TnT, what to play in SB vs. Staks and Hulk?

[Arex]

I think the 2 most popular decks right now are Staks and Hulk. Lots of Keeper players are moving from Keeper to Hulk, and lots of ppl are also trying the Staks decks. So I was wondering, for the TnT players, what are good defenses vs these 2 super good and powerful decks?

My current SB looks like this:

4 Natualize
4 REB
3 Tangle Wire
1 Genesis
1 Sex monkey
1 Bottle Gnomes

what should I change, besides everything?  

Any suggestions?

thanks in advance

Arex\n\n

[Toast]

Here are my suggestions:

Blood Moon is still a very potent SB card and I would try to fit that into your SB somewhere. If you do this it would also probably be beneficial to stick a forest into the maindeck if you don't have one already.

Rebs are very good against hulk because they kill off togs and counter most cards in the deck so those should stay in.

IMO tangle wire doesn't have a place in side, it either is a MD card or a card not to run at all. Some people like the card, some people don't but there is much more focused hate that you could run in your SB so i feel that the tangle wires are wasted slots.

Naturalize are key cards to have so the 4 you have are good choices (you might only need three, it depends on the number of artifact decks you encounter)

The stacks matchup pretty much comes down to neutralizing the other sides welders so you do have an advantage with 2 triskellions and anger(I am assuming you run these because they are pretty standard nowadays) compared to their 1 triskellion, but ways to screw it more are naturalize, and maybe tormod's crypt.

The Hulk matchup is about resolving early fat, rebs are a must...and tormod's crypt is nice to keep those togs from getting too beefy.

just focusing on these two decks I would try tormods crypt out in place of the tangle wires... against both decks tangle wires are sub par and t. crypt is pretty good.

also I prefer keldon vandals over sex monkey because it doubles as a beatstick.

[blatant self promotion]also if you have some free time try out my latest build of TnT with black....the added discard I find really helps both of these matchups and I have been having a lot of success with it. (Latest build is on Revisiting TnT p.3) I think it is a bit radical for most and only try it if you think it has potential.[/blatant self promotion]

[Arex]

thanks a lot. I liked your suggestions. I forgot that the last lsst spot in my Sideboard, was a T. Crypt.  Also, I'm playing 3 Blood Moon main deck and that is why I moved the Tangle Wires on to the board.

So, here is the SB so far:

4 REBS
4 Naturalize
1 Genesis (?)Is Genesis worth it or is it to slow?
1 T Crypt
1 Keldon Vandal (because it makes more sense because most of my mana will be red once blood moon is in place.
1 Bottle Gnomes

so, i can move the tangle wires back to the main deck, and move to the SB the 3 Blood Moons, or leave the Blood Moons main deck, get a 4th one and put it in the Board, and will leave me with 2 open spots. Would they be 2 more T. Crypts?

[Fishhead]

Quote 3 Blood Moon (v. GroTog, Keeper, Academy, TurboLand)
3 ReB
3 Powder Keg
3 Naturalize (v. mirror, Mask)
2 Bottle Gnome
1 Squee (v. Ebony Charm, Tormods Crypt)

This is what I played last time, expecting a field of Aggro.  Kegs were all purpose (and Weldable), but they are better against GAT than they would be against Hulk.  

I played 2 Gnomes because I expected that there would be lots of Sligh and didn't want to risk losing to it.

As for your SB, I think Genesis is too slow, and I think there should be one main deck artifact removal (either Uktabi, Mox Monkey or Karn).  Tangle Wires I think are best maindeck, they are more generally good than Blood Moon.  

One card that rocks the mirror and the Ducktape match is Artifact Mutation.  Give that one a spin.  

[Matt The Great]

Recently I have been totally convinced that Wires are amazing. It wins you games that you would lose if it were any other card, because it's total tempo advantage, and that tempo always means at least 4-10 more damage. It also doubles as a great defensive card. I would never go less than three maindeck.\n\n

[Toast]

I would probably swap the wires with the blood moons and I would also try to fit a couple of T.Crypts in there because lack of tutoring power makes a single crypt difficult to rely on. I would personally try 2 crypt and 3 naturalize.

 Genesis I support 100%, I think it is a priceless card to have in long matchups where the game would otherwise come down to a topdecking battle. Of all the tier 1 decks TnT is by far the worst at topdecking because of a lack of tutors/draw when there is no survival on the board, genesis can often save you in these bad situations, and prevent the control player from stabilizing and gaining control of the match.

[PhOeNiX]

TnT already has a pretty good matchup against Stax. It is able to keep up with Stax in permanents and is able to fuel Smokestack just as well as the Stax player. TnT also has the gamebreaking Goblin Welder against Stax.

If you still want some sideboard cards against Stax, you still have access to Naturalize, but more than that, Artifact Mutation. This card shuts completely shuts down Stax and gives you a massive boost in permanents.

