

Qurion ranger: This is only included because its ability to protect my duals against wastelands.

Cards that didn't make the cut.

Reya, dawnbringer: Well with nothing to reanimate each turn she is piontless.

Crater hellion/Woodripper/Druid Lyrist ect: these types of utility cards have been sent to the sideboard.

Just a last note on the name of the deck "Black Pudding"  Phage is black, and black pudding is a English fried breakfast ingrediant made of blood, fat and other unspeakable things and vagly reseambles a burger in apearence. ( just in case nobody got why?) its a pritty obscure reference in is tradotional to a limited region in North England

[Igor]

What I find funny when I read these posts is that you guys are mostly arguing about what happens when everything goes right.  Let's all agree that in the event that you manage to drop a survival and a shifter into play, the morphling/hellion/dreadnought or the phage plan are the same, they both lead to a win in 99,8% of the time, the 0,2% being varying reasons depending on which combo you run.  In my opinion, what makes the combo better is how things work when they are not going as planned.  For example, if I am able to resolve a shifter and find no survival.  In that case I think that I prefer a dreadnought to a phage as the dreadnought is virtually unblockable and kills almost as fast in the case there are no blockers.  If I have no shifter and no survival well the Akroma can be forgotten, it's a dead draw, phage also is close to one, but so are the dreadnoughts (which should be ran in pairs, always), yet I would rather draw a morphling than an Inkshrouder, that guy is just bad if you do not have the combo, but morphling is pretty good if you can cast it, he will win you games.  I would also not mind hard casting an hellion (regardless of the comments saying that it should never be in your plans to cast it...) against many decks it's a 3 turn clock and I tend to like these things, against others it will kill a fattie or slow them down.

In my humble opinion the dreadnought is just better than phage for many reasons, but since phage is out many people seem to think I am wrong.  I personally think that it is even less vulnerable than phage (except for kegs, but for everything else it's better or equal in vulnerability).  The way I tend to look at decks is not to focus on what happens when I win and see if I can make that win 99,9% reliable instead of 99,8%, this is useless.  In all scenarios you discuss, you have survival into play, well let me tell you if you have survival you are going to win anyway, if it does'nt work this turn, well it will next turn who cares? But if the deck fails to do what it should, that's where you should check to improve your chances of winning.  In that case, phage won't do it while the other combo will...

[TracerBullet]

Two biggest reasons Hellion/Dreadnought loses out:

1. If you have a Shifty down, Hellion is a mediocre draw at best.  3/3-5/1 is ok.  A 6/6 Flying nigh unkillable doesn't tap to attack first strike trample is a beatstick.

2. You don't lose the Shifter if the combo is disrupted.  Take this for example...

You've just spent 7 mana (or 6 and a card) to summon down a flying, untargetable, trampling Shifter dreadnought when your opponent  decides it's a good idea to kill a birdy.  Whoops, uh oh, you just lost seven mana, a shifter, and a mana producer for next turn.  With Phage, the worst that will happen is your Shifter is tapped and you've lost a few survival targets.  Keeping that Shifter on the table is key.


Biggest reason Hypnox eats Palichron for breakfast (no pun intended)
1. Swords to Plowshares.  A Shifter that comes into play with a Palinchron on top doesn't net you anything if he gets StP'd with the untap on the stack.  Hypnox will remove those cards no matter what your opponent does, which is huge.  It allows you to bypass the best critter kill in the game.

[Lord of the Goats]

i definately agree with igor. when everything goes right you win either way; it's when things don't that it matters. once you get survival you should win... no matter if it takes 1 shifter or 4, it's not like getting a shifter is particularly difficult with survival. besides, when it really comes down to it, birds still suck, wastelands suck, keg sucks (moxen), edicts suck... just about everything sucks.

[DarkCrusader]

Solarian have you really tested it? The Phage/Inkshrouder combo is so much better. And the main reason is disruption.  

Sligh has plenty of burn, mono-black has wastelands and other goodies, mono-blue plays kegs. Which is also a great reason not to play off color moxen. Mox monkey becomes 1 mana disruption in the combo.

All in all, with Phage/Inkshrouder, you won't lose the Shifter if the combo gets disrupted. The Hellion/Dreadnaught, they just bought a 4 for 1 at least.

I concider myself very experienced in playing FEB. Although in the past I have never got credit, I came up with Inkshrouder. Also I was one of the first to play psychatog in my main deck. Just thought you would all like to know.

p.s. If you got masks, venguir mask is best FEB build possible. So many threats with so many answers.

[Solaran_X]

Vengeur Masque is not a build of Full English Breakfast. Technically, a deck using Phage and Shapeshifters isn't really Full English Breakfast either.

