Hulk Smash and Keeper comparison

[PucktheCat]

In another thread someone (I think it was Rico Suave) asked why anyone would play Keeper over Hulk Smash in today's game.  That question interested me, but that thread wasn't the place to discuss it.  Fortunaly, this thread is.

To focus disccusion I have posted two decklists that I think highlight the essential differences between the archetypes.

Hulk Smash                                             Keeper
Counterspells:
4 Mana Drain                                              4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will                                            4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection                                             3 Duress

Tutor/Search:
4 Brainstorm                                               4 Brainstorm
2 Merchant Scroll                                        1 Merchant Scroll
                                                               1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor                                         1 Demonic Tutor
2 Cunning Wish                                           4 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition

Draw:
1 Ancestral Recall                                        1 Ancestral Recall
2 Sylvan Library                                          1 Skeletal Scrying
4 Accumulated Knowledge                             1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gush                                                      1 Future Sight
                                                               1 Mind Twist

Broken:
1 Time Walk                                           1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will                                        1 Yawgmoth's Will
                                                               1 Balance

Kill/Removal:
4 Psychatog                                             2 Morphling
                                                             2 Swords to Plowshares

Mana:
15 Blue Lands                                           15 Blue Lands
1 Strip Mine                                              1 Strip Mine
1 Swamp                                                    3 Wasteland
5 Moxen                                                    4 Moxen
                                                             1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria                                1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus                                       1 Black Lotus

There are some superficial differences that I think can be ignored for the sake of this discussion.  For example the mana bases are somewhat different, but the details of that aren't important.  Also the choice between Duress and Misdirection seems fairly inconsequential.  Hulk could easily run Duress and Keeper has often run Misdirection.

Setting aside the minor differences it seems there are two major exchanges of cards between the two decks.  The first is in the Kill/Removal slot, where the obviously the 'tog replaces the Morphling and the StPs.  The second is the draw suites.  Hulk commits 7 slots to the Intuition/AK engine while Keeper uses somewhat less efficent draw spells like Scrying and Future Sight and saves slots in the deck.  Those extra slots are filled with Wastelands, Duress and Balance.

What do other people think of this breakdown?  Are AK and Psychatog inherently linked?  Could Keeper run the Intuition/AK engine and keep its old win condition?  Could Hulk drop AK and use less demanding draw spells and still have room for more utility?  More to the point does this breakdown say anything about which deck you should chose under what circumstances?

Leo

[Matt The Great]

I don't know about the draw spells but Keeper's much higher Wasteland count should definitely say something about which environs to play it in.

[Grendal]

Quote
Could Keeper run the Intuition/AK engine and keep its old win condition?  

Keeper doesn't need to run the same engine.  The engine keeper runs now is perfectly fine, and with the mere addition of a single Accumulated Knowledge to the sideboard, a Keeper player running wishes has essentially nuetralized Hulk Smashes 7 card Draw Engine of Int/Ack.   Basically a Keeper player can sit back and allow the Tog player to do what they want in terms of Intuition and the like, and then reap the rewards for all there hard work with the use of just one wish.  

Quote
More to the point does this breakdown say anything about which deck you should chose under what circumstances?

Keeper with the help of Cunning Wish should be the superior deck in terms of having to counter.   The biggest threat it would have to counter would probably be the tog, or a very large Accumulated Knowledge.   The Keeper deck runs ways to deal with the Tog, so that adds to the Keepers arsenal as well.   The Hulk Smash you have listed will have to relly very heavily on those 2 Cunning Wishes in the Keeper match up.   If the Keeper player resolves a Morphling and the Tog player can not keep a creature on the table to chump block its game if the Tog player can't wish for a Diabolic or the like.  The same could very much be said if the Keeper player resolves a Future Sight.

The Togs, although they are strong creatures, the only protection they have is what is currently in the hand of the player controlling them.   Again Keepers maindeck removal mixxed with the the insane ability to wish for more should be the dominant factor here imo.

