Full English Breakfast

[Queequeg]

Recently I have taken an interest in survival builds, mostly Full English Breakfast. I dug up previous post and had a good read, and came up with this concept build. The build is based around using Phage for the kill over naught. The design is totally untested at the moment and only exsists on paper. The Deck...

May 03
Black Pudding
by Queequeg

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Volrath’s Shapeshifter

1 Phage, The untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

1 Genesis
1 Reya, Dawnbringer
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

1 Hypnox
1 Woodripper
1 Druid Lyricist
1 Crater Hellion

4 Impulse
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Regrowth

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots

4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine


SB- very rougth very!
1 Viserar, the dreadfull
1 Plague Bearer
1 Meddling Mage
1 Withered Wretch
1 Ravenous Balthor
4 Oath of Ghouls
? I said rough

Card Analyse.

Phage, the untouchable:

Previously to its release the Flowstone Hellion/Phyrexian Dreadnaught combo was used for a kill. Whilst Morphling is commonly included for is evasion abilities with this combo. Phage has not to replace this widely because the feeling off unnecessary overkill that Phage brings to a flying 23/1 Trampler. However Phage standalone is arguably better, only needing to deal a single point of damage for victory. The obvious flaw comes when you consider that without creatures such as Morphling, Flowstone Hellion and naught it lacks the essential Haste, Flying and Trample abilities to reliably deal damage. Hence the Morphling/Hellion/Naught combo has remained staple.

Akroma, Angle of Wrath:

This card makes Phage playable in FEB. Since Akroma possesses all the properties of the Hellion/Naught set up, namely Trample, Haste and Flying it makes the Phage much more effective at dealing that single point of lethal damage. It Evades for the best part burn and Smothers, plus passes by keg and Shaman without the need for dedicating a slot to morphling and Hellion.

Hypnox:

This also makes Morphling non targeting ability redundant. Hypnox serves to get rid of card like swords to Plowshares before you attack with Akroma/Phage.

Genesis:

This not only allows you to restack the top creature card, but reuse Woodripper and lyricists, plus give you eventually uncouterable shifters

Reya, Dawnbringer:

At first I was hesitant at the value of Reya, but after relising you can return Reya herself using a Shapeshifter/Reya  it made Recurring woodrippers, Druids and Hellions so much more viable.

Woodripper:

So much better than Gorilla shaman in this deck. Reanimate Reya, discard woodripper, destroy up to 3 artifacts with Woodripper/Shifter, return Woodripper to play before the Fading counters are check, shifter converts destroy 3 more artifacts. Rinse, Repeat,Dry. This is the weapon of choice verse TnT and Ductape.

CraterHellion:

Reusable Board clearance for desperate situations.

Impulse:

4 turn extra to Survival.

Cabal therapy, Duress:

This is open to quite a bit of disscusion, I choose these over Force of will and mana leak, because firstly Force of will can't be supported consistantly and proactive disruption works better than reactive with the Shifters. Since casting force of will at a crucial moment will render shifter dead in the water, At least Duress and therapy can puck out the disenchant effects and counters before I lay Survival.

[Solaran_X]

Without Morphling...I got one word for you.

Moat.

It'll stop Phage in her tracks, and you'll end up just having to go beatdown route with Akroma or Reya.

For Breakfast, I will ALWAYS use Phyrexian Dreadnaught with Phage sideboarded. Why?

Because just like the true full english breakfast...my deck is full of fat. And I think a 20/4 Untargetable Flying Trampler is just a little fatter than a 5/5...

EDIT :

Here is my FEB decklist, and justifications.

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Flowstone Hellion
1 Gilded Drake
1 Hypnox
1 Morphling
2 Mystic Snake
1 Reya Dawnbringer
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Tradewind Rider
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Wall of Roots
Spells
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Mana Leak
1 Regrowth
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Vampiric Tutor
Lands
4 Bayou
4 City of Brass
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
1 Dwarven Miner
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Gilded Drake
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Illusionary Mask
1 Masticore
4 Oath of Ghouls
1 Ophidian
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Rootwater Thief
1 Shard Phoenix

1. Phyrexian Dreadnought - classic kill. Why? Because he's fat. When FEB was intially created, he was the fattest kid on the block. Now, the Cloudscrapper has that title - but Dreadnought is still king.