Why?

As I said before - Breakfast is about fat. It has been since it was created, and it will be until Magic dies. Both Vengeur Masque and "Black Pudding" are more variant Survival decks than Full English Breakfast.

To answer your question - yes, I have tested Phage and her little combo. I still prefer Dreadnought. In an equal number of games, I won more with Dreadnought than I did with Phage. Why? Because sometimes ( more often than not, it seems ), I have more than one Shifter in play. If I used Phage solely, they'd all die at once. When I got more than one Shifter in play, all I have to do is Survival up a single Dreadnought and swing.

[Igor]

DarkCrusader, your argumentation about disruption does not really hold if you ask me, I believe disruption to be as much of a problem if not worst when playing the phage combo.  The thing is that you should not do the hellion trick when your opponent has a wasteland, get a dreadnought, I think he is enough of a beat stick in itself.  I won't combo ou if my opponent is playing sligh and I have a bird in play, there is no point in that... in that case dreadnought is superior as if you play Inkshrouder, what will you do, if you drop Inkshrouder on top make it untargettable, depending on his hand he may burn it to force more discard and you are screwed, if not he let resolve you play phage kill bird afterward, you lost 2 cards and 2 of your combo is in the grave, that's bad.  If you play phage directly to keep your Inkshrouder for later when your combo can resolve, he blocks phage and burn it, your lost a combo piece, a shifter and still have a bird in play, that's bad.  I just do not see how disruption is less affected when playing phage, actually I really believe it's worst if you and your opponent make the correct plays.  This example was about sligh, maybe it's not as played as before, but it pretty much works for many decks including non-swords creature removal or wasteland and creatures.  If this happens, you lose the Inkshrouder (which I hope you run one) and a phage (which is best in pairs I believe), so you gotta find a krosan to bring your Inkshrouder back.

Also if running phage, I think you are foced to use what I consider suboptimal cards such as Krosan reclamation, to me, I believe Reya to be far superior as a graveyard stacker and recuring engine.  It does not work with phage, but if you've got a shifter in play reya can recur your hellion (+3/-3 die) and dreadnought (bring it to play, cannot pay the 12 power cost so it goes back on top of graveyard), reya can also win games without the combo by simply bringing many creatures back, the krosan reclamation do not seem to work very well, but again I have no testing whatsoever with this card, so I may be wrong...

[TracerBullet]

Krosan Reclaimation is complete and utter crap.  I'm sorry, but somebody had to say it.  Genesis takes care of all your recursion needs, and doesn't require Survival to be good.

[RJPARJ]

I would just like to say that the diruption when using Phage for the win, is not as bad as the dreadnought.  Just because you end up not losing your VS when they do waste land or sumthing and u can go and get another phage after the resolve whatever they do.  so you can still combo them out in that turn and not have to get a dreadnought to win.  Also i would like to agree with DarkCrusader and say that anyone who can get the masks should just give up on FEB and go with Vegeur Masque.  It has been dpoing well with the couple of people playing it, And its a really strong deck that can go either mask or FEB.  Which also helps for an element of surprise after sideboarding.

These are just my thoughts

[SummenSaugen]

Quote Why? Because sometimes ( more often than not, it seems ), I have more than one Shifter in play. If I used Phage solely, they'd all die at once. When I got more than one Shifter in play, all I have to do is Survival up a single Dreadnought and swing.

Having multiple shifters out isn't necessary with Phage FEB.  This is a good thing, granted global removal isn't very present right now but things like Balance are still around that can catch you with your pants down.  Meanwhile, Phage combo plays nice with only one creature, and should something happen, you can set up the combo again without overextending.

The argument made on disruption hurting Hellionaught more than Phage combo is 100% true.  Losing a shapeshifter hurts Hellionaught FEB a LOT, because at the moment most of the people that refuse to update are also refusing to use Unearth, which would make this situation much easier to handle.  "Oops, I fucked up, I pay a black and a green and just win now." is a pretty healthy way to finish a game.

[DarkCrusader]

Quote (Solaran_X @ May 24 2003,07:02)Vengeur Masque is not a build of Full English Breakfast. Technically, a deck using Phage and Shapeshifters isn't really Full English Breakfast either.

Why isn't it? It uses all the utilty creatures as Breakfast. And if you want to talk fat, I think playing 4 Dreadnaughts for 1 mana a piece is fat.

FEB has gone through serious changes. For example why do people still play Reya? In the year and a half that I been playing the deck, I hardly ever once got Reya. What can she bring back? Not dreadnaughts so whats left?