Touching on the other Draw Capabilities of both.   The Sylvan Library isn't what it used to be.   Yes its still a great card, but if you use it to insanely to draw a lot and reduce your life into the danger zone, you may quickly find your game is a lot shorter than you expected it to be.

- Grendal

[Mith]

I've switched over to Hulk from Keeper...and so far I haven't been dissapointed. My list is pretty much what you've written out, except that I run two duress in place of the two sylvan library. That, combined with more duress in the board have provided me with more than enough disruption to beat Keeper. Yes Keeper has a lot of active spells that can hurt you...but you have to keep in mind that Hulk can just "go off" in one turn. Since this deck runs more draw, more counters, AND has the ability to just go off...I've had no problem beating Keeper.

My main contentions with Hulk at the moment are the draw engine and the sideboard. I have not yet played against the mirror match...and I'm certainly not looking forward to that. The Intuition/AccKnowledge system is some-not-good when your opponent can do it too...and if Hulk really takes off, then that will be a serious problem.

My board has been pretty rotational lately...I've been experimenting with Deed vs. Hurkyl's, the # of REB, running a lone Smother...and of course being able to bring in two Deep Analysis. So far the one card that I truly love is: Lim-Dul's Vault. My god is this card some good...you can set up into the win at EOT and just smash face. In this deck (and Rector Trix) it's just too good. The cards that I feel are too vital to consider dropping are:
1. Berserk: I don't think I need to explain this one
2. Naturalize: there are just too many things that could stand in the way of your win...and having the protection is worth everything.
3. BEB: I fear the bloodmoon...a lot
4. Duress: Being able to run four Duress has allowed me to squeeze wins past counters on more ocassions than I can remember.
5. REB: I'm running three now...and I'm not sure that the deck needs four, but that's always up for contention.
The rest of the spots are flexible...Mana Short and Mind Twist have been good in the right context. Deep Anal I'm sure can pull its weight...and Hurkyl's vs. Deed will probably just end up being a metagame decision.

In the end, there are only TWO cards that I miss from Keeper:
Balance and Future Sight....well, Balance I can live without...but I REALLY miss Future Sight...a lot...

[PucktheCat]

Quote Keeper with the help of Cunning Wish should be the superior deck in terms of having to counter.

I don't see how you can say this.  The lists I present are virtually identical in their countering power.  Including Cunning Wish the Keeper is running 14 and Hulk is running 12, but Hulk also has more early game cantrips and draw (including an extra Merchant Scroll) so it is quite possible it will win the all-important battles in the first 4 turns.

Quote Touching on the other Draw Capabilities of both.   The Sylvan Library isn't what it used to be.   Yes its still a great card, but if you use it to insanely to draw a lot and reduce your life into the danger zone, you may quickly find your game is a lot shorter than you expected it to be.

Of course Hulk doesn't have to run Libraries.  It could easily run a FoF and another Misdirection or a Duress.  I believe JP made just that switch, actually.

As for the 'togs, the way I see it is in the matchup between these decks the 'tog is pretty much just better than 2 StP and 2 'phling.  Think about it this way:  if the Hulk deck is losing on card advantage at the moment it can play the Tog and try for the win.  If the Keeper is losing and draw a StP it will have to sit and wait until Hulk decides it is ready before it can use it.  By that time Keeper has probably gone from losing to lost in all but name.  Bascially, when it comes to Tog vs. StP, Keeper suffers from the 'no wrong threats, only wrong solutions' problem.

Leo

[Grendal]

Quote
I don't see how you can say this.  The lists I present are virtually identical in their countering power.  Including Cunning Wish the Keeper is running 14 and Hulk is running 12, but Hulk also has more early game cantrips and draw (including an extra Merchant Scroll) so it is quite possible it will win the all-important battles in the first 4 turns.

