$T4KS: "The Four Thousand Dollar Solution"

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5273

"No format sanctioned by the DCI is as fast, brutal, and ruthless as Competitive Type One Magic. You think winning the die roll is important in Type Two? You could be dead before you get a turn in Type One! For a prison deck to be one of the very best decks in such a format, it must be frighteningly powerful - and $T4KS is as highly powered as the format will permit, abusing more restricted cards than most combo decks."

Toad and myself spent many, many hours on this article.  It has gone through numerous revisions and edits and has been a LONG time in the making.  We have really taken pains to make sure it is as interesting as possible while being heavily content based.  We hope you like it and want to open this thread up to any questions at all you might have about the deck, sideboard, or how to play it.  Toad has given a very nice tournament report in the Tournament Report Forum with this deck.  I suggest you check it out.  Toad and myself look forward to hearing your comments and/or questions.

Steve Menendian\n\n

[waSP]

Excellent read!  Thank you for the enlightenment.  It did improve my understanding of the deck, which surprised me a little as I've seen it played quite a bit and played it myself.  Keep up the good work guys.

[Gabethebabe]

Excellent article, very good read.

[MarkPharaoh]

You and Toad both have outdone yourselves, well done.  I need to be spoon fed when it comes to sideboarding so if you wouldn't mind, can you post on how you sideboard in the major matchups? thanks.

[Gabethebabe]

One question: how do you deck you opponent with Jar and prevent decking yourself?

[MoreFling]

I like calling it just 'Stax' better.

On Time Vault: why didn't you mention you can skip the next 100 turns? Time Vault can be used to deck your opponent if you have the lock in place. I would've thought that to be at least of some significance.

And for the record, Humility shuts down your whole game-plan, since it stops Welders and Karn from doing what they do best: win the game for you. I would say parfait is pretty much 50/50 on you, especially when prepared, which a good player will be.

I'm surprised the way you value your chances against Rector Trix. I've been playing Stax against Roy Thijssen, him with Rector Trix, and I won about 70/30 easily before sideboarding. I'll admit I wasn't drawing the worst hands, but really, I don't see why one should be *that* scared. Sure, you can lose if they draw broken openings. They can lose if you do. It's a fact of T1.

all-in-all, great work on the article Smmenen and Toad.

[Gabethebabe]

Morefling: I know Roy and I can´t say he is the most talented Magic player I´ve seen (he makes the most noise that´s for sure) , so maybe that has something to do with it

[dandan]

Excellent article, a little frightening to anyone thinking of starting Type I (expensive, broken early game, etc) but I guess that's the brutal reality of our format (to be honest newbies in all formats are cannon-fodder).

[Zharradan]

Quote (MoreFling @ July 02 2003,15:31)I like calling it just 'Stax' better.

You may notice that "$T4KS" is "stax" or "stacks" in l33t-speak.

[Toast]

good read steve

@morefling

I am not sure why it was not included but I do know why it is a bad kill card.... with the 100 turns that have been given to the other player they have no penalty for sitting with no permanents on the board, which means they can build up a massive amount of moxen in their hand and then hope to screw you in one last assault

[Fever]

I know i have said this before, but i wanted to do it publically. Thank you Steve and Matt, for compiling what is perhaps the most complete primer i have ever read.

This is a must read for anyone, even if you are not interested in the deck.  

[Os-Vegeta]

Wow.  Excellent, excellent article!  I loved it, and the wait was worth it!  Steve and Matt, both of you presented the quality I expected you would, and more.  This really is the best read I have had the privilege to lay eyes on in quite some time.\n\n

[Terevaune]

That is one of the best articles I have ever read.  I have a friend who is interested in the deck, and I'm going to send him that article right now.  Good job.  My only complaint is that you guys need to write more.

[Moxlotus]

Quote (Toast @ July 02 2003,08:23)good read steve

@morefling

I am not sure why it was not included but I do know why it is a bad kill card.... with the 100 turns that have been given to the other player they have no penalty for sitting with no permanents on the board, which means they can build up a massive amount of moxen in their hand and then hope to screw you in one last assault

I agree that Vault isn't that great of a kill card, but the player won't be able to play the moxen because of the multiple Spheres that should be on the table.

I think this is a great article. I particularly like the section on how to use the stack during your upkeep to show how unsymmetrical the lock cards are.

[Smmenen]

Which additionally illustrates how conditional Time Vault is.  I honestly think Time Vault has its benefits - like I said in the article, and possibly even deserves a spot over the Windfall, but it certainly is NOT a win condition.  It serves other purposes.  

I appreciate the positive feedback.  But I was hoping you guys had more questions .  

Steve

[Toad]

Thanks for the feedback

I wanted to reply to MoreFling too :

Quote And for the record, Humility shuts down your whole game-plan, since it stops Welders and Karn from doing what they do best: win the game for you. I would say parfait is pretty much 50/50 on you, especially when prepared, which a good player will be.