2. Birds of Paradise - acceleration. If there is one thing green is good at, it's acceleration. True, they are 0/1 and can miss with your Shifters, but it's a chance you have to take for the speed they provide.

3. Flowstone Hellion - makes fatboy fatter. 'Nuff said.

4. Gilded Drake - now this is a fun card. Your opponent has a big fattie and you want it...cast the Drake. He gets a 3/3, and you get a fattie. It's even more fun when you put him in the graveyard and cast a Shifter...watch your opponent try to figure out the Shifter while you get his fattie.

5. Morphling - this is how Dreadnoughts get badass. Flying and Untargetablity. Nice...

6. Mystic Snake - now here is a controversial card. I love it, personally. First, it's a counterspell that can be Survivalled for. Second, when it's used, it doesn't mess with your Shapeshifters.

7. Tradewind Rider - anti-GAT tech. Return a fat Dryad to it's owner's hand, or a beefy Psychatog.

8. Squee, Goblin Nabob - turns Survival into a G casting cost Demonic Tutor every turn.

9. Wall of Roots - more acceleration.

My sideboard is designed to handle a wide metagame, and I like how it preforms. But the sideboard is strictly metagame decision, so I can't help you with it.

[Aroxisis]

Quote
Hypnox:

This also makes Morphling non targeting ability redundant. Hypnox serves to get rid of card like swords to Plowshares before you attack with Akroma/Phage.

How does this work? I had the understanding that Hypnox's CIP ability only worked if it was the top card in your graveyard when Shapeshifter comes into play. If that does happen, you can survival into another creature and their hand never comes back.  

[Solaran_X]

That is how it works. You Survival a Hypnox to the top of your graveyard and send a Shapeshifter into play from your hand. When it resolves, it assumes all of the Hypnox's abilities, including it's CIP effect. When you Survival something else, Hypnox doesn't leave play - it merely turns into something else. And once it's something else, it can die and they're hand is gone permanently.

[Zharradan]

Quote (Solaran_X @ May 20 2003,09:48)Without Morphling...I got one word for you.

Moat.

It'll stop Phage in her tracks, and you'll end up just having to go beatdown route with Akroma or Reya.

Surely the gameplan with this deck is to play a Shapeshifter with Akroma on top, declare attack and then before damage you survival out your Phage.
Moat doesn't do much to help there..

[doublej20]

Quote (Solaran_X @ May 19 2003,19:48)Without Morphling...I got one word for you.

Moat.

It'll stop Phage in her tracks, and you'll end up just having to go beatdown route with Akroma or Reya.

Thanks for the tip, but Moat is IRRELEVANT. Any of the three flyers are enough to simply put damage on the stack and THEN use Phage.

[Queequeg]

There has been some misunderstanding.

Quote (Zharradan Posted on May 20 2003,00:32)

Quote Quote (Solaran_X @ May 20 2003,09:48)
Without Morphling...I got one word for you.

Moat.

It'll stop Phage in her tracks, and you'll end up just having to go beatdown route with Akroma or Reya.

Surely the gameplan with this deck is to play a Shapeshifter with Akroma on top, declare attack and then before damage you survival out your Phage.
Moat doesn't do much to help there

Zharradan has the correct understanding of the stratergy I had in mind.

In revison just to make clear.

I chose this config because it potentially can do all that the Morphling/Hellion/naught combo and more but with fewer cards

1. Drop Hypnox in the graveyard.
2. Cast Shifter, CIP Resolves= no plowshares ect
3. If shifter is countered replay with genesis
4. Same turn Drop akroma, Attack. Akroma has flying haste and trample so dealing damage should be a problem.
5. Switch to Phage when damage is locked in the stack
6. damage is assigned by Phage. Kill Reloves.