Hulk's Countering
4 Drains
4 Force
2 Misdirection
2 Cunning Wish
2 Merchant
-----------------
14


Keeper's Countering
-----------------
4 Drains
4 Force
4 Wish
3 Duress
1 Merchant
1 Mystical Tutor
-----------------
17

Now do remember to take into fact that if Hulk casts a Tog, the keeper player doesn't have to initially use a counter on it, he/she can instead opt to StP it, thereby bringing the Keeper Player's Countering ability (technically to 19).   Not to mention Balance...  (20).

However if the Keeper Player goes to lay a Morphling, the Tog player (MUST) pretty much counter it or use one his wishes that have already been factored in as permission to get a Diabolic.   Not changing his number at all, still leaving him at 14 control type spells.

The Keeper player with 1 card (Wish) and 1 Sideboard Card (Accumulated Knowledge) can compete with Hulk's 7 card Draw Engine, and if played (after Hulk intuitions) actually OUT Draw Hulk with its own engine.

Now I assume you were only speaking of a match with Keeper vs Hulk.  In terms of general playing, Keeper has a much easier time dealing with more versatile decks.  TnT/Stax could cause Hulk some serious problems, that having 4 Wishes and Main Deck anti-Creature will actually give the Keeper player the edge over all.

Quote
Of course Hulk doesn't have to run Libraries.  It could easily run a FoF and another Misdirection or a Duress.  I believe JP made just that switch, actually.

IMO that would be better than the Sylvan's vs a Control player, but losing the Sylvan's vs other decks I think would kind of hurt Tog's ability to deal with other decks.  Its main way it wins is that if Tog resolves, and attacks, it can potentially be the game right there.  The sooner it can draw into that tog the better.

Quote
As for the 'togs, the way I see it is in the matchup between these decks the 'tog is pretty much just better than 2 StP and 2 'phling.  Think about it this way:  if the Hulk deck is losing on card advantage at the moment it can play the Tog and try for the win.  If the Keeper is losing and draw a StP it will have to sit and wait until Hulk decides it is ready before it can use it.  By that time Keeper has probably gone from losing to lost in all but name.  Bascially, when it comes to Tog vs. StP, Keeper suffers from the 'no wrong threats, only wrong solutions' problem.

Your analogy of the Keeper player having to sit on a StP until the time when the tog goes off is a little wrong.   Keeper plays Brainstorm/Fetchlands for the same reason tog does, and that is to recycle cards if they are of no use at that moment in time.   If the Keeper player feels they are sitting pretty with control cards, and the Tog player does not have a Tog out, then it is highly likely that the StP will be recycled with a Brainstorm rather than sitting dead in his hand.

I don't believe Keeper suffers from Wrong Solutions...  There is pretty much nothing in this game that a (StP/Diabolic/Disenchant/Red Blast) can't solve from the sideboard, and with 4 Cunning Wish main deck as you have here, finding that right solution isn't going to be all that difficult.

All in all I think the match-up is a very close match-up, please don't let me comments above make it seem as though I am saying Keeper will win by a landslide, because that is not what I am getting at.   I do however think that vs a varied field, that Keeper will have a much easier time throughout the day than the Hulk Smash player will have, and imo the Keeper player has a slight advantage in the (Vs. Hulk Smash) matchup.

Just my .02 Cents...
- Grendal

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Grendal @ July 01 2003,11:58)I do however think that vs a varied field, that Keeper will have a much easier time throughout the day than the Hulk Smash player will have, and imo the Keeper player has a slight advantage in the (Vs. Hulk Smash) matchup.

Um, my experience has been the opposite.  Keeper's matches are only like 50/50.  Hulk's "good" matches are like 75/25, ranging to 50/50 or thereabouts.  Hulk is the thing to take to a varied field because of it's ability to combo opponents out in a timely fashion.    

As for Hulk vs. Keeper, I haven't actually seen anybody board AK.  When that happens though, Hulk decks can SB Deep Analysis and be fine.

You can talk about Keeper's cards lined up against Hulk's cards all day long, but Hulk's cards have more synergy with each other which you don't see on paper.  Even then, if you're going to compare card for card, at least consider the red splashes too.