Of course, Humility is really annoying when it hits the board, but it doesn't shut down our plan. Stax packs one of the best removals ever printed in Magic : Smokestack. If you manage to drop a Smokestack, Humility is not that frightening. All what you have to do is to keep adding counters on it until your opponent is forced to sacrifice it. Furthermore, Stax is not TNT : it doesn't need Welders to win. Welders are great because you have a total control on your lock components for example, but you can win without drawing them.

And Humility is a 4CC sorcery speed card, which means it will be really hard to cast because most of the time you'll just be able to play spells at your upkeep. This is why the card I fear the more in Parfait is Abolish.

[Saucemaster]

First off, of course, great article.  It's the most complete, thorough primer I've seen in a long time.  And the build looks great, particularly the manabase.  My initial comments/questions:

(1): All four Meditates?  You obviously put tremendous testing into this; I assume you were always happy to see one in your opening hand?  Almost all the other lists I've seen ran 3, so what made you want the extra one?

(2):

Quote Which additionally illustrates how conditional Time Vault is.  I honestly think Time Vault has its benefits - like I said in the article, and possibly even deserves a spot over the Windfall, but it certainly is NOT a win condition.  It serves other purposes.  

Actually, I've seen Time Vault used for the kill a few times here.  I'm not sure it earns its spot in the deck, but for example I saw a player at C&J's last week testing a little before the tournament, and he won a game by playing out two Spheres and two Smokestacks, each with two counters, and then at his opponent's EOT he'd just say "untap Time Vault, take an extra turn."  His opponent decked because he had no way to break the lock.

The questions, of course, are whether this will be fast enough if you're down a game in game two of a match in tournament play, and whether Time Vault is useful as anything *but* a kill condition.

(3) With just the one Karn and Trisk for the win, have you ever found yourself in a position where both were RFG and you had to go for Memory Jar recursion?

[mrieff]

Great article!!!


1)  How effective do you think Serenity is against your deck?

2)  Im not that much of an expert with regard to artifact decks, so this might not make much sense. But how effective is Twister? You will have to face more Forces and Duresses because of it. And the negative synergy with Welder is obvious. Don't you have enough card-drawing already, especially for a prison deck?

[mrieff]

Quote (Gabethebabe @ July 02 2003,02:11)Morefling: I know Roy and I can´t say he is the most talented Magic player I´ve seen (he makes the most noise that´s for sure) , so maybe that has something to do with it

He does have 5 lifetime Pro Tour points, if I'm correct.
I'm sure you have several more  because you're quite confident in your judgement?

[Toad]

Thanks for the good questions Saucemaster.

Quote (Saucemaster @ July 02 2003,11:00)1): All four Meditates?  You obviously put tremendous testing into this; I assume you were always happy to see one in your opening hand?  Almost all the other lists I've seen ran 3, so what made you want the extra one?

Yes, all four Meditates. We started with 3, like the Dülmen's list, but upped the count to four. Even in your opening hand, Meditate is a key card. First turn Tangle Wire, second turn Meditate is really strong. Builds running Time Vault and 3 Meditate should give a try to the 4 Meditate plan. Skipping one turn is almost always enough with active Smokestacks, and both cards do that, Meditate allowing you to draw 4 at the same time. And Meditate can be useful when you're losing, as a deseperate move hoping to draw into goodies, whereas Time Vault will sit useless.

Quote (Saucemaster @ July 02 2003,11:00)The questions, of course, are whether this will be fast enough if you're down a game in game two of a match in tournament play, and whether Time Vault is useful as anything *but* a kill condition.

The problem I see with Time Vault is that it's dead alone. I can understand that people run it i order to skip turns, but I can't understand how they can use it as a kill card. As you said, when you're one game down, or in the additionnal turns, Karn can win games right now. Time Vault will make your opponent suffer for 60 turns. Even if he's locked, he still can take, say, 30 seconds at turn without obviously stalling. And get a draw or a 1-0 win. Karn is nice on its own, as a moxen eater, a 0/8 wall against Dryads, or a first turn threat for beatdown.

Quote (Saucemaster @ July 02 2003,11:00)(3) With just the one Karn and Trisk for the win, have you ever found yourself in a position where both were RFG and you had to go for Memory Jar recursion?

I've found myself in that position once. Karn had been Sworded, and Triskelion Crypted. I've won thanks to ... Welder beatdown

Matthieu

[Smmenen]

Saucemaster,

Like I said in the article about Time Vault: But unlike Meditate, you don't get four cards into your hand as part of the deal.  That is quite a huge boost. I sort of feel like if you aren't playing four Meditates, it's similar to playing GAT with only three Gush.  

Steve

[MoreFling]

Quote (Zharradan @ July 02 2003,15:12)You may notice that "$T4KS" is "stax" or "stacks" in l33t-speak.

And what made you think I don't know that?

*smash somebodys face in*

@Gabethebabe: wtf? Roy talking IRL makes more sense than any post I've ever read from you. If you want to pick a fight, meet me at worlds, since I'm sure the greatness that is you is qualified.
I don't mind a good fight.