Iam not entirely sure pints 5 and 6 are correct. I am sure that phages ability will trigger once the damage is locked?

[TracerBullet]

Is Woodripper really necessary?  If you're capable of making him a Reya EoT, shouldn't you also be capable of swinging for the win next turn?  What artifacts are you going to be getting rid of that are so problematic?

[Queequeg]

This is true, and infact once you have the survival engine out theres no reason to not play for the phage kill. Unless you are faced with a tight suitation where you can only survival once and the phage kill can't be performed but I think fetching CraterHellion would be more effective verse TnT than a wood ripper. Against ductape theres always the possibility that it could tangle up your mana sources, still with 4 BOP, 4 walls of roots this might not be a problem.

Often I think most FEB build pact to many utility creatures that are made redundant because you can pull a letal kill straight away.

On a seperate note, I had a thought that flash back is important in a deck like this. If all my instants have flashback then it would make it easier to clear away unnessary crap from my graveyard.

EDIT:

after looking at the Flashback cards this little number caught my attention.

Krosan Reclamation
Color= Green  Type= Instant  Cost= 1G JU(U)  
Text (JU): Flashback {G}. ; Target player shuffles up to two target cards from his or her graveyard into his or her library.  


I can't see a mainboard situation where druid/woodripper are a must, the only enchantment that will really hurt would be humility which druid can't destroy anyway. If I was to sideout Woodripper and Druid I could find room for at least 2.

reclamation can reshuffle clutter in your graveyard, allow you to restack its order, has flash back itself so don'st litter the place and can give you a life line against Tormod's Crypt.

[Diablos8]

I've tested this deck roughly for 5 months, and I think Palinchron should be added. It makes the kill atleast a turn faster.

Cephalid Inkshouder has replaced Morphling. It's ability is free and it's untargetablity > flying. That's why we have Elvish/Druid Lyrist in the deck, for stuff like Moat.

If you are using the traiditional FEB Build(Dreadnought/Hellion) I strongly suggest playing Mask. I used 2 of them when FEB was my main deck of choice, and I find Mask/Nought to be not only a good fast kill, but it's also harder to disrupt than the Shapeshifter combo.


On the note of Ripper vs. Crater Hellion against TnT, It depends on the situation. If they have active Welders in play, go for the Crater Hellion. If Welder isn't there, go for the Wooderipper(also knocks out Tangle Wire). Crater Hellion however is a bit risky since it will most likely whipe out the rest of your board.

[SummenSaugen]

Actually, the current best version for this deck I've seen is in the unregistered forum, posted by a friend of mine called ill_dawg, aka Adam.  Myself and other people from Hadley (BilltheDuck, Hulk3Rules, etc) can attest that his version is very strong and likely close to an optimal list.  He has recently cut a lot of blue spells to be less reliant on Force of Will and has added more black for added disruption, to remove problems like Swords without the Hypnox being necessary, and to fight control of all types at the same time.  I believe his list looks quite a bit like this.

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Volrath's Shapeshifter
4x Unearth

2x Phage the Untouchable
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Cephalid Inkshrouder
1x Psychatog
1x Quirion Ranger

4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy

1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
2x Sylvan Library
2x Lim-Dul's Vault

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Roots
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Bayou
4x Tropical Island
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest
2x City of Brass
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald

The spirit guides allow one to go from combo pieces in hand to winning without needing more than a single green mana to activate Survival and find them.  Unearth is great because you can win right then without breaking the survival chain.  The Akroma/Phage kill makes life gain not an issue, Moat never a problem, etc etc, and it's extremely hard to stop.  For the things that do stop it, there are eight spells to peel cards from the hand, and four of them come back.  Plus, there are LOTS of stupid tricks with Psychatog and Ranger that can make things like Wasteland not say game over.

I can't count how many times it's looked like I've had control over the board, just to see him combo me out anyway with a little help from those two creatures.  You should really give them a try.