[Grendal]

Quote You can talk about Keeper's cards lined up against Hulk's cards all day long, but Hulk's cards have more synergy with each other which you don't see on paper.  Even then, if you're going to compare card for card, at least consider the red splashes too.

Even if I included the Red Splashes...  I am assuming of course that you are reffering to Red Blasts and the like.   I would first off assume that they have similiar amounts in their boards.   Standard Keeper packs 4, I believe the same is true for Hulk Smash.   So those pretty much negate each other, save for the fact that Hulk's Red Blasts will do no good against Keeper's Duress...

Either deck can out draw and/or out counter the other on any given day.   Both of which are capable of extreme brokeness and quick wins...   Its nearly a coin flip to see which one has the advantage, save for new tech or the like making perhaps a small difference in the play of the two decks.

- Grendal

[Rico Suave]

Um, so what?  Hulk can do the same thing (Duress+REB).

If the match-up truly is a split, then the rest of the metagame is what determines which deck to play.  So you'd have to determine whether Tog or Keeper is better against the rest of the metagame.  I'll let you decide that for yourself.

[Grendal]

Quote Um, so what?  Hulk can do the same thing (Duress+REB).

If the match-up truly is a split, then the rest of the metagame is what determines which deck to play.  So you'd have to determine whether Tog or Keeper is better against the rest of the metagame.  I'll let you decide that for yourself.

I was merely taking the decks you listed above and comparing them.   I do not believe the deck listed above to be the ideal Keeper either...   so going by your examples above was the basis to my arguement...   If you are bringing different configurations into the factor, well then that makes for a whole world of valid arguements and what not based on which archetype is more sound.

I do agree with you on one thing though.   He who Meta games his deck best, will defiantly have the edge... thats for sure.

- Grendal

[PucktheCat]

Quote However if the Keeper Player goes to lay a Morphling, the Tog player (MUST) pretty much counter it or use one his wishes that have already been factored in as permission to get a Diabolic.   Not changing his number at all, still leaving him at 14 control type spells.

Why must he counter it?  Couldn't he lay a tog?

Quote Now do remember to take into fact that if Hulk casts a Tog, the keeper player doesn't have to initially use a counter on it, he/she can instead opt to StP it, thereby bringing the Keeper Player's Countering ability (technically to 19).   Not to mention Balance...  (20).

Yes StP can kill a Psychatog dead, no question about it.  But if we count StP as permission, as you do, and we count morphling against Hulk's permission, as you do, then we must also count the Tog against Keeper's permission.  That leaves the picture much less rosey for Keeper.  Also, remember that Hulk is at least theoretically a slightly smaller deck.

Quote Your analogy of the Keeper player having to sit on a StP until the time when the tog goes off is a little wrong.   Keeper plays Brainstorm/Fetchlands for the same reason tog does, and that is to recycle cards if they are of no use at that moment in time.   If the Keeper player feels they are sitting pretty with control cards, and the Tog player does not have a Tog out, then it is highly likely that the StP will be recycled with a Brainstorm rather than sitting dead in his hand.

I realize that the damage from wrong solutions is something keeper is quite capable of minimizing, but that doesn't mean it isn't a real risk.  Hulk can also shuffle away its bad cards, remember, so you are essentially playing a guessing game in this matchup:  Do I think you have kept the Swords or not?  The problem is that Keeper bears all the risk of this guessing game.  If I am playing Hulk and I guess wrong we trade 1-1.  That may not be what I hoped for, but it is hardly game losing.  However if you are wrong, and shuffle away a swords when I have a tog or keep a swords when I don't then there is a chance you simply lose the game right there as I either run you over with Tog or resolve a draw spell.

What do people think of this deck?

Keeper Smash!
Permission (11):
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
2 Duress

Search/Tutor (11):
4 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Draw (6):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Future Sight
1 Mind Twist
1 Sylvan Library

Broken (2):
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Kill/Removal (5):
4 Psychatog
1 Fire/Ice

Mana (25):
5 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
4 Moxen
1 Sol Ring/5th Mox

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Gush
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Naturalize
1 Smother/Edict
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Vampiric Tutor/Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Berserk
3 Pernicious Deed

Is this a viable deck?  A horrific grafting of two good ideas into one bad one?