About Vault: Steve, I know it's not a great win conditions, certainly not compared to the other things you can do, but it can be a very useful utility card. Also, I was merely pointing it out because I thought it should have been included. It's no biggie it isn't, I can understand if you're not playing it (hell, I wouldn't use it myself), but I just thought the possibility was worth mentioning. I'm sure a lot of people (in general the ones less interested in stacks) don't realise the possibility. Also, it works when a full lock is in place, like it was pointed out above.

@Toad: I think you should think further then just 1 card. It's a combination of cards that can get humility resolved. I can do more then just lay a plains a turn and play humility when I've accumated enough. I know that's not going anywhere. I can play abolish, aura, seal. Ofcourse timely Wires will be annoying, and I never said it's a good matchup. I will say however, that I will be prepared, if I would play parfait.

[Smmenen]

Rudy, Oh I know it is a good utility card.  The Article itself says exactly that - it can be useful.  Read the article

Steve

[kl0wn]

Just to nitpick: when writing a primer, one would traditionally include a section on how to play against the deck that's featured in said primer. I understand that it's detrimental to the deck's success, but is (or at least used to be) a necesarry evil (which is one of the reasons why I've never written a primer on anything, since I'd rather win tournaments than get credit). The logic being that if it is truly as good as presented, then one would be able to win despite one's opponent knowing how to play against one's deck.

As a reader and Type 1 theorist, I'm more likely to take a two-sided argument seriously than one that is presented as "OMG!!1! WTF!! THIS DECK IS UNSTOPPABLE!!!1 ROOFL!!" Granted, that's exactly how the article comes off, but it is a bit one-sided. No deck is unbeatable and no deck should be presented as anything remotely resembling unbeatable.

All things considered, it was an excellent article. It just lacks a certain...shall we say...kryptonite? Hey, you said you wanted questions...

[MoreFling]

btw, on sideboarding, do you 2 (Steve and Matt) find yourself siding out Meditates often? I was playing the deck online, and I sided them out a lot, for better disruption.

So my question is: Aren't they only good for game 1, until you know what the best additional lock cards are?

ps: this is just wondering from my part, I didn't re-check the article to see if you touched upon this. If you have, I'm sorry for asking

[Smmenen]

I used to think that way.  But I changed my position.  The Meditates are too important - in part becuase they cast at instant speed, but also becuase they are assymetrical.  In most cases I side out the draw 7s first.


Steve

[Toad]

I never side out Meditates. Draw7 go out first : Windfall, then Wheel of Fortune, then Timetwister. If I *really* need to side out something else, I'd rather side out a Smokestack than a Meditate. Drawing 4 at instant speed is really superior to symetrical Draw7.

For the Humility issue MoreFling, I'm sorry if i was misunderstood. I don't underestimate the power of Parfait, and I know how Humility backed with Sceals, Aura can be annoying. I've playtested a lot against Parfait, and I know how hard this matchup can be.

[Vegeta2711]

Pretty damn good article. Just one thing, really really boring. ^^ Seriously when reading this last night I had problems focusing long enough to get through it. All the info was good, just make a joke or make something sound semi intresting. It sounded more like reading a term paper than someone's article. The only reason I mention this is 'cause I've written multiple articles before and have been caught in this trap before.

Just a thought, again I thought you 2 presented the info very clearly and insightfully.  

[Grand Inquisitor]

First, I'm glad we have articulate folk like you guys to represent the vintage community to the more general magic audience.

However, I do have a few questions/concerns.

1) Like Vegeta said, while informative, the article is a little dry.  Lighten up, Steve.

2) Like most other primers I've read, you make the matchups (with the exception of Trix) look much too favorable.

3)

Quote you still should manage to win pretty easily thanks to your brokenness and your high threat density

yes, you should beat mono-u, yes the deck is broken, but i thought high threat density was like, uh, i don't know, 8 land stompy.  This deck runs 29 sources.

4)

Quote However, our adjustments to the sideboard have dramatically altered this matchup to a very favorable matchup, with four Blood Moon and four Red Elemental Blast

These seem like similar tactics to TnT, and I don't see them lining up to play academy.

5)  Given the effects of the June restrictions, is now the right time for stax?  What I mean is:

1st, Gush leaving makes GAT, your prime target, gone from the format

2nd, With GAT gone, TnT, among other decks, become playable again

3rd, You said yourself that welders are key to the matchup

4th, They run survival and 2-3 Masticore/Trisks, you run 1 trisk and a tinker

5th, with Mask and TnT making a comback, and Prison becoming more well known, artifact hate should be at an all time high.

I know that Stax is a good deck in general, not just against GAT, but perhaps now isn't the best time for it to come in and define the metagame.

[Smmenen]

I'll let Toad feild this.  But I'd like to say first, that Stax is poised to be stronger than it has ever been.

Steve