[Queequeg]

Palinchron is intreasting but would also mean you couldn't use Hypnox CIP effect. I think Hypnox is more important since it can solve the problem of creature removal, and buys you a turn itself. Unless you are in the situation where you need a kill that turn, ie verse aggro.

Inkshrouder is nice, but dosn't have haste. Its a possibility I would consider over Akroma.

However by running akroma Moat is no longer a threat, and so you free up slots, this was the whole piont of the thread.

[SummenSaugen]

Inkshrouder gets around things like Maze of Ith, which is seeing a lot of play right now.

[Diablos8]

Quote (Queequeg @ May 20 2003,13:55)Palinchron is intreasting but would also mean you couldn't use Hypnox CIP effect. I think Hypnox is more important since it can solve the problem of creature removal, and buys you a turn itself. Unless you are in the situation where you need a kill that turn, ie verse aggro.

Inkshrouder is nice, but dosn't have haste. Its a possibility I would consider over Akroma.

However by running akroma Moat is no longer a threat, and so you free up slots, this was the whole piont of the thread.

I was considering it over Morphling. Akroma/Hellion has to stay because of the haste, but Inkshrouder is nice because he isn't targetable for free and unblockable(which is basically flying to anything outside of Moat)

[SummenSaugen]

I don't feel Hellion is necessary at all anymore.  FEB doesn't need damage to kill, and having it as a backup option isn't as useful as a second Phage.  There is no time in competitive vintage when dealing your opponent damage is better than making them lose right now.

Oh, and Inkshrouder is not only untargetable and unblockable, but also a free discard.

[Chen]

I still run the hellion in my build over akroma simply for the fact that I CAN cast it if I have to. Also, though this doesnt come up to often, if you happen to have 2 shifters out you cant use Akroma (or Phage for that matter) since they're legends.

[TracerBullet]

The fact that you can cast it is really non-consequential.  What's more important are the instances where you'll have a Shapeshifter down and not a Survival.  In that case, you'd much rather have an Akroma.


Even if you have two Shifties down, it shouldn't matter that you're going to lose one to the Legend rule.  If you're swinging with the Phage, you really don't much care.

[Diablos8]

Quote (TracerBullet @ May 21 2003,02:15)Even if you have two Shifties down, it shouldn't matter that you're going to lose one to the Legend rule.  If you're swinging with the Phage, you really don't much care.

It can matter if your declaring attackers with both of them, then discard Akroma, then one of the Shapeshifters goes on top of the graveyard, making the other one not do anything.

[carl]

Quote (TracerBullet @ May 21 2003,11:15)Even if you have two Shifties down, it shouldn't matter that you're going to lose one to the Legend rule.  If you're swinging with the Phage, you really don't much care.

You are going to lose both Shapeshifter. It does matter.

420.5e If two or more Legends or legendary permanents with the same name are in play, all except the one that has been a Legend or legendary permanent with that name the longest are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called "the Legend rule." In the event of a tie, each Legend or legendary permanent with the same name is put into its owner's graveyard. (If two permanents have the same name but only one is a Legend or is legendary, this rule doesn't apply.)

[SummenSaugen]

Either way, what kind of a jackass playing a deck with the better kill would put two out anyway?  If you're that stupid you deserve to lose both...

[Solaran_X]

That is one danger with Shapeshifters. If you got more than one in play at a time, and put a Legend on top of your graveyard...ALL of the Shapeshifters die. Another reason I run Dreadnoughts over Phage.

Although you may notice I do SB Phage and a pair of Masks. A 20/4 Untargetable Flying Trampler is a much more reliable kill in this current environment, especially with the Mazes of Ith that are floating around.

I'm not saying Phage isn't useful, I'm just saying you shouldn't rely on her for your victory.