Hulk is a pretty tricky matchup, especially if UBg. They run a couple Islands so they can work around Blood Moon. They can also bring in Pernicious Deed which is an absolute beating.

You do, however, have Red Elemental Blast, and will need 'em against the Intuion-packing, Psychatog-toting moster.

[Diablos8]

I also strongly recommend using the RGb version of TnT, which has access to Duress in addition to Blood Moon and REB. Black also gives you Demonic Tutor, which is always nice to get anything you want anytime you want, and black also has Oath of Ghouls. Oath of Ghouls can be really useful against Stax if they have an active Smokestack going, and you can just bring back creatures to help prevent Smokestacks ability for a short while. And it never hurts to recur Triskelion every turn .

[PhOeNiX]

In an environment with a lot of Stax and Hulk, then Black would be just awesome. MD Duress is a beating.

[jpmeyer]

Artifact Mutation for Stax.

I doubt black is better than black better against Hulk.  Duress is good, but if you have blue then you get Wonder which makes it significantly harder for them to race.  Duress also doesn't kill Psychatog, although REB can't hit Pernicious Deed.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (jpmeyer @ July 04 2003,21:04)I doubt black is better than black better against Hulk.  Duress is good, but if you have blue then you get Wonder which makes it significantly harder for them to race.  Duress also doesn't kill Psychatog, although REB can't hit Pernicious Deed.

filth 4L

[Godder]

And here's me thinking Black wasn't better than Black...

Which is better, Naturalize or Hull Breach?

[Diablos8]

Quote (Godder @ July 06 2003,08:03)And here's me thinking Black wasn't better than Black...

Which is better, Naturalize or Hull Breach?

Considering the topic is about Stax, I'd have to go with Naturalie. Hull Breach is great as it can hit 2 for the price of 1, but since it's a Sorcery, it can't get the Smokestack or Sphere at the end of turn, and will have to suffer through your own turn unable to cast Hull Breach or something.

[Arex]

Well after playtesting a little bit this weekend, my SB now looks like this:

3 Blood Moons (moved the Tangel Wires MD)
3 Naturailze (mirror, staks)
3 REB (control, staks, tog)
2 T. Crypt (Graveyard recursion)
1 Genesis (lots of creature removal, counters, etc)
1 Bouncer (vs Mask and Tog)
1 Powder Keg
1 Keldon Vandal

Note: I played yesterday vs. Dragon, and I was beat like 18 out of 19.  50 % or more of those matches, were Turn 1, 2, or 3 kills in favor of Dragon. Man, we need to do something about that stupid dragon and raise dead combo.    

Any other suggestions for my SB?

Thank in advance

Arex

[Moxlotus]

Isn't the 1 powder keg a little random? You can't search it out with Survival. You have to rely on drawing it, which seems a little random. Maybe add another crypt

[Arex]

oops, it is not powder keg, it is a Bottle Gnomes. Made the wrong Copy/Paste. My bad

[David Hernandez]

i've been playing both TnT and Stax, and i really think you need to add some Artifact Mutation's to the sideboard.  

The Bouncer is kind of cool.  I think Genesis is weak, and there are probably better choices.  If you are running only 1 Triskelion in the main deck, you might want to add a 2nd to the sideboard in place of Genesis.

--Dave

[PhOeNiX]

I normally ran just 4 Naturalizes in the SB. If I was expecting a lot of Stax or TnT, I would switch 2 Naturalizes for 2 Mutations. It's a really strong card.

[Fishhead]

Quote Note: I played yesterday vs. Dragon, and I was beat like 18 out of 19.

This you must just accept.    If you expect a lot of fast Combo in the meta, do not play TnT.  

By the time you add enough cards to your SB to even your chances against Combo you've weakened your matchups against the other decks in the field too much.

[Arex]

well, I'm trying to make my SB build for Gencon.  

[Arex]

@ David Hernandez, sorry, I forgot to let you know, I do play 2 Triskelions MD. I thought Genesis might be good, because you can actually reuse the Welders or the Lyrist in case it is necessary. I also run MD Anger and Wonder. Any, so maybe the Genesis spot might be used by another Naturalize / Artifact Mutation?

[jpmeyer]

Are there any matchups where you actually need the enchantment-killing aspect of Naturalize?  I honestly can't think of any decks out there where that is that important, and if you're going to say Parfait, aren't they slow enough that you can just go to town with Genesis if you need to kill their stuff?

[Matt The Great]

Well, Humility shuts off Elvish Lyrist pretty well, Genesis or no.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (jpmeyer @ July 07 2003,12:37)Are there any matchups where you actually need the enchantment-killing aspect of Naturalize?  I honestly can't think of any decks out there where that is that important, and if you're going to say Parfait, aren't they slow enough that you can just go to town with Genesis if you need to kill their stuff?

enchantments that must be dealt with:

survival of the fittest
future sight
control magic

so basically the mirror and u/r phid. not to mention random crap like energy flux and astral slide