Leo

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Keeper's Countering
-----------------
4 Drains
4 Force
4 Wish
3 Duress
1 Merchant
1 Mystical Tutor
-----------------
17

not that i agree with this style of analysis, but since mystical is card disadvantage, shouldn't it not count, since its a tutor?

Quote Yes StP can kill a Psychatog dead, no question about it.  But if we count StP as permission, as you do, and we count morphling against Hulk's permission, as you do, then we must also count the Tog against Keeper's permission.

unless you're packing some kind of wonder or jump tech, psychatog is not permission/removal against keeper.  stp stops tog, tog does not stop morphling.  what it will do is force morphling to stay at home (or chump) instead of attacking, but it can't stop morphling if you're at a low life total.

a better argument is that while keeper only has 2 spells that are win conditions, psychatog has 4, which makes the possibility of not having a REB/STP when tog resolves even more of an issue.  it also makes those fractional situations where you want to use a pitch counter, but have morphling as your only blue card more difficult to calculate.

Quote The Keeper player with 1 card (Wish) and 1 Sideboard Card (Accumulated Knowledge) can compete with Hulk's 7 card Draw Engine, and if played (after Hulk intuitions) actually OUT Draw Hulk with its own engine.

what makes you think you're resolving a cunning wish (or its target) after your opponent draws 7 cards?


i think these decks are similar enough to be almost even.  i think its difficult to argue tog is better against a broad field, just because it can combo.  what tog does have going for it, is its consistency and synergy.  however, if you look at recent tournament results, keeper is the one placing high at top tournaments (some of this has to do with a greater frequency of play of course), and tog has yet to really prove itself.

[PucktheCat]

Quote stp stops tog, tog does not stop morphling

Umm . . . yes it does?  Tog stops morphling (actually either kills it or the player behind it) and is still there to talk about it.  Can't say that about StP.

I don't mean to dwell on this point to much, but I just don't understand why people think Swords is some kind of panacea against Hulk.  Swords against Hulk is like running Blue Elemental Blasts against Keeper.  It handles a key card efficiently, but it never gets you any advantage.

The reason people switched to swords back when Tog came onto the scene was not because it was so good against Tog, but because everything else Keeper ran was even worse.  Switching to swords didn't much affect aggro matchups and perceptibly helped against Tog, so it was done.  But I don't think that should be taken to mean swords somehow trumps Tog.  Swords is much better against Ophidian, for example than tog, because the 'phid is something you play to get an advantage, Tog is something you play after you have the advantage.

Leo

[Grendal]

Quote
Yes StP can kill a Psychatog dead, no question about it.  But if we count StP as permission, as you do, and we count morphling against Hulk's permission, as you do, then we must also count the Tog against Keeper's permission.

I don't believe I counted Morphling in any of my counts up top...  You did...

Quote
 realize that the damage from wrong solutions is something keeper is quite capable of minimizing, but that doesn't mean it isn't a real risk.  Hulk can also shuffle away its bad cards, remember, so you are essentially playing a guessing game in this matchup:  Do I think you have kept the Swords or not?  The problem is that Keeper bears all the risk of this guessing game.  If I am playing Hulk and I guess wrong we trade 1-1.  That may not be what I hoped for, but it is hardly game losing.  However if you are wrong, and shuffle away a swords when I have a tog or keep a swords when I don't then there is a chance you simply lose the game right there as I either run you over with Tog or resolve a draw spell.

 
The Keeper player shuffling away say a StP in hand for other cards via a Brainstorm/Fetch does not constitute the Keeper player being (unprepared).   I would venture to say that an StP being traded in, would be traded in for something of equal or greater value.  (Drain / Restricted Brokeness).   So saying that shuffing the StP back in is a gamble is just plain nuts.

Quote
what makes you think you're resolving a cunning wish (or its target) after your opponent draws 7 cards?