[SummenSaugen]

It's not a danger at all if you play the deck correctly.  And explain to me how a blockable non-flying 20/4 is more reliable than a pro red, pro black, haste, flying, trample, first strike, doesn't have to tap to attack creature?  Maze of Ith hits both, chief.  Morphling is cute, but when Maze hits, you pitch Inkshrouder to find Phage.  If you need the evasion, pitch whatever for Phage, and pitch Inkshrouder for Akroma.  Discard Akroma to Inkshrouder and activate survival, pitching Phage with damage on the stack.  Phage even lets you kill with a bird of paradise, in case someone burns your birds.

Oh, and the mana costs involved.
Pitch Morphling, put untargetability on the stack, pitch hellion, pitch dreadnought
UGGG

Pitch Inkshrouder, discard Phage
G

Much faster.  Did I mention Wasteland kills your combo too?  Not just stops it, but also kills your shifter.  It wouldn't be too big a deal, except you're also not running Unearth.

[Solaran_X]

Please explain to me how Maze of Ith hits a 20/4 UNTARGETABLE Flying Trampler?

And Unearth is a Sorcery. So you can't do it in response to a Wasteland hitting a nonbasic and killing your whole attack. Which is why TWO Dreadnoughts are run instead of one. If someone DOES do something to disrupt my attack, I merely pay G again to survival up ANOTHER Dreadnought. It may not be a 20/4 Untargetable Flying Trampler, but it is still a 12/12 Trampler that will either a) require alot of chump blocking and probably kill off all of his creatures or b) do 12 to my opponent's head.

EDIT :

Let's compare "Black Pudding" to regular FEB by category.

"Black Pudding"
-Combo and Win-
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Volrath’s Shapeshifter
1 Phage, the Untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
-Utility-
1 Genesis
1 Reya Dawnbringer
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Hypnox
1 Woodripper
1 Druid Lyricist
1 Crater Hellion
-Search / Dig-
4 Impulse
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Regrowth
-Disruption/Protection-
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
-Acceleration-
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
-Mana Sources/Mana Search-
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 City of Brass
-Utility Lands-
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Standard Full English Breakfast
-Combo and Win-
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Flowstone Hellion
1 Morphling
-Utility-
1 Gilded Drake
1 Hypnox
1 Reya Dawnbringer
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Tradewind Rider
-Search / Dig-
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Regrowth
1 Vampiric Tutor
-Disruption/Protection-
2 Mystic Snake
4 Duress
4 Mana Leak
-Acceleration-
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
-Mana Sources / Mana Search-
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Bayou
4 City of Brass
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
-Utility Lands-
None

Combo and Win

For combo, both decks use the same components. 4 Survival of the Fittest and 4 Volrath's Shapeshifter. Makes sense.

The win in "Black Pudding" relies on Akroma, Angel of Wrath getting through, and then survivaling up Phage, the Untouchable. Now, this is good in theory, but there are some holes in it.
#1 - Maze of Ith : Cephalid Inkshrouder ( which is not maindecked ) is an answer, but it is not present 1st game.
#2 - COP : Black / Story Circle : Both of these prevent all combat damage from 1 source. Therefore, once you survival up Phage, all they have to do is pay 1 and prevent damage from a black source - which is Phage. If you allow Akroma to deal the damage, and then surival up Phage - no go. They accepted damage from Akroma, and the attack phase would end. Survivaling up Phage now is worthless.
Mana Cost for Win - GG

The win in a standard FEB deck involves Flowstone Hellion and Phyrexian Dreadnought, with Morphling for evasion ( if neccessary ). It is a little more simplified, and more effective - in my opinion. A Morphling is survivaled up, and you give the Shapeshifter Untargetability and Flying until end of turn ( if needed ). Then you survival up Flowstone Hellion and use it's 0 : +1/-1 ability eight times, putting them on the stack. In response, you survival Dreadnought, and let the eight +1/-1s resolve, giving you a 20/4 Untargetable Flying Trampler. The holes in the Akroma / Phage win?
#1 - Maze of Ith : Shapeshifter is untargetable. Maze of Ith cannot touch it.
#2 - COP : Artifacts : Who plays COP : Artifacts? No one. And Story Circle cannot name Artifacts.
Mana Cost for Win ( with Morphling ) - UUGGG
Mana Cost for Win ( without Morphling ) - GG

Edge? FEB gets the edge with this one. While the Morphling MAY slow down the combo by a single turn, it is not that major of a setback. And I'd rather pay an extra UUG for insurance than risk my win for pure speed.