Survival + Shifter = Thats the end of that chapter!

[Diablos8]

Vengeur Masque uses a lot more stuff for Mask, and it focuses a lot more on Mask. Vengeur Masque in my mind a Mask deck with a Survival backbone acting as a backup plan.


I also removed Reya from my build. I'd rather just win than sit around trying to recur stuff.

[Queequeg]

If you think mask is so great go and play mask.
This is my post and it is about phage in FEB not naught
Reya is utter crap in the phage build.

Reclaimation is good, because it means you don't automatically lose to toromds crypt. I havn't run them but I have same Unearth and intend to try them both out in the build.

if survival dosn't hit play you gonna lose anyway, combo dies to disruption to don't even bother with that line of thought

some advice on my deck would be nice.

[Diablos8]

Quote (Queequeg @ May 25 2003,03:44)if survival dosn't hit play you gonna lose anyway, combo dies to disruption to don't even bother with that line of thought

It's not an auto-loss without Survival, but it's tough to pull off. There have been many games where I've pulled them out(quite fast as a matter of fact) where I drop down turn 2-3 Shapeshifter and then discard Phage/Dreadnought(depending on the build I was using, but you get the idea) and just win from there.

On the note of the "disrupt the combo" that's where Unearth comes in. This is also a reason why I run the Dreadnought version. If you have the top card of your library as the Dreadnought, then say the opponent Wasteland you, you Unearth back the Dreadnought, it dies, then goes back to the top of your library. The only bad thing about Dreadnought is it can't be the top card when you cast Shifty, and it's Smotherable.

[psyduck]

this is the survival mask deck i made circa february 2003, i was told that something called vengeur mask was similar to this; however , both decks (mine and vengeur mask) are preceeded by the survival-mask designs much earlier  (almost  two years ago) by an ill-famed #bdchatter (this was just before themanadrain started up) named Porc who had intersting ideas.

        1 Savannah
        1 Underground Sea
        1 Taiga
        1 Volcanic Island
        1 Bayou
        1 Badlands
        3 Tropical Island
        1 Bloodstained Mire
        4 Wooded Foothills
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Time Walk
        1 Sylvan Library
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Meddling Mage
        1 Uktabi Orangutan
        1 Monk Realist
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Wonder
        1 Gorilla Shaman
        1 Flametongue Kavu
        1 Avalanche Riders
        1 Quirion Ranger
        1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Genesis
        1 Phage the Untouchable
        1 Anger
        2 Volrath's Shapeshifter
        4 Birds of Paradise
        4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
        4 Illusionary Mask
        4 Survival of the Fittest

the deck plays into the strengths of both survival and mask and a variety of different mana situations. Sometimes you can start casting birds under the mask, and its not a "quick" deck, as it is "Sudden".

Monoblack mask is "quick". It frantically finds the pieces of the mask, throws a disruption or two your way, and happily sends the naught your way.

This deck is more "sudden". It develops, and without warning, you oftentimes either have double hasted dreadnaughts coming your way, or a hasted flying phage. The meddling mage is in there because with the respludant amount of colored mana allows for it, it allows you to name the most feared card, which is often either balance or a swords. Most of the time it is just tossed into the graveyard, but the variety of survival based control is present here as well.

Sometimes you can just win with the utility creatures alone, you can develop a full board position with birds anger/ranger,
and set up the one hit kill next turn, or you can go for a control lock down with ftk/riders/gorilla shaman, an FTk is always potent in the right circumstance, even in type 1 without a doubt.

[TracerBullet]

Quote The only bad thing about Dreadnought is it can't be the top card when you cast Shifty

 It will not apply any "as comes into play" text on the creature card, however. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]


Dreadnought's ability is checked upon the resolution of whatever is bringing it into play.  Shapeshifter is not a copy of anything until it actually hits play, as per the rules of state based effects.  As a result, you can play a Shapeshifter with Dreadnought as the top card and not have to sacrifice anything.

[Spizzard]

Quote (TracerBullet @ May 25 2003,11:39)It will not apply any "as comes into play" text on the creature card, however. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]


Dreadnought's ability is checked upon the resolution of whatever is bringing it into play.  Shapeshifter is not a copy of anything until it actually hits play, as per the rules of state based effects.  As a result, you can play a Shapeshifter with Dreadnought as the top card and not have to sacrifice anything.

So how do I explain that this works with Hypnox?  Wouldn't that be the same thing?



Also, have you considered Psychatog as a graveyard stacker?  You can remove the 'rubbish' till you get to a Phage or something usefull.