The same can be said though...  What makes you think he is drawing 7 cards, and not just tossing that 4th Accumulated Knowledge to the graveyard with the rest of em?   I said I would let him pull off the engine part  (i.e.  the fetching of them to the graveyard)  I don't believe I ever said I would allow him to resolve that spell once he did it.

- Grendal

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Quote  
stp stops tog, tog does not stop morphling


Umm . . . yes it does?  Tog stops morphling (actually either kills it or the player behind it) and is still there to talk about it.  Can't say that about StP

hmm, you're at 5 life, you topdeck tog.  yay, you're still dead.

your entire statement rests on the assumption that the tog is at lethal capacity (and the morphling is not).  while this is not difficult to attain, you have to remember that if you swing into a morphling (assuming its midgame and the keeper player is untapped), you may have to do upwards of 10 damage to it to kill it.  that means it will be a few more turns until you can actually swing for the win.  this situation is not as easy now that gush is restricted, and it gives keeper opportunity to find a solution.

what is more probable is that you have gained enough card advantage to force through a cunning wish for edict/berserk.  this is why tog beats morphling, because the game was lost 2-3 turns before with a resolved AK.  Tog is not removal, he is the best win-more card ever printed (at least against control he's win more, against aggro he is plain nasty).

i'm certainly not saying morphling is better than tog, or that stp is a hoser against tog.  all i'm saying is that its the draw engine, not the creature that kills in the control mirror.

[Lord of the Goats]

ok, you can throw the number of counter argument out the window because the number is very close and can go either way. hulk can run duress, more than 2 wishes etc without it being an worse (and imo much better). i don't see keeper running many more counters than listed. given a particular version that's a valid argument, but i think that most people who have tested hulk will agree that the posted list is running less counters than normal.

second, stp is utter crap in the matchup. tog isn't coming down until you win and at that point stp won't hit it. until then it's pretty dead against control... but no more dead than the 2 morph and 2 stp. at least the togs pitch to fow, stp won't.  

i know from testing that the hulk we have in our gauntlet has a very good keeper matchup. it also has a much better tnt and phid match than keeper. at this point i think that hulk should win every control mirror in the format.

[Grendal]

Quote ok, you can throw the number of counter argument out the window because the number is very close and can go either way. hulk can run duress, more than 2 wishes etc without it being an worse (and imo much better). i don't see keeper running many more counters than listed. given a particular version that's a valid argument, but i think that most people who have tested hulk will agree that the posted list is running less counters than normal.

I certainly won't argue that...  Both the Hulk I have tested and the keeper I have tested run fairly radically different counter bases than both decks listed...

Quote
second, stp is utter crap in the matchup. tog isn't coming down until you win and at that point stp won't hit it. until then it's pretty dead against control... but no more dead than the 2 morph and 2 stp. at least the togs pitch to fow, stp won't.  

I'll definatly argue that one...  Your argueing stone cold rules.   In a perfect world you are 100% correct that the Tog will not resolve till its a guarantee hit, and it also will be able to kill in the next turn for over 20.    The only problem is that in the real world that never holds true.   You play 4 togs for a reason.   There is nothing wrong with throwing one early for a gamble, or like you said pitching to a force, etc...    StP is a factor.    You mention that it won't come down till you are winning, but outside of playing a few duress, what other way do you have to disrupt me?    I very much see the Tog resolving, and a counter war ensuing over the following StP.   Or just the opposite...  A counter war ensuing over the Tog.   Even if you do win, more than likely both players are fairly low on cards in hand, and an StP could spell disaster for the tog player.

Something else a lot of Gro-A-Tog/Hulk players forget is that you can only (assume) you know what the other player is holding.   There is that chance that you attack with the tog, go buckwild with discarding from hand/gyard, only to be met with an StP and enough counters to back it up.   Now yes I know, that a smart tog player would never do such a thing...  (in a perfect world anyways)  :/

Quote i know from testing that the hulk we have in our gauntlet has a very good keeper matchup. it also has a much better tnt and phid match than keeper. at this point i think that hulk should win every control mirror in the format.