Utility

Utility is purely a metagame aspect. But let's look at what is roughly covered by these two different decks.

"Black Pudding"

1 Genesis - anti-control measure, allows you to recycle Shapeshifters and such easily.
1 Reya Dawnbringer - another anti-control measure, allowing you to recur large threats from your graveyard for free.
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob - used with Survival of the Fittest for one "free" Survival a turn.
1 Hypnox - Mind Twist that removes their hand from the game permanently for 1UU. And once the Shifter turns into something else, their hand is gone forever.
1 Woodripper - anti-artifact measure. I'm assuming a TnT presence, or Ducktape presence, in the metagame.
1 Druid Lyricist - anti-enchantment measure. For random annoying enchantments, such as COP : Black.
1 Crater Hellion - weenie-killer and beatstick.

Standard FEB

1 Gilded Drake - steals large creatures, and gives them a simple 3/3 Flyer in return.
1 Hypnox - same as above.
1 Reya Dawnbringer - same as above.
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob - same as above.
1 Tradewind Rider - returns troublesome permanents to their owner's hand at instant speed.

Edge? This is a purely metagamed call. There is no true edge here, although I would say the edge in a random metagame would fall to standard FEB, since it can steal the best creature an opponent has and bounce any permanent that can be targeted.

Search / Dig

The edge in this category goes to "Black Pudding". Both decks feature Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Regrowth. However, "Black Pudding" runs four Impulses whereas FEB is merely running a single Ancestral Recall.

Edge? "Black Pudding" for more dig.

Disruption / Protection

"Black Pudding"
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

Very good at hand picking, with Duress to see what is there and Cabal Therapy to nail some more.

FEB
2 Mystic Snake
4 Duress
4 Mana Leak

Duress does the exact same job in FEB as it does in "Black Pudding". Very useful card. Also run are four Mana Leaks, for reactive answers to annoying spells and two Mystic Snakes. Why the two Snakes? Because they are counterspells that can be survivaled for. Also, they cannot be hit with a Duress either.

Edge? FEB has more versatility than "Black Pudding" in this category. "Black Pudding" is purely proactive defense, which FEB runs both proactive and reactive answers.

Acceleration

This category cannot be argued, as both decks run the same creature-based acceleration. There is no edge here, it is a tie.

Mana Sources / Mana Search

"Black Pudding"
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 City of Brass

FEB
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 City of Brass
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

This comes down to pure numbers. "Black Pudding" runs sixteen lands, four of which are fetchlands. FEB runs the exact same sixteen lands, plus a Black Lotus and all  five Moxen. This allows for possibly two, or even three or four, mana available on FEB's first turn, either to cast a Survival or to Duress and then use a Mana Leak on the opponent's turn.

Edge? Obviously it goes to FEB on this one.

Utility Lands

No contest here. "Black Pudding" is running five Strips, whereas FEB is running none. While the Strips may be useful late game, early game they are useless as they produce only colorless mana.

Edge? "Black Pudding" because FEB has no Strips in it's deck.

Make your own decision on what type of FEB deck to play. But in an unknown metagame, FEB would be far more reliable than "Black Pudding". As final count stands...

"Black Pudding"
2 Edges, 1 Tie

FEB
4 Edges, 1 Tie

[Diablos8]

Quote (Solaran_X @ May 21 2003,13:14)And Unearth is a Sorcery. So you can't do it in response to a Wasteland hitting a nonbasic and killing your whole attack.

That's a reason why I run 1-2 Illusionary Mask in the maindeck(I play the Dreadnought version) and I normally play 1-2 of dreadnought and Mask in the sideboard if I need to transform the deck. Wasteland and other removal spells completely destroy the deck, so Mask/Nought is the best idea to get around it.