[SummenSaugen]

The list I posted contains Psychatog.  He's invaluable for keeping annoyances like wasteland (i.e. how you still win despite what people think stops you) from stopping the combo.  Also, he has good synergy with Unearth.

[TracerBullet]

Explain it like this.



Dreadnought's ability happens while the Dreadnought is still resolving.  Shifter isn't anything besides a creature card while it's still resolving.  Hypnox's ability happens when the Shapeshifter actually comes into play, and his copy ability applies at all times that he's in play.  A bomb in the air does nothing, a bomb on the ground explodes.

[carl]

Quote (Diablos8 @ May 25 2003,02:26)Vengeur Masque uses a lot more stuff for Mask, and it focuses a lot more on Mask.

That's true.

Quote Vengeur Masque in my mind a Mask deck with a Survival backbone acting as a backup plan.

No, it is still a Survival deck, but with a gimmick that lets you steal some games because you get Mask and Naught in the first two turns. If survival hits, you will win the game most of the time. If you resolve Mask, this isn't enough to win: you need a Dreadnought in hand, and a Smother of Swords to Plowshares means you need to find another one.

@psyduck:

Quote
however , both decks (mine and vengeur mask) are preceeded by the survival-mask designs much earlier  (almost  two years ago) by an ill-famed #bdchatter (this was just before themanadrain started up) named Porc who had intersting ideas.

Do you happen to have a trace of these ideas? It seems I missed them. Or was it or IRC?

There are 2 big differences between your deck and mine: I am running counterspells and we have different mana bases. I run G/U only without off-colour moxen. You play multicolour to get more broken starting hands. How often do you have to mulligan?
Why do you run Monk Realist and Uktabi Orangutan rather than Nantuko Vigilante? That would make your deck 60 cards.
Isn't Genesis too slow?

[Queequeg]

I think Tog is a good idea after thinking about it, certainly better than the Quirion Ranger I have in my current build.

I think genisis is quite slow in any FEB build, so Thats why I am running reclaimation/Unearth.

[dicemanX]

Apart from tog, what about Withered Wretch as a possibility? The cc is rough, but the Wretch gives you the ability to edit your own graveyard (albeit with a mana cost) AND mess with your opponent's.

[Diablos8]

Quote (dicemanX @ May 26 2003,06:43)Apart from tog, what about Withered Wretch as a possibility? The cc is rough, but the Wretch gives you the ability to edit your own graveyard (albeit with a mana cost) AND mess with your opponent's.

The BB makes it hard to cast, so it's really useable from Shifter, and since the ability uses mana as opposed to Psychatog's free ability, Psychatog is a better choice(The only time I think doing stuff to the opponent's graveyard is in the mirror, which I have yet to see)

[TracerBullet]

Withered Wretch also doubles as Welder nullifyer, so I use one in my board.  Crypts are a pain in the ass because of the Sac requirement, and don't even think about Planar Void.



The biggest reason in my mind to play Venguer Mask over a G/U/b build of Breakfast is the more stable mana base.  A GUb build should be slightly faster, as Survival makes for a more consistent and more resiliant kill than the Masks.  The difference with Venguer is, you won't die to Blood Moon, or Wasteland, or Fire/Ice like you will with GUb.  The biggest advantage for GUb?  Chains.  The relative speed and number of must counters works out almost the same before board, with Duress's making GUb slightly faster, but after board, you lose access to probably the most powerful black SB card in the current metagame.  Chains turn Tog from a tough, ~50/50 matchup in to a handy win.  Before, the Tog player had to stall you until they could combo you out in one turn.  Chains adds another variable to that equation; they have to kill the Chains before they can go off (which means they're not killing the Survival, which means you'll probably have a turn to Drake whichever critter they use).  Chains is huge, and the second biggest reason I'm not playing Venguer (I don't have the masks being the first   )

[IvoryGargoyle]

So I'm curious. This is my version of FEB that I came up with on my own. I have a beatdown metagame. But I'm not sure what I'm "suppose" to have and what I really should have in a beatdown metagame. So, this is what I have plus sideboard:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Shoreline Ranger
1 Gilded Drake
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Morphling (I like this over Gigapede)
1 Palinchron
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Withered Wretch
1 Phage, The Untouchable
1 Squee, Goblin Dude
1 Crater Hellion
1 Reya Dawnbringer
2 Phyrexian Dread guys

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Board:
2 Plaguebearer
1 Hypnox
2 Withered Wretch
1 Lyrist
2 Uktabi Orangutan
1 naturalize
2 BEB
1 FTK
2 Illusionary Mask
1 Ravenous Baloth

So, thoughts? What on earth am I missing? Thanx!