I to have tested this matchup, and several other match ups many times.   I find the Keeper vs Hulk match up to be extremely even for the most part.  My findings have concluded to me that Keeper had a slight edge...  ever so slight mind you.

I also find that Keeper can better handle the Mudd/Stax decks than Tog can.   But that may be more dependant on the various builds we are testing.   I mean when it comes right down to it, the difference between Hulk Smash and Keeper isn't that many cards...   They are all but the same deck, just with different kill, and slightly different draw mechanism.

- Grendal

[Zherbus]

There is lots of bickering, flawed logic, and overestimations throughout this thread. While alot of what has been said is factual, much of what has been discussed hasn't made any sense when compared to reality. I don't really know if I can do any better, but here is my take on the two decks since it has been turned into a Keeper vs. Hulk thread.

Hulk without the Intuition/AK draw engine (assuming it would be replaced by something close to Keepers draw spells or Ophidian) would be just an okay deck. Effectively you would be looking at OSE with Tog or UrbPhidian with Togs over Morphlings.

With the engine, Hulk is able to reliably Intuition/find Intuition (which is a Tutor worth countering, and many people don't). Once Intuition resolves, it's basically hard to break out of the lead Hulk just established. So you countered the following AK? Great, there is another they can easily Merchant Scroll up, RFG and Cunning Wish back, or topdeck and this time it's drawing 4. Bottom Line: It's the draw engine, not the rest of the pile.

Normally, the Intuition/AK engine is pretty bad. However its synergy in Hulk is amazing. Like Gush wasto Gro variants, Intuition/AK is to Hulk. Bottom Line: You can't really run Intuition/AK in Keeper, without making Keeper a weak Hulk deck.

Lastly, LotG said that Swords is utter crap against Hulk. He is dead on...and way off at the same time. Swords prevents Hulk from combo'ing Keeper out like it does to aggro. It gives Keeper a fighting chance by forcing it to play out the control battle which, believe it or not, Keeper can win. Basically, provided the Hulk player isn't greedy and holds off, he gets to be the favorite in this matchup, otherwise he just walks into spot removal all over the place.

My 2 cents.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (Zherbus @ July 02 2003,09:11)Lastly, LotG said that Swords is utter crap against Hulk. He is dead on...and way off at the same time. Swords prevents Hulk from combo'ing Keeper out like it does to aggro. It gives Keeper a fighting chance by forcing it to play out the control battle which, believe it or not, Keeper can win. Basically, provided the Hulk player isn't greedy and holds off, he gets to be the favorite in this matchup, otherwise he just walks into spot removal all over the place.

My 2 cents.

i compeletly agree. however, i think it's more a funtion of cheap removal (a la red blast as well) than specifically stp.

also, hulk plays 4 tog for a reason.... aggro. against control the first 3 can pitch to fow. there's no reason to play a tog before you're in control of the game, as zherbus said, if the tog player isn't greedy he's the favorite.

[Maxx Matt]

With the configuration presented by  Puckthecat you can see how easily the keeper player could break the infamous draw engine of the hulk build: Ebony Charm. with four wish and the strong Will Greveyard Recursion it is one of the best Cunning Wish's targets to slow down the Hulk Player. i know that it could be countered and blocked as other spells, but 4 wish could put a lot of pressure and duress maindeck could easily leave the way open for casting it safely.

3 duress + 4 wish + 2 sword is , IMHO of course, the best configuration to deal with an Atog Player.  it let you to crush his hand if possible or trade counter with duress, leaving the way open to your key spell.

not consideringbroken first-second turn plays and playing the control mirror a lot ( if Hulk vs. Keeper could be defined a Control Mirror...  ),  i notice how the opening hand is the sword that could decide the victory or the loss of all single matches. Over that i can add that if the opening hand doesn't contain a single FoW... well.. you too often lose!  
 
and this isn't so funny to realize...



my two cents



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Maxx Matt
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