I'm not saying Unearth is bad, because it's totally kicks ass, but I feel it's obsolete in FEB because of the ability to disrupt it. It's also a win condition that can't be survivaled for.

[Solaran_X]

I also include two Masks in my sideboard, for the same reasons. I can always SB in them and run a Mask deck of sorts, if I need too. Although I am thinking of rebuilding the whole SB to include four Masks and other shit I need to change FEB into a dedicated Mask deck.

[Diablos8]

I like 2 Mask in the maindeck and 2 Mask(2 Nought in the sb as well) sideboard so I can do more of a trasformation of Masknought, and sideboard out the rest of the combo, etc.

[SummenSaugen]

Wow, you guys have given me a bunch to respond to.  I'll start with some earlier responses I missed and move on to the recent stuff.

There was a quote I was going to be quoting here about Palinchron, but it seems to have disappeared.  Simply put, it only increases your speed if you have five mana available already (three for hardcast into the palinchron, and two for survival chaining) and in which case it's more efficient to be pitching Akroma and Phage and winning.  

Quote Palinchron is intreasting but would also mean you couldn't use Hypnox CIP effect. I think Hypnox is more important since it can solve the problem of creature removal, and buys you a turn itself. Unless you are in the situation where you need a kill that turn, ie verse aggro.

Inkshrouder is nice, but dosn't have haste. Its a possibility I would consider over Akroma

Hypnox is a cute trick but it's a bigger pain to set up than it's worth.  More often than not, you'll want to be winning this turn rather than wasting the turn with Hypnox, especially since your opponent could potentially draw into Swords anyway.

Never, ever, EVER cut AKROMA for INKSHROUDER.  BOTH of these cards should be included.  If you can find room in your deck for chaff like Woodripper, there is absolutely NO reason to not run both of these.

Quote I still run the hellion in my build over akroma simply for the fact that I CAN cast it if I have to. Also, though this doesnt come up to often, if you happen to have 2 shifters out you cant use Akroma (or Phage for that matter) since they're legends.

I already addressed half of this question, but here it goes anyway.  Hardcasting a Flowstone Hellion should never be your game plan, ever.  It's about as smart as hardcasting Squee for no reason (because as we all know, he will be STPed and you will lose).  Also, nobody should ever have two shifters on the board, mainly because of the legend thing but also if one gets killed it won't mess up the other one enough for something to block or whatever.

Quote Although you may notice I do SB Phage and a pair of Masks. A 20/4 Untargetable Flying Trampler is a much more reliable kill in this current environment, especially with the Mazes of Ith that are floating around.

I'm not saying Phage isn't useful, I'm just saying you shouldn't rely on her for your victory.

How is trying to deal twenty with a fragile artifact creature requiring twice the set up time more reliable than trying to deal one with half the manpower and built in pro:red?  Also, if Maze of Ith is the problem, how is that fragile creature better than an untargetable unblockable Phage?

Quote Please explain to me how Maze of Ith hits a 20/4 UNTARGETABLE Flying Trampler?

The same way it hits an Inkshrouded Phage that costs half the mana, except mine can't be blocked by a pump knight and destroyed.

Quote If someone DOES do something to disrupt my attack, I merely pay G again to survival up ANOTHER Dreadnought.

How is this better than survivaling up another Phage and just winning this turn anyway?

Quote ...but it is still a 12/12 Trampler that will either a) require alot of chump blocking and probably kill off all of his creatures or b) do 12 to my opponent's head.

Or be disenchanted, seal of cleansinged, naturalized, aura mutationed, welded, or again disrupted.  Oh, and generally it won't cost a G, because your most common form of disruptive threat is a wasteland, which kills an 0/1 'Shifter with eight +1/-1s on the stack.

Quote And Unearth is a Sorcery. So you can't do it in response to a Wasteland hitting a nonbasic and killing your whole attack.

I am aware of this, but paying BG is better than 1UUGG, I hear.  Especially since you need two creatures with your method.

Quote #1 - Maze of Ith : Cephalid Inkshrouder ( which is not maindecked ) is an answer, but it is not present 1st game.

It should be.

Quote #2 - COP : Black / Story Circle

These aren't really a threat, as Story Circle is far too slow (except off a Lotus) and COP Black is extremely rare today.  Besides which, most FEBs now pack Nantuko Vigilante, which is more than fast enough against decks like Parfait that will actually be running things like Story Circle.

Quote #1 - Maze of Ith : Shapeshifter is untargetable. Maze of Ith cannot touch it.
#2 - COP : Artifacts : Who plays COP : Artifacts? No one. And Story Circle cannot name Artifacts.

And also, far more common than Maze of Ith, COP: Black, and Story Circle combined?  Disenchant effects.  Everyone short of sligh has them, and they are a MASSIVE drawback for you.

Quote This comes down to pure numbers. "Black Pudding" runs sixteen lands, four of which are fetchlands. FEB runs the exact same sixteen lands, plus a Black Lotus and all  five Moxen. This allows for possibly two, or even three or four, mana available on FEB's first turn, either to cast a Survival or to Duress and then use a Mana Leak on the opponent's turn.

Yes, and unless you're very lucky and get a green producing land and an emerald, you're still only survivaling once per turn.  

Quote I like 2 Mask in the maindeck and 2 Mask(2 Nought in the sb as well) sideboard so I can do more of a trasformation of Masknought, and sideboard out the rest of the combo, etc.

If you intend to go this route, I highly recommend reading up on Vengeur Masque by Carl.  It's a pretty fun (and funny) deck, and it puts up a good fight against the field.  It's also kind of wacky, as it runs very few tutors (by very few I mean zero last I checked, short of Survival anyhow)

[Solaran_X]

My responses -

Quote How is trying to deal twenty with a fragile artifact creature requiring twice the set up time more reliable than trying to deal one with half the manpower and built in pro:red?  Also, if Maze of Ith is the problem, how is that fragile creature better than an untargetable unblockable Phage?

No Morphling in your build, and no maindeck Cephalid Inkshrouder. How is Phage untargetable now? As it is right now, your deck can do NOTHING against Maze of Ith.

Quote The same way it hits an Inkshrouded Phage that costs half the mana, except mine can't be blocked by a pump knight and destroyed.

How is a pump knight gonna block a FLYING creature?

Quote How is this better than survivaling up another Phage and just winning this turn anyway?

You have ONE Phage in your build. Where are you going to get another Phage to survival?

Quote Yes, and unless you're very lucky and get a green producing land and an emerald, you're still only survivaling once per turn.

Let's see. Tropical Island - produces blue and GREEN. Bayou - produces black and GREEN. Cities of Brass - makes ANY color, including GREEN. Fetchlands - they fetch dual lands that produce GREEN mana. Survival costs 1G - which means ANY land and a Mox allows a first turn Surivial of the Fittest. It isn't that hard...

[Gabethebabe]

Quote (SummenSaugen @ May 22 2003,03:05)

Quote I still run the hellion in my build over akroma simply for the fact that I CAN cast it if I have to. Also, though this doesnt come up to often, if you happen to have 2 shifters out you cant use Akroma (or Phage for that matter) since they're legends.

I already addressed half of this question, but here it goes anyway.  Hardcasting a Flowstone Hellion should never be your game plan, ever.  It's about as smart as hardcasting Squee for no reason (because as we all know, he will be STPed and you will lose).

Hardcasting Flowstone Hellion is certainly not your main plan, but I´ve won games with my FEB doing damage with Flowstone Hellion. He kicks for 5 and has haste and can be casted with BoP or CoB. It happens. It is good to have things in your deck that can win you games on their own if the combo fails. Things like Genesis, Morphling or Hellion.

[Hawk]

Quote (Solaran_X @ May 21 2003,21:51)As it is right now, your deck can do NOTHING against Maze of Ith.

How about 5 Strips?
But imho the Inkshrouder should still be main.

